Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

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  • WarGimp

    #1

    Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

    STOP!

    Before I write anything else, I want to attempt to lay down some ground rules regarding the intent of this post. I want this to be a good hard look at how the issues with aircraft can be resolved without adding or seriously impacting any features. That means NO Stinger kit (new feature, not gonna happen) and NO comments about just removing bombs from fighters (impacts intended game play).

    What I want to see is some good logic and grown up attitudes. I don't want so see "Plane whores suck" or pointless slams on EA/Dice. If you can present a logical argument or point out a flaw in the following suggestion, please by all means do so. DO NOT make alternate suggestions unless you have previously made a good logical argument as to why this suggestion is not optimal.

    If you AGREE with the content of the post, show your support by saying so and keeping it "live". I would also encourage you to post links and pointers to it in other forums and/or e-mail Dice suggesting that they look at it (POLITELY!). The idea is to get a workable fix in place by pushing for a real and good solution.

    Mods, if you can help out with this, it would be much appreciated!

    I should also mention that this solution has been stated before by myself and others. I feel that we need to consolidate on it.

    On to the meat of the matter:

    Before proposing any kind of solution, you had first better take a good look at the problem.
    The current issue is that the intended "rock, paper, scissors" formula is broken. There is no Rock to oppose the plane Scissors.
    Why is this true?
    The answer is very simple. The AA missile code isn't up to the needed task. We know this to be true, but do we know why it's not up to it? Let's examine that for a moment.

    There are two main problems with the AA missile code as it stands. The primary is lock issues.

    Missiles tend to break lock and chase friendly aircraft more often than is reasonable. This is likely caused by some variables that should be fairly easy to tweek. HOWEVER, it's also complicated by the inclusion of helicopters. If AA missiles are too accurate, choppers will become useless. That would be a bad thing.

    The second issue is pass-through. It's common to see missiles pass cleanly through their target without detonating. This is likely a lag issue. Since we're dealing with 2 object that are moving at high speed, it is very easy for the program to miss detecting a missile impact.

    SO, that's the issue in a nutshell.
    On to the proposed solution (about friggen time, eh?).

    - Improve the lock code. Missiles should not stray nearly as often and should never chase a friendly aircraft unless the lock has already been broken. In that case, the missile should have every chance to lose lock that it does when chasing an enemy. Instances of AA FF need to be reduced dramaticly.

    Why this is good: Fairly obvious. If you can't hit your target, it's very hard to kill your target! The only problem is, as mentioned, that if AA missile were made too accurate, helicopters would become sitting ducks. Hopefully, the following points will help alleviate that issue.

    - AA missiles should use a proximity fuse. They should detonate when they are a fixed distance from the target. I'm thinking about 20 feet. Probably less. The warhead should have a splash damage radius slightly larger than it's detonation distance and damage should be fairly even across it, but ramped down steeply at the edge. Actual base damage should remain the same. If they impact on something with no lock, it should not be very damaging.

    Why this is good: A proximity fuse would give the missile multiple chances to realize that it needs to detonate. If it misses a check, it will still be in detonation range for the next check. Instead of flying through the target and continuing on it's way, will blow just a little later than it should have. With the blast radius involved, it will still cause suitable damage. Here's the really fun part... since the missiles are more likely to detect their detonation range correctly when locked on a chopper, they should blow early and actually cause less damage! This works as an offset to the fact that they are now much more accurate and save use from a flood of ticked off chopper pilots.

    - Air Plane Armor needs to be reduced. I'm thinking that a reduction of about a third is appropriate, but the exact amount would have to be experimented with.

    Why this is good: AA's should make pilots sweat! Since it's likely that missiles will be doing less damage overall, the planes need to be made more vulnerable. Also, since those missile hits are now going to be variable in damage (splash falloff) it would be very cool to see a close missile hit knocking a plane down to almost nothing. This works hand in hand with the chopper issue as noted above. We don't want to ramp missile damage up, because those chopper pilots are going to be getting slammed. Note: if required, the cannons on aircraft might need to have their damage slightly reduced. This should be alright since already we are seeing ridiculous cannon runs blowing away tanks and the like. It's something that would have to be carefully player with to make it "right".

    And that's it!
    With these suggestions in place, planes should now be more vulnerable to AA fire and yet we've managed to avoid overspill that would cause helicopters to become useless.

    I hope I have stated my/our case well and offer this up to whoever might be able to do something with it.
  • DickY

    #2
    Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

    Would the proximity fuse not result in more teamkills, due to the fact most attack choppers are duelling in close combat, for example?

    Ok, you could say, well don't fire AA when attack choppers are at each others throat :)

    Comment

    • bisley

      #3
      Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

      Originally posted by DickY
      Would the proximity fuse not result in more teamkills, due to the fact most attack choppers are duelling in close combat, for example?

      Ok, you could say, well don't fire AA when attack choppers are at each others throat :)
      Choppers could have more missile counter measures , chaff and faster reload of flares.

      Comment

      • Jesse

        #4
        Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

        I personally don't see the lock code being fixed without either making missiles that behave as they do now (like rolling a die to see if you keep your lock) or having missiles that are absolutely unshakeable without the use of flares. It would make it a lot simpler to remove the tracking on the missiles all together both coding wise and as far as taxing on the server to calculate all of the tracking. The proximity detonation coupled with a straight-fire missile would both add some skill to the firing of the missiles, not have a huge impact on the way the game is played (except for flying things would be more easily shot down by those who knew how to operate the AA) and the missiles wouldn't be TK magnets unless the person firing them is an idiot (excluding the rare accident).

        As an alternative, you could make the missiles lock indefinately, and increase the amount of flares, and make the planes have to reload on flares as well. Run outta flares, run outta luck.

        Comment

        • PsychoSnowMan

          #5
          I don't think that the game does a series of 'checks' to make sure sure the missle is inside of it's detonation area. It probably just looks like that to you because of the lag between the server and you, if you've played BF42 then you probably know what I'm talking about as it was alot more prevalent on the refractor2 engine. It would be interesting to download Battlefield Recorder footage and check to see if the server saw the missle and the plane in the same places as you did.
          Secondly I think a better solution would be to upgrade the maneuverability and tracking abilities of the AA missles. They could tone down the damage to heli's if they were worried about them being taken out too easily. Helicopters don't have much to worry about anyways though, those things are flare factories. :P
          [edit]In response to Jesse, I don't think straight firing missles are the way to go. DC has those in the form of manpad stingers and SA-7 Grails. They're effective and deadly in the hands of a good user but for your average newbie they can be somewhat difficult to use. Especially when you're trying to hit a target flying at an odd angle to yourself.[/edit]

          Comment

          • vbl

            #6
            Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

            Gimpy -

            As usual, we tend to approach matters from different directions, though in this case, our ideas are complementary.

            Your fixes for AA missiles are good, but they're incomplete in addressing the dominance of jets. Better AA missiles only help if ground troops have a chance to fire them.

            The larger issues in my mind are that most AA emplacements are static, and the jet's ground radar reveals all. To the former point, jet pilots can easily memorize AA locations and make regular passes (see the Planewhore video?) on them, spraying the area with cannon fire long before the stingers can even establish lock-on. If all else fails and the jet balks on the attack run, flares can muck up the lock long enough for the pilot to withdraw and attack from a different direction. Better missiles aren't much use if you can't get a clean shot, or get waxed before you're even in the AA.

            The other issue, ground radar, means that the pilots are given quite a bit of warning about ground troops' location, whereas ground troops have only their ears and their field of vision (and maybe a friendly spot, but who knows). This gives jets quite a bit of initiative and makes shooting jets down with stingers, regardless of how great they are, a very difficult proposition.

            I know you are skeptical of the specific implementations I suggested, but I'll repaste them anyway. Consider the spirit of the suggestion more than the details, if the latter bothers you.

            Ultimately I believe that we can help balance the battle against aircraft, but also provide richer tactical gameplay and additional opportunities for teamwork with a few relatively simple additions.

            ---------------------

            Having given a little more thought to this, I have a few ideas that I'd like to hear some comments on. The goals here are to increase the winning chances of ground troops vs. enemy jets, but also increase the reliance that jet pilots have on friendly ground forces.

            1) On maps with jets, add at least one more mobile AA vehicle for each side. It doesn't have to be the full tracked unit, but a smaller vehicle (like a Humvee) with AA capabilities would be stellar.

            2) Allow mobile AA vehicles to jam the radar on enemy jets. This could be nullifying the radar's ability to highlight ground and air targets, but it could also cause false positives. Jet pilots would need help from ground units to take out these mobile radar jammers.

            3) Create a piece of AA equipment that can be packed up and carried by a soldier, thus allowing infantry to create moveable versions of the IGLA and stinger sites (like an AA "mortar"). This would prevent jet pilots from being able to easily patrol the same, static locations for AA threats. Handheld stingers would achieve a similar goal, but (if DC taught us anything) that can also get well out of hand - and we don't want to make piloting totally impossible.

            4) There has to be a large reduction in the probability that an AA rocket will hit friendly aircraft. This is non-negotiable.

            Comment

            • WarGimp

              #7
              Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

              Originally posted by DickY
              Would the proximity fuse not result in more teamkills, due to the fact most attack choppers are duelling in close combat, for example?

              Ok, you could say, well don't fire AA when attack choppers are at each others throat :)
              Hehe, I'm not talking about a massive blast radius! :p
              I'm thinking maybe 20 feet. Prolly less.
              Yeah, at that range you shouldn't be shooting into the fray.
              Thanks for pointing that out tho. I should have made a rough comment on the blast radius in the initial post.

              Originally posted by bisley
              Choppers could have more missile counter measures , chaff and faster reload of flares.
              I don't think they would be required. If this suggesting was implemented, most of the time you'd be taking slightly less damage from AA fire. Granted, you'd likely be hit more often, but the survivability of choppers is a little on the high side now anyway.
              Originally posted by PsychoSnowMan
              I don't think that the game does a series of 'checks' to make sure sure the missle is inside of it's detonation area. It probably just looks like that to you because of the lag between the server and you, if you've played BF42 then you probably know what I'm talking about as it was alot more prevalent on the refractor2 engine. It would be interesting to download Battlefield Recorder footage and check to see if the server saw the missle and the plane in the same places as you did.
              No, I don't think the missiles do checks as it is right now either. I suspect that's the issue. The missles are just projectials with a guided property. They get the same colishion detect as other projectials in the game. However, from my observations of the engine, missing colishions is something that happens very frequantly. With bullets it's not a big deal because there tend to be a lot of them. If one colishion isn't detected, the next will. With missiles, it only gets one chance to get it right.

              Interesting comment on the checking BR footage. That's part of what got me to post this. I noticed that AA missiles tend to zig-zag through their flight during playback, but in game it's rounded off. This suggests to me that I'm on the money with my speculations. To the server, the missiles path is only tracked as a series of points. I suspect that colishion is calculated off the line between those points. It doesn't take much lag to toss that off.

              I don't know the engine intimently enough to know for sure... but we're all workin with what we go, eh?
              Secondly I think a better solution would be to upgrade the maneuverability and tracking abilities of the AA missles. They could tone down the damage to heli's if they were worried about them being taken out too easily. Helicopters don't have much to worry about anyways though, those things are flare factories. :P
              Again, I'm not sure about some of the inner workings of the engine, but it seems to me that this is the "fix" they tried to implement last time. I think they are butting up against a limitation when it comes to missile tracking. It may be a little on the resource intensive side to increase the resolution of the tracking.

              As for the impact on helicopters, I suspect it might be a little heavier than you imagine. I spend quite a bit of time sweating over my next flare drop as is. When someone on the ground desides to psyc out a chopper, they can be very effective even with the broken AA tracking.
              [edit]In response to Jesse, I don't think straight firing missles are the way to go. DC has those in the form of manpad stingers and SA-7 Grails. They're effective and deadly in the hands of a good user but for your average newbie they can be somewhat difficult to use. Especially when you're trying to hit a target flying at an odd angle to yourself.[/edit]
              This is about the same responce I would have given. No, I don't think dumbfire missiles are an acceptable solution. We're trying to make it easier to nail planes, not harder.

              To forstall any "skilless" comments about using seeking weapons, the skill comes in the timing and use. Even now you will be much more sucsessful if you play some headgames with your target.
              Originally posted by ||ass||variable
              Gimpy -

              As usual, we tend to approach matters from different directions, though in this case, our ideas are complementary.
              The number of times I've heard comments to this effect is quite astonishing.
              :p
              Your fixes for AA missiles are good, but they're incomplete in addressing the dominance of jets. Better AA missiles only help if ground troops have a chance to fire them.

              The larger issues in my mind are that most AA emplacements are static, and the jet's ground radar reveals all. To the former point, jet pilots can easily memorize AA locations and make regular passes (see the Planewhore video?) on them, spraying the area with cannon fire long before the stingers can even establish lock-on. If all else fails and the jet balks on the attack run, flares can muck up the lock long enough for the pilot to withdraw and attack from a different direction. Better missiles aren't much use if you can't get a clean shot, or get waxed before you're even in the AA.
              You are forgeting about the AA vehicles. With improved AA missiles and players who use Linebacks to shot air targets instead of just infantry, I think you'd see this issue resolved quite nicely. In fact, I suspect you'd see many pilots complaining about overpowered AA when people got used to using them correctly.
              The other issue, ground radar, means that the pilots are given quite a bit of warning about ground troops' location, whereas ground troops have only their ears and their field of vision (and maybe a friendly spot, but who knows). This gives jets quite a bit of initiative and makes shooting jets down with stingers, regardless of how great they are, a very difficult proposition.
              This is a valid point. Maybe the radar on the stingers needs to be extended as well. More warning for the stinger opperator.
              Actually... even better would be to extend the range of the tracking without extending the range of locks. This would alow a stinger gunner to see ID hostial planes without giving them lock tone warnings at longer range.
              I know you are skeptical of the specific implementations I suggested, but I'll repaste them anyway. Consider the spirit of the suggestion more than the details, if the latter bothers you.
              Nothing of the sort. I like the fact that we're getting some good ideas going here. I'm not afraid of a little challange... even to my concepts.

              Ultimately I believe that we can help balance the battle against aircraft, but also provide richer tactical gameplay and additional opportunities for teamwork with a few relatively simple additions.
              As I noted, I believe there's another level of tactical play just waiting for missiles to work. Placement and use of mobile AA is a big deal on the modern battlefield and it would be great to see that aspect fully apresiated in-game.
              Having given a little more thought to this, I have a few ideas that I'd like to hear some comments on. The goals here are to increase the winning chances of ground troops vs. enemy jets, but also increase the reliance that jet pilots have on friendly ground forces.
              Bingo! It's a cool aspect to have functional. Before I realized that AA was so broken, I spent a lot of time in tank taking out AA sites. :p
              1) On maps with jets, add at least one more mobile AA vehicle for each side. It doesn't have to be the full tracked unit, but a smaller vehicle (like a Humvee) with AA capabilities would be stellar.

              2) Allow mobile AA vehicles to jam the radar on enemy jets. This could be nullifying the radar's ability to highlight ground and air targets, but it could also cause false positives. Jet pilots would need help from ground units to take out these mobile radar jammers.

              3) Create a piece of AA equipment that can be packed up and carried by a soldier, thus allowing infantry to create moveable versions of the IGLA and stinger sites (like an AA "mortar"). This would prevent jet pilots from being able to easily patrol the same, static locations for AA threats. Handheld stingers would achieve a similar goal, but (if DC taught us anything) that can also get well out of hand - and we don't want to make piloting totally impossible.
              Unfortunatly, all these ideas require new content. I'm not being obstanant, but we have to reject them out of hand. We just aren't going to get any additional content. I know, it sucks, but that's biz fer ya.
              Defiantly good ideas for Modders if they are paying attention.
              4) There has to be a large reduction in the probability that an AA rocket will hit friendly aircraft. This is non-negotiable.
              Without a doubt... and mentioned in the original post.

              Wheew! That was a lot of responding.
              Glad to see you folks are into this.

              Comment

              • vbl

                #8
                Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

                If your banking on mobile AA to be the final piece of your solution, you'd better add "place more mobile AA on maps, especially Wake Island" to your list.

                Comment

                • WarGimp

                  #9
                  Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

                  Argueably, yeah.
                  However, there is one more piece of the puzzel that hasn't been touched on yet... "AA missiles" include air to air. Presumably, the Air to air missiles are the same as the surface to air ones (in game, I know there's a big differance in RL).

                  As a result, Fighters would become much better at taking each other apart as well. Sissors vs sissors type situation. Stale mate. The ground emplacements and AA vehicles would provide the rock to bust it.

                  Wake, in theory, would become very much a dogfighter's map. I'm sure there's more than a few pilots that would grin over the idea of hunting them bombers. Hmmm... sky meat!

                  If I were working at Dice, my first move would be to implement the above changes, then hand it off to some GOOD QAers. See how things pan out. If required, more AA vehicles could be added (as well as tweeking various other things like plane armor and cannon damage).

                  Comment

                  • WarGimp

                    #10
                    Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

                    Hmm... I thought this would be a hot topic amongst you folks.

                    Maybe it's a little too "wordy"?

                    Comment

                    • jamie321

                      #11
                      Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

                      Originally posted by Wargimp
                      Interesting comment on the checking BR footage. That's part of what got me to post this. I noticed that AA missiles tend to zig-zag through their flight during playback, but in game it's rounded off. This suggests to me that I'm on the money with my speculations. To the server, the missiles path is only tracked as a series of points. I suspect that colishion is calculated off the line between those points. It doesn't take much lag to toss that off.

                      .
                      those zig zags that you noticed are due to the low quality of the battle recorder, depending on the quality of the server ,the quality of battlerecorder ranges from 1 to 10 (you can set it when making a dedicated server yourself) most servers use a fairly low quality setting due to the huge amount of space the higest quality setting takes up. Also the battlerecorder is not an exact replica of the battle , it uses a series of vectors for each unit (this is the zig zags you noticed in the missiles, this occurs in tanks , choppers , people if you look close enough) with the higher quality battlerecorders there are more vectors for each unit making it more similar to the original battle ,but battlerecorder is not a good way of testing differences between the client and server , the best thing would be to use something like fraps on both client and server to see if there is a difference.
                      I think you are right in that there might be an issue with the server detecting a hit due to the lag from clients. I ran a similar test on CSS over a Lan game once and we noticed that some objects were in different places and the bullet holes were not in the same location for both client and server.

                      Comment

                      • IVfluids

                        #12
                        Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

                        Originally posted by Wargimp
                        Hmm... I thought this would be a hot topic amongst you folks.

                        Maybe it's a little too "wordy"?
                        I could have sworn I posted on this yesterday? hmmm... ah well..

                        Comment

                        • zymyo

                          #13
                          Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

                          If anyone has ever played Lock On modern air combat, you probably found out already that it only takes one missile to cripple the airplane for no longer use, but gives plenty of time to let pilot eject before they take a slope down and crash in seconds, and if the attacker wants to kill that pilot before he gets a chance to eject, he would have to shoot 2 AAs.

                          Now in this description of jets to be more affected by damage, they could have the avility to dodge the missile if not flying in a straight path.

                          Oh and one last comment, the Chinese jet is a piece of crap, horribly programmed.

                          Comment

                          • KHAN

                            #14
                            Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

                            All good as long as they make it so that the AA guns have to be repaired back into existance or at least a couple of minutes wait before they respawn. Would make it good to HAVE to take them out, and the other team to have to work to shoot you down.

                            AA guns are too easy to shoot with machine guns, i can get them everytime. I dont worry in the slightest when I hear that alarm.

                            Comment

                            • ToneDog

                              #15
                              Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

                              personally i wish there are more planes and some are loaded with only air to air weapons
                              that way jets will be more occupied with other jets and there wouldn't be so much teamkilling for planes

                              Comment

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