Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

[Wilkystyle]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

I agree with MrBenis that all we would really need to fix this problem is to make tweaks to the detection/locking range, and possibly remove the the ability to track and kill friendlies.. (The millitary uses IFF systems to track targets, why can't we in BF2?)


The Idea:
What makes any SAM or AA site fearsome in real life? The ability to track and lock on to a plane that is far from being able to see it with the naked eye.


My Proposed Solution:
A patch that could let the AA sites lock on from a much greater distance. As of right now, by the time you see a plane coming, you have about a second to lock on, and pray that the missles can change direction fast enough to strike the plane.


The Pros:
1. If you could lock onto a plane long before he's within eyesight, that would give the missle more time to track the plane (making it more similar to a real life AA system).
2. With the current limitations on detection and lockon, the plane is so close that the missle has to make a much greater turn to stay locked on. If the AA site was able to track much farther out, then any attempts to dodge the missle would require much less drastic direction changes from the missle to remain locked on.


Possible Cons?
Yes, you could track a helicopter farther out, but since helicopters don't rely on quick direction changes or high speed to dodge a missle, would this really affect the threat that an AA site poses to a helicopter? My guess that the advantage wouldn't be as significant with a helicopter as it would be with an airplane.


What are everyone's thoughts on my idea?

[{S~C~O~R}Lethal]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

I dont see a problem with the AA system at all. If anyone thinks that you should be able to walk up to a AA press E and automatically shoot something down, you are incorrect. It is set-up where you actually might have to have some skill to use it. The AA uses a heat signal and the missles will go after whatever jet or heli is closest. No matter the lock (hence flares) Just because you lock-on to a target doesnt mean its a 100% kill. Learn how to use AA and you will be happy with the results.

[Banyan05]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

Lethal that's a ridiculous post in a thread that's trying to improve this game.

I agree that two of the suggestions here are taking good steps to offer a solution to the air unit supremacy. Proximity fuses and removing the friendly locks are great suggestions as well as extending the range that AA locks on targets.

I wish I could offer better suggestions within your requirements Gimp, but those that have already been offered are the best I could see. I appreciate you trying hold a civil discussion on this - it is ruining an otherwise great game. IMO, as people have become more and more skilled with jets and attak helo's, the gameplay has gone downhill. the spirit of the game is as a combined forces play, not a "shoot fish in a barrel" game for pilots.

[redrider]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

I was in the air force and would like to see the AA set like the soviet AA misles was. It explodes upon seeing that the missle is moving away from locked target. With an earlier lock, say about one second after sighting enemy air craft. So if you lock and fire AA and no evasive action is taken and no flare is droped a direct hit. Or say that the target is at 100 meters and pilot takes evasive action and drops no flares, missle goes 100 meters, 98 meters...eleven meters, ten meters, eleven meters ...Boom. I would also increase missle splash damage to 1.25 times what it is now. That is all. If changes are made in increments a balance should be achieved without to much trouble.

It looks like to me the air craft were intended to fight each other and pay little or no attention to ground objects. What has happened is the Aircraft bomb ground targets and pay little attention to each other. Nothing makes me madder than being bombed looking at the sky while waiting to respawn and seeing the jet on my team fly across the battlefield upside down...Red

[Donkey]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

I dont see a problem with the AA system at all. If anyone thinks that you should be able to walk up to a AA press E and automatically shoot something down, you are incorrect. It is set-up where you actually might have to have some skill to use it. The AA uses a heat signal and the missles will go after whatever jet or heli is closest. No matter the lock (hence flares) Just because you lock-on to a target doesnt mean its a 100% kill. Learn how to use AA and you will be happy with the results.

Exactly, I feel that a lot of the people posting on these topics are under the impression that the AA should instantly hit the target. This is so not the case, when using AA you need to line up your target properly ie not shoot at it from the side etc... We can all agree that the AA is rather good against helicopters, mostly because they are a much easier target then a jet screaching accross the sky at 1000mph....

I also really dont see the airpower dominance... I mean they do but its not at the point that on ever server you play you are constantly getting smoked by the jets...

Personally if they didnt change anythign I would be happy and knowing EA/DICE if they did change something it would just make things worse... and thats my 2 cents

[BRUTALITEEEEEEEEE]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

I have to disagree Donkey (about the airpower dominance)from what I expierienced last night. Wake Island.....oh man! It was sad....basically the game (for me) consisted of spawning, moving around a bit....being bombed.....dead. The WHOLE round. The same guy was just bombing, rearm, bomb the whole time. Yes, our fighters could have been keeping them busy but since everyone is SO caught up with stats they coulld care less and just want to bomb themselves.

Trying to nail a jet with the AA is nearly impossible but does happen from time to time. Helo's are fine, you can get them...hell, I took the same guy out 5 times with either a .50 cal or an AT rocket.

Everyone here makes good points but (IMO) it comes down to, there needs to either be a more effective means of taking out aircraft (stingers or something) or put some kind of limitations or something on the jets.

Until then, playing on the big maps with jets is kind of a downer for us ground pounders

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

I've logged more than enough time in a plane to say in the right hand AA is fine. I've said this many times over the PBF forums, but it has to do with firing at the plane with the right timing where the plane has an ideal trajectory and relative locations to the AA launcher. I've encountered certain individuals who have proven this to me as using the stationary/mobile AA they'll shoot me down three times in a row during a single round back to back. That's not luck, that's a superior understanding of how to properly use an AA launcher.

The only two modifications that need to be made are the following:

AA missiles should completely ignore friendly targets, it was a mistake to include this, flat out. Either that or completely remove any point loss/punishing for TKing with an AA missile.

The J-10, which is the only plane that I feel has too much of an edge versus AA, needs to be toned down with thrust/maneuverability that better matches the F-18/Mig-29. The other planes are much more vulnerable to AA, especially the bombers, which for all their offensive power are much more susceptible to AA missiles.

If AA was ever made more effective by increasing its hit-rate it'd ruin planes. I know some games where the enemy team is on the ball even I have difficulty surviving. If the enemy is smart I have almost no ability to retaliate because a smart AA user will exit the launcher after firing so they don't get killed by the pilot. At the very least even if you fail to kill a pilot because you've forced them to be evasive. If you don't make a conscious attempt to out turn missiles they will flat out hit you. Even then, missiles still hit me personally all the time (J-10 aside) and I've mastered AA evasion with the best K ratio of any pilot in the game. If I'm still getting hit all the time I can only manage the hell the average pilot experiences. When you've got a few people managing AA launcher effectively and intelligently then it's hell on earth for any pilot. When you've got a seeking missile that can hit its target on the other side of the map with amazing speed, damage and abundance, then you better damn well make sure not to make the accuracy perfect.

I'm not even going to go too much in to this final point, but pilots are the ultimate counter to other pilots. But it cannot be compared to say tank versus tank because airplanes adhere to a different dynamic which makes them much more of a threat to each other. When you move as fast as planes do you're pretty much always right up in each others faces. Plus, a pilot chasing another pilot essentially cripples both pilots from doing anything else. It's really easy to shoot down most pilots too (I've shot down well over 2,000 planes with a very high success rate). I remember when a buddy of mine came over when I was in the middle of a game PlaneWhoring. He made some offbeat comment about how invulnerable planes were. In reponse I proceeded to shut him up by shooting down the enemy pilots, which would take about 10 seconds from engaging them to shooting them down. I could hear a bit of a muffled laughter as he just realized first hand what fodder planes are to an experienced dogfighter. Not to mention once a pilot is shot down they'll extremely vulnerable as all planes are during take off. This can be seen perfectly demonstrated in the video I released as I keep the planes grounded for pretty much the entire game.

Finally, I can only wonder why this is such a hot topic, because in my experience efficient pilots are very rare. In about 200 hours logged I've only seen a very small handful of airplane pilots that do well. For every pilot I see at the top of the scoreboard, I typically see 20 helicopter pilots or 20 dedicated tank drivers to match. I don't play Karkand, Sharqi or Mashtuur, on my pilot profile, but from the time I have spent on these maps on my infantry profile it's even more slanted as the tanks/helicopters annihilate people will little opposition.

But sure, in the hands of someone as experienced and skilled as I am, and with the right circumstances an airplane can be scarey, I won't deny that, but then again that same thing can be said for any of the powerful vehicles in this game.

[vbl]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

I've logged more than enough time in a plane to say in the right hand AA is fine. I've said this many times over the PBF forums, but it has to do with firing at the plane with the right timing where the plane has an ideal trajectory and relative locations to the AA launcher. I've encountered certain individuals who have proven this to me as using the stationary/mobile AA they'll shoot me down three times in a row during a single round back to back. That's not luck, that's a superior understanding of how to properly use an AA launcher.

The only two modifications that need to be made are the following:

AA missiles should completely ignore friendly targets, it was a mistake to include this, flat out. Either that or completely remove any point loss/punishing for TKing with an AA missile.

The J-10, which is the only plane that I feel has too much of an edge versus AA, needs to be toned down with thrust/maneuverability that better matches the F-18/Mig-29. The other planes are much more vulnerable to AA, especially the bombers, which for all their offensive power are much more susceptible to AA missiles.

If AA was ever made more effective by increasing its hit-rate it'd ruin planes. I know some games where the enemy team is on the ball even I have difficulty surviving. If the enemy is smart I have almost no ability to retaliate because a smart AA user will exit the launcher after firing so they don't get killed by the pilot. At the very least even if you fail to kill a pilot because you've forced them to be evasive. If you don't make a conscious attempt to out turn missiles they will flat out hit you. Even then, missiles still hit me personally all the time (J-10 aside) and I've mastered AA evasion with the best K ratio of any pilot in the game. If I'm still getting hit all the time I can only manage the hell the average pilot experiences. When you've got a few people managing AA launcher effectively and intelligently then it's hell on earth for any pilot. When you've got a seeking missile that can hit its target on the other side of the map with amazing speed, damage and abundance, then you better damn well make sure not to make the accuracy perfect.

I'm not even going to go too much in to this final point, but pilots are the ultimate counter to other pilots. But it cannot be compared to say tank versus tank because airplanes adhere to a different dynamic which makes them much more of a threat to each other. When you move as fast as planes do you're pretty much always right up in each others faces. Plus, a pilot chasing another pilot essentially cripples both pilots from doing anything else. It's really easy to shoot down most pilots too (I've shot down well over 2,000 planes with a very high success rate). I remember when a buddy of mine came over when I was in the middle of a game PlaneWhoring. He made some offbeat comment about how invulnerable planes were. In reponse I proceeded to shut him up by shooting down the enemy pilots, which would take about 10 seconds from engaging them to shooting them down. I could hear a bit of a muffled laughter as he just realized first hand what fodder planes are to an experienced dogfighter. Not to mention once a pilot is shot down they'll extremely vulnerable as all planes are during take off. This can be seen perfectly demonstrated in the video I released as I keep the planes grounded for pretty much the entire game.

Finally, I can only wonder why this is such a hot topic, because in my experience efficient pilots are very rare. In about 200 hours logged I've only seen a very small handful of airplane pilots that do well. For every pilot I see at the top of the scoreboard, I typically see 20 helicopter pilots or 20 dedicated tank drivers to match. I don't play Karkand, Sharqi or Mashtuur, on my pilot profile, but from the time I have spent on these maps on my infantry profile it's even more slanted as the tanks/helicopters annihilate people will little opposition.

But sure, in the hands of someone as experienced and skilled as I am, and with the right circumstances an airplane can be scarey, I won't deny that, but then again that same thing can be said for any of the powerful vehicles in this game.

I just want the ability to jam your ground targeting radar, and packup/move AA sites.

Everything else can stay as is

[The_Misfit]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

Our clans' best pilot once boasted, "If it wasn't for mid-air collisions, I would never be shot down."

I'm no aviator, but I have logged some time in the Essex or Stinger/IGLA, in fact enough to know that the percentages of rounds fired vs. friendlies hit, vs. misses, vs. actual kills is WAY off.

As a helo pilot (60+ hrs), I also know that while the AA stinks vs. jets, its VERY effective vs. helos. Flying the attack chopper on maps like Daging Oilfields or Dragon Valley is going to make me tone deaf :) And heck, you don't hear about jets being taken down by Vodniks, but try working a flag in a cobra while a gunner in a vodnik nearby tears you apart.

As mentioned before, the missles need to lock better. Even after the patch I've gotten plenty of "team vehicle damage" firing stingers. A reduction in a jets armor would help too -- most air to air fights are quickly decided, so it'd really only effect ground to air combat. If too many improvements are done to the AA I'd also suggest beefing up the attack choppers armor a bit, nothing drastic, but so that 2 stingers wouldn't destory it.

[Wilkystyle]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

To be honest, I really don't mind anything about the game as it is.. But since it was a thread for suggestions on improving the missle tracking, i figured i'd throw some ideas out.

And for the record.. Anyone who claims they "can't be shot down" is nothing more than cocky. Anyone can be shot down. Period.

[vbl]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

Our clans' best pilot once boasted, "If it wasn't for mid-air collisions, I would never be shot down."

I'm no aviator, but I have logged some time in the Essex or Stinger/IGLA, in fact enough to know that the percentages of rounds fired vs. friendlies hit, vs. misses, vs. actual kills is WAY off.

As a helo pilot (60+ hrs), I also know that while the AA stinks vs. jets, its VERY effective vs. helos. Flying the attack chopper on maps like Daging Oilfields or Dragon Valley is going to make me tone deaf :) And heck, you don't hear about jets being taken down by Vodniks, but try working a flag in a cobra while a gunner in a vodnik nearby tears you apart.

As mentioned before, the missles need to lock better. Even after the patch I've gotten plenty of "team vehicle damage" firing stingers. A reduction in a jets armor would help too -- most air to air fights are quickly decided, so it'd really only effect ground to air combat. If too many improvements are done to the AA I'd also suggest beefing up the attack choppers armor a bit, nothing drastic, but so that 2 stingers wouldn't destory it.

Helicopters aren't so much at risk from the AA sites as from the jeep-mounted .50 cal guns and the infantry AT rockets.

[unlimitedmp]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

AA is funny.

I was in a BH on mastuur and the pilot was circling the mec main base. The AA on their hill flag kept trying to shoot us down but all we had to do was move in a slow circle and the missiles kept missing.

The missiles also went thru the helo (not the compartment but the solid part).

I was on the Essex gun and I look away for a sec, a j-10 destroys it in 2 secs w/the nose gun. Another time, I had clear visual on the jet but it was too far to lock on. I say: if you can see it, you should be able to lock on.

[redrider]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

Its easy to tell who is a pilot in this thread. The pilots say AA is fine. The people who never or rarely fly say change the AA. That really is no suprise is it. Most people think Any change would help....Red

[BRUTALITEEEEEEEEE]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

Its easy to tell who is a pilot in this thread. The pilots say AA is fine. The people who never or rarely fly say change the AA. That really is no suprise is it. Most people think Any change would help....Red

:laugh: good point.....playing Wake as a foot soilder is like watching the air show only........with bombs and you die







ALOT!!!!

[WarGimp]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

since it was a thread for suggestions on improving the missle tracking, i figured i'd throw some ideas out.

WACK WACK WACK!!

klog hbb fcd mjkj <--- That's me litterally banging my head against the keyboard (BTW, my roommate walked in just as I was apllying my forehead to my keys... not kidding)

Does anyone read more of a thread than it's title?
Even the title was miss-read in this case!
I'ts not A thread for sugestionS it's s thread about A suggestion!

How hard is this to get a handle on?

STOP!

Before I write anything else, I want to attempt to lay down some ground rules regarding the intent of this post. I want this to be a good hard look at how the issues with aircraft can be resolved without adding or seriously impacting any features. That means NO Stinger kit (new feature, not gonna happen) and NO comments about just removing bombs from fighters (impacts intended game play).

What I want to see is some good logic and grown up attitudes. I don't want so see "Plane whores suck" or pointless slams on EA/Dice. If you can present a logical argument or point out a flaw in the following suggestion, please by all means do so. DO NOT make alternate suggestions unless you have previously made a good logical argument as to why this suggestion is not optimal.

If you AGREE with the content of the post, show your support by saying so and keeping it "live". I would also encourage you to post links and pointers to it in other forums and/or e-mail Dice suggesting that they look at it (POLITELY!). The idea is to get a workable fix in place by pushing for a real and good solution.

Mods, if you can help out with this, it would be much appreciated!

Is this really too much to ask?