Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

[imported_Psycho]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

1. and 3. won't work.

!. won't work because then every missile fired will hit a chopper and kill it making them completly pointless to use.

3. Won't work as it only takes 2 missiles to kill a plane with full armour anyway.

2. is a good idea but i believe if the missile doesn't hit but blows up close to the target it should do less damamge then one that hits, otherwise there is no advantage to actually aimming the missiles, you might as well just fire all 6 missles from the plane and watch them all do 50% damage.

[WarGimp]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

Psycho, go back and read the original post again.
I adressed those issues.

[HyperBlade]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

The solution is simple.

1: AA missles should never go after friendlys, this means people will be more willing to actually use them and fire them off. I know im worried when i fire them off that they will go after teammates, so i use them only as a last resort.

2: make the fixed AA sites not show up on the bombing radar. Good pilots will still know where they are but not which ones are targeting them.

These are simple fixes, easily doable, and will change the dynamics just enough to balance it back up again.

[WarGimp]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

STOP!

Before I write anything else, I want to attempt to lay down some ground rules regarding the intent of this post. I want this to be a good hard look at how the issues with aircraft can be resolved without adding or seriously impacting any features. That means NO Stinger kit (new feature, not gonna happen) and NO comments about just removing bombs from fighters (impacts intended game play).

What I want to see is some good logic and grown up attitudes. I don't want so see "Plane whores suck" or pointless slams on EA/Dice. If you can present a logical argument or point out a flaw in the following suggestion, please by all means do so. DO NOT make alternate suggestions unless you have previously made a good logical argument as to why this suggestion is not optimal.

If you AGREE with the content of the post, show your support by saying so and keeping it "live". I would also encourage you to post links and pointers to it in other forums and/or e-mail Dice suggesting that they look at it (POLITELY!). The idea is to get a workable fix in place by pushing for a real and good solution.

Mods, if you can help out with this, it would be much appreciated!

I hate it when people don't bother to take the time to read a thread before mashing on their Submit Reply button.

[HyperBlade]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

I hate it when people don't bother to take the time to read a thread before mashing on their Submit Reply button.

Your fixes are not simple and would require a change in the balance of the AA missles to planes, for the worse. The problem is not large, players are afriad to use the aa missles for fear of hitting teammates, and the fact they show up to everyplane in a nice box making them mince meat.

My suggestions are simple, would work, and would not ruin the balance.

Better explained for you?

[imported_The 13th Raptor]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

- Improve the lock code. Missiles should not stray nearly as often and should never chase a friendly aircraft unless the lock has already been broken. In that case, the missile should have every chance to lose lock that it does when chasing an enemy.

Missles should never track friendly aircraft, simply because teamkilling while you had no intention to, simply sucks.. I dont see a need for teamdamage/teamkilling now do you?

AA missiles should use a proximity fuse. They should detonate when they are a fixed distance from the target. I'm thinking about 20 feet. Probably less. The warhead should have a splash damage radius slightly larger than it's detonation distance and damage should be fairly even across it, but ramped down steeply at the edge. Actual base damage should remain the same. If they impact on something with no lock, it should not be very damaging.

Why this is good: A proximity fuse would give the missile multiple chances to realize that it needs to detonate. If it misses a check, it will still be in detonation range for the next check. Instead of flying through the target and continuing on it's way, will blow just a little later than it should have. With the blast radius involved, it will still cause suitable damage. Here's the really fun part... since the missiles are more likely to detect their detonation range correctly when locked on a chopper, they should blow early and actually cause less damage! This works as an offset to the fact that they are now much more accurate and save use from a flood of ticked off chopper pilots.

I dont think you, or me understand the game engine well enough but..

If it does work like you asume, then yes, a prox fuse would be great. BUT, the damage should be even all around. Helicopters have advantages over planes, their survivability is much higher. They can use the terrain to mask themselves, have a quicker flare reload, and have loads more HP. A helicopter lingering around an area while there is a missle lock on him should prepare to pay the price. They should dump their flares and haul ass, simple as that.

[« R²» HKS]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

I agree that a lot of these proposed fixes would be a good idea, however as far as I can tell being a slf confessed attack heli whore, If you make the AA anymore effective it will render the heli's useless not a good thing because they are already effective against heli's. The trick is to make them more effective against jets whilst keep the current effect they have on heli's.

I don't fly a plane, don't see it as a challenge really but from time to time when there are no vehicles and I'm stuck on a carrier I'll take a plane up. I don't even use the flares in a plane its not even necessary. A sharp turn is all thats needed when you get a lock on and nothing will ever hit you. So even if you took flares away from planes it still won't fix it.

Something I would like to see implemented is a feature that DC had which you could turn on server side. That being a spawn shield. Oh how that would make my job as an admin so much easier if I could set a spawn shield around an uncappable main so planes couldn't enter the air space without blowing up. However this would be tricky to implement in BF2 because you would need to allow access to the commanders assets to destroy them. I think if planes couldn't blatantly bomb say the carrier over and over again, it would make a lot of people happy hence thats why we implemented the no attacking/camping/raping uncaps until last flag, however this takes an immense amount of admining and guess who the main offenders are in breaking this rule, plane whores!

I agree that the rock/paper/scissors is broken when applied to jets. Unless there is another good pilot to take out another pilot then its useless. I would like to see the ability of attack heli's to be able to combat jets. This may even the playing field if heli's had AA's as well. I mean in BFV a heli could also attack a jet not so in BF2. Although sometimes you can kill them if you are lucky with the tv guideds and I have before taken out a jet flying at 2mph in the MEC heli with the cannons.

Another thing I think needs changing is the ability of jets to fly @ 2mph without falling our of the sky. I think this is one of the 1st things they need to change.

[imported_The 13th Raptor]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

I agree that a lot of these proposed fixes would be a good idea, however as far as I can tell being a slf confessed attack heli whore, If you make the AA anymore effective it will render the heli's useless not a good thing because they are already effective against heli's. The trick is to make them more effective against jets whilst keep the current effect they have on heli's.

No, it will not make helicopters useless, it will make heli pilots change tactics. About 1 out of 5 AA missles fired from the stinger sites seem to strike helicopters. Unless you are the type of pilot that hangs above a flag and lets the co pilot wreak havoc, then you should have nothing to worry about. You can simply avoid locks by flying low,and behind buildings, hovering around a hot zone should be dangerous to you.. alot more then it is now.

[WarGimp]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

Yup... improving AA's ability to take out planes while not totally sodomizing helicopters is part of the goal here.

I agree with Rapt's comments partly. Flying low and avoiding AA is part of what choppers are good for. It's also good to note that with the proposed blast radius, choppers are likely to take less damage per hit than they do now. They are going to get hit more if they aren't careful, but they'd be hurt less. This seems like a good balance ta me.

[« R²» HKS]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

Look I can avoid AA just fine in a heli, I agree with your suggestions on how to do so, use some of the principles myself along with some other techniques. I just want to make sure by making AA more effective against planes, it "may" mean it would also make it more effective against heli's because I can't see how it won't. As long as it doesn't render heli's being useless and it actually works on planes I'm all for it. I just don't have any faith in this being the case.

[WarGimp]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

Nor do I.
That's why I've been aprouching the issue carefully and putting a lot of thought into it.

The most obvious answer to the AA issue is to "just make 'em tack better", but this would definatly futz up the choppers.

However, it's my feeling that if plane armour was reduced and the over all damage potential of AA missiles is reduced (via blast radius fall off), it seems like the best bet to me.

I can't think of a better way to handle it.

[Jesse]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

[edit]In response to Jesse, I don't think straight firing missles are the way to go. DC has those in the form of manpad stingers and SA-7 Grails. They're effective and deadly in the hands of a good user but for your average newbie they can be somewhat difficult to use. Especially when you're trying to hit a target flying at an odd angle to yourself.[/edit]

...and...

This is about the same responce I would have given. No, I don't think dumbfire missiles are an acceptable solution. We're trying to make it easier to nail planes, not harder.

To forstall any "skilless" comments about using seeking weapons, the skill comes in the timing and use. Even now you will be much more sucsessful if you play some headgames with your target.

In the current state, dumbfire missiles would be much easier to nail planes. Fly a plane at me in DC and give me the dumbfire SA-3 rocket, and they won't be there before they get to me. It's NOT hard to use, but the way the tracking systems work in general is why I think dumbfire would be more effective (both in being able to hit something, and not having TK's). They simply track the nearest target object within a certain range and angle, whichever is closer, it tracks. Friendly or not. If they remove the tracking of friendly aircraft, I'll be more in support of the tracking systems. I don't think it would be that difficult to make it not track friendlies, but given the track record of BF2 and it's patches, I'm not going to bank on it. :p

I agree with Variable on the mobile AA, definately should add some more of those. And the radar jamming ability sounds fun too, perhaps make it's box VERY similar to the original, so at first glance it's going to look like a target, but once you get closer, it becomes apparent your radar was fooled. Although, I do see the chance for TK'ing there as well, but with thoughtful implementation I don't think it would be a problem.

[WarGimp]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

Jesse man, give up on the dumbfire AA rocket thing. It's not gonna happen for a few reasons.
A) there will be no extra features implemented. No shoulder launched AA missiles, dumbfire or not.
B) it doesn't solve the problems in any elegant way. Dumb firing missiles will make it harder for people to shoot down aircraft. Period. Maybe you've got some l33t skills, but we're talking about imporving the game for everyone.
C) It doesn't adress issues with making the AA more effective vs planes without making things too rough for choppers.
D) it doesn't adress lag induced hit detect failures (in fact it would make things worse because dumbfire missiles would have to be FAST).
E) you haven't pointed out any reasonable flaws with the original suggestion and I pointedly asked people NOT to post alternate suggestions without first providing a logical problem with the basic concept of the one on the table.
Edit: Ea) Missiles over enthusiasticly locking onto friendlies is an issue that was covered in the original suggestion. Yes, it needs to be fixed, but that's been stated.

I don't wanna hear anything more about this in this thread. You are free to start another thread to support your argument, but that isn't the intent of this thread.

K?

[GreenMonk108]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

In term of armor, I hope DICE would fix it in the order of light to heavy one:
1. jets (need to reduce armor)
2. transport helicopter
3. attack helo like AH-1, Z-10, etc...

[ToneDog]

Re: Serious Suggestion on how to Fix Plane Issues

whatever they do they should not reduce jet armor level. That will make it easier for the lives of the people on the ground, but it is not a fair deal when it takes the fun out of flying jets.

i still stick to my air to air jet method

Right now the most number of jets you can have on the biggest map possible is 2 on each team, often there are only one or two jets in the air. When nothing else other than AAs are shooting at those jets, evading missiles and "plane whoring" is relatively easy even for the beginners with a joystick in hand. The problem i find with Battlefield 2 is that there is not enough air to air actions. Every time i get myself up in the air, i end up wrapping up kills from shooting cobras, blackhawks and bombing tanks because there is just not enough enemy jet flying around for me to start a dog fight with. Even when a dog fight occurs it usually ends in a long struggle and the winner only receives 2 points for the kill.

If the air to air jets (loaded with air to air weapons and no ground radar to avoid these jets raping APCs, cars and infantry) are put in the game, lets say on the USMC side, 2 newly added F23 (who cares about vehical accuracy, the jet over power issue is annoying enough), and the original two F35 or one F18 and one F15 for certain maps, those so called L33t out there will be out numbered by countless noob pilots and more points will be scored through air to air combat. This will also make the action in the air more balanced between bombing and dogfighting. At the same time AAs won't be busy filling the sky with missiles because the air will be filled with planes on both sides, our old friendly fire bug (which we all know dice will be too lazy to fix or kept in on purpose) will show up and force people to adapt. Also, there wouldn't be an angry mob crying on the forum about air power over powering.

Problem solved