Good Commanders- Critical to winning the map

[Ind1go]

Re: Good Commanders- Critical to winning the map

I definately can tell 5 minutes into the map how the command role is going to be played out and if I can rely on constat UAV and Arty support during the game or not. If I see a commander up on the front lines I know it's going to be sparatic support if best.

If the commander is just concentrating on fighting or healing himself then yes, your support will probably be limited. But that's a bad commander, not a bad use of the tactics I am advocating.

One may point out that a commander being up on the front lines is helping out because he can "See" whats going on. Well he isn't much use to the team DEAD either.

Artillery takes the best part of 2 or 3 minutes to recharge. Scanning about 60 seconds, UAV about 90. Supplies about 2 mins. The respawn time is 15 seconds. This means that if a commander is sitting at the rear he will be frantically busy for 15 seconds then just sitting around for another 60 or so. A commander at the front can "command" for 15 seconds, then return to the fight. If he dies he has probably killed someone else too but even so HIS ASSETS STILL CAN'T BE USED ANYWAY BECAUSE THEY ARE RECHARGING. And if a commander is fighting in an armoured vehicle he can use his assets to get an advantage over the enemy as he already knows where they are before they know he is there, so chances are he will kill more than one person.

Yes, sitting in the rear means the commander is at a lower risk but he is effectively useless except in brief bursts. He is also susecptible to being killed by raiding Spec Ops which renders your "he is no use if he is dead" argument somewhat a moot point.

My style of play is sitting back outside a rear flag zone (Defending it) and playing with my command screen up 90% of the game. I have yet gotten knifed by the enemy (Been knifed by immature players on the same team though) because running a Sat Scan will ALWAYS show where the enemy is at.

It will, correct, but to avoid being killed you then need to leave the tac map and defend yourself. Therefore you are now on foot and like any other soldier - NOT COMMANDING DESPITE BEING IN THE REAR. If you use an APC or something, playing as a mobile reserve you can intercept those people capping rear flags but you do it from the safety of a vehicle, even if it's just a jeep. This isn't interrupting your play style - it IS your play style, using your better knowledge to do things your team can't while still helping them out.

"One sitting in an APC and switching locations constantly certainly won't be, nor can they be hit reliably by artillery " but leaves you more prone to Special Forces C4 attacks since your area of view is so limited. Yet you will argue that you can see them coming....well so can someone laying in a building or bunker yet have the 2 advantages - Not sitting in a High Profile vehicle, element of suprise.

OK so by being in a vehicle I am more prone to Spec Ops (and presumably Anti Tank). Sitting in a bunker I am prone to ANY class, not just ones with anti vehicle weaponry. You then admit that I can still see them coming but then seem to think that a commander in an APC who knows exactly where the spec ops player is must be at some sort of disadvantage. I fail to see that mate... Spec Ops only stand a chance if I don't know where they are, but you admit that I would know where they are....

Incidentally it dawned on me that no one had yet presented the argument that by using an APC or tank I was denying my team this firepower on the very front lines. It's a good argument, but on large maps there are usually plenty of spare vehicles and I tend to play as spec ops anyway. This then gives me the option of raiding their base in a buggy, blow up their assets, steal an APC then run away. Just one example of how a commander can better serve his team - since I can't be ambushed I can get into the bases undetected and do the dirty work before escaping.

Ind1go, your play style is more BF1942 lone wolf style then squad base. You even said so yourself farther back in this thread, just not those words.

Not sure what this means, or how I've admitted it. Don't get me wrong, I don't go zooming around the map just using scans to find people for me to kill, I focus first and foremost on my team. If I see something that I can do that my team are less suited to, I will do it knowing that even if I die I will be back in 15 seconds and that the team can still go that long without me. I don't lone wolf unless it's chasing someone going for a sneak cap; I'm normally right behind my team covering them. Given the situation where my squad needs a resupply or I could repair my APC the squad gets it every time - hey, I know where I have dropped crates in the past. I always use UAV for squads - I have scan.

There is no one way that is the right way to play commander.

I agree, but I think there is definitely a wrong way and that is sitting at the back waiting for assets to recharge!

Nice to have a discussion for a change rather than people constantly flaming each other.

[evilzucchini]

Re: Good Commanders- Critical to winning the map

Indigo,

I think we've got confused about my point here. I am trying to say that win/loss ratio IS important as it is hard to cheat the system. As proven, you can't simply dive in or out of servers to get wins.

I didn't confuse your point, you just missed mine. You made a point that if you randomly join a server you have a 50/50 chance of winning or losing. All of my points were to show why that, if you just randomly join a server, you are more likely to end up on the LOSING side. I generally play 64 man servers, I like the chaos, and when I join, 7 times out of 10 I end up on the team that is losing and my addition, even if I am near god-like status (which I assure you I am not), I am not going to make much of a difference.

So I am not arguing that you can cheat the system to your benefit (which you can), I am arguing that if you don't care about W/D and don't actively do something (like switch teams, I am not talking about playing hard. I always play to win) the 50/50 chance that you win or lose does not exist. The chances are more like 70/30 that you will lose which greatly decreases your K/D ratio.

That being said:

And that is why I think autobalance should be mandatory for all ranked servers. Seriously, unless people are WANTING to cheat why else would it be off? It ensures that teams are fair on numbers and 99% of the time there are lone wolfs that can be swapped over without disrupting squads. A small pause at the beginning of a match to allow people to change teams freely before autobalance kicks in would let people join teams with friends, or there could even be a randomiser on public servers that mixes the teams up for each new map - dunno.

I really like this idea.

On to the commander arguement:

Spotting/UAV
The sign of a truly awful commander is one who refuses to use the scan function and relies on the UAV. We can all probably agree on that. A good commander can either pre-empt a UAV request or rely on good squad leaders to request it when they need it.

What kind of commander doesn't use the SCAN feature? I agree with you, they would be truly awful. However, I almost exclusively preempt with the UAV as most sqauds only request UAV when they don't see anyone, which most of the time means noone is there. If they request and I see one guy there, I will spot and tell them that he is the only one.

Supply drops. . . The argument for being an engineer as commander is a good one but IMO is flawed. If spec ops are destroying your assets, when you are going to repair them you are essentially lining up for a spec ops vs engineer battle. Spec ops win every time. Better to be a more combat orientated class and protect your engineers while they repair before planting ambushes for the next wave of spec ops.

Couldn't disagree with you more on this point. When everything else is equal, kit vs kit, on an open field with both enemies starting at the same time, you are right, spec ops 100% of the time will win. However, knowledge that an enemy is there, where the enemy is and which way they are facing is FAR more valuable than any kit. I ONLY play as an engineer so I don't have to waste my supply drops on repairing my assests. As to when I spec ops comes into the base. . . if I see him, I can spot him for myself and I have such an upperhand. I win at probably a 75-80% rate as an engy vs spec ops. Knowledge is power.

Artillery
Dropping artillery on your own troops is not only annoying for them but counter-productive. If you kill 2 men from each side you've probably accomplished nothing. The trick is to scan > spot for friendlies near hidden enemies > artillery behind enemy lines. Let your troops capture CPs themselves - if they fail you can artillery then, before they try again. Though 1.03 has seen more unscrupulous commanders bombing their own people, I think the removal of TKs is a good thing overall.

I agree with your points here.

I disagree, CPs are captured faster with more people around. Likewise having more medics/support/engineers around mean your forces last longer and even the simple fact of having more guns shooting at the enemy in one location means you are making more of a difference. Think about it. A commander sitting in the carrier will spend most of his time waiting for things to recharge! A commander at the front can accomplish more and even if he dies his assets will still be recharging.

As I said above, knowledge is power. To be honest, when I am commander, I am almost never just waiting for my stuff to recharge. There are plenty of things to do: You can communicate with your squads. You can zoom in all the way in during battles and spot people and give your squads pointers. You can direct squads. You can repair assests. The most useless commander is a dead commander. That's at least 15 seconds of you doing nothing. The commander abilities are just too important to be left idle for even 30 seconds and there will be plenty of times when a commander on the front line will be distracted for way longer than that. . . and, if they get distracted that long and then die it is even more of a waste.

Think about it, the commander of the real army is not running around on the front lines of battle. They are sitting in a room as far away from the battle as possible so that they are protected and undistracted by a fear for their life. As a commander, I just don't have enough idle time to go to the front line, fight for a while, and then retreat to a safe position so that I can do all of my support tasks.

This point I just cannot agree with you on.

The battlefield changes too quickly for this ESPECIALLY in more populated servers. If a commander is roving around in an APC, pauses, scans and sees enemy close by he can probably engage and kill them before spotting for others etc.

Case in point right here. If you do a scan and leave the screen, the scan stops and you lose the info. And, if you see a guy right next to you, you aren't going to be paying that much attention to guys on other parts of the map, you are going to focus on that guy more than you would have elsewise.

Tactical surprise counts for a lot as whoever fires first usually wins.

I find it funny that you would make this point after saying that a spec ops is goign to own an engy commander every time. :)
But, if there is any friendly near that CP, you can direct them there and spot the guy constantly for them (well, not to the point of annoyance) and they will have that tactical advantage.

You make some decent points but I think I have found a great balance between fighting and commanding. I really don't want to sound like I'm bragging or anything but since I started a combined fighting/commanding way of playing I've played about 20 maps, won 13 gold/2 silver/1 bronze medals and won 18 out of 20 games. What I am trying to say is my system is working really well for me and my teams. I really can't see any reason to change the system as it's working! I just don't want too many people to copy "my style"

Seriously, thanks for the good debate. Best I have had on these boards. Better than the whining we hear most of the time. If it works for you, I say go for it, but I disagree that it is the best you can do. I DO believe you have a good point if you have no squads that listen to you. However, if you have squads that listen and respond, especially with VOIP, I think the sitting back becomes even more important.

[The_Misfit]

Re: Good Commanders- Critical to winning the map

whoa, didnt get into this thread early enough, but defending a commander tooling around in a vehicle is plain stupid.

In a 8v8 clan scrim/war, sure, we're had commanders that commanded "on the fly".

In a full 64 player map, we're talking about a 32v32 matchup. Do you really think that going 32v31 is going to swing it to the other side? You have so may things to do as commander, the idea of being busy for 15 seconds and then sitting for 2-3 mins is ridiculous.

Unfortunately, more and more commanders think its ok to drive around, and they think the only 4 buttons that work on the menu are "scan, uav, radar, and supplies".

If you're really going to command correctly, you hide, pull up the screen, and NEVER leave it. I've left that screen maybe 1-2 times, only to go fix my own assets since some punk on the other team was using my supply crates to re-C4 everything :) But seriously, scan, and then SPOT FFS!

While your spotting, start looking @ squads and figure out who you want to go where, and hand out their orders. Guys that decline I re-order until they accept, maybe they have a set idea of where they want to go. From your scan and the action on the map you should be able to pick a spot for UAV, followed by Arty at a spot, and then tell your squads that supplies are available. Repeat this as nessesary, use VoIP to talk them, etc...

I can't see how you would describe this process as "being busy for 15 seconds followed by 60+ seconds of waiting".

I love it when we're closing out the enemy and they have 1-2 guys left. Our commander is flying around, and as we're all to the point of SCREEMING at him to SPOT the enemy, he drops a random UAV on nothing.....

[Ind1go]

Re: Good Commanders- Critical to winning the map

I didn't confuse your point, you just missed mine. You made a point that if you randomly join a server you have a 50/50 chance of winning or losing. All of my points were to show why that, if you just randomly join a server, you are more likely to end up on the LOSING side. I generally play 64 man servers, I like the chaos, and when I join, 7 times out of 10 I end up on the team that is losing and my addition, even if I am near god-like status (which I assure you I am not), I am not going to make much of a difference.

It's a common perception for certain things that people suffer from "bad luck". Good luck rarely sticks in the mind but bad luck nearly always does, leading to the impression that you are unlucky. Everyone does it, even if you know you are doing it.

When joining a server you have three possibilities. Either you are on the winning team, they're drawing or they're losing. At the early stages of a game then it probably means little if you are winning or losing, the game has plenty of time to change. However, if we look at extremes and say you join a server with 30 seconds to go, and you can't change teams. Since you don't have much idea before you join as to which team is winning (at least not using the in game server browser - can you see scores using third party apps?) then it IS random as to whether your team will win or lose. For the vast majority of the million or so BF2 players they will join the winning team half the time and the losing team the other half.

An interesting argument against my own (that I've just realised) would be that someone on the losing team quits so when you join autobalance puts you on the losing team. In this case, yes, the odds of you joining the losing team are then not 50%. However, once more than one player quits the odds change as autobalance would then sort it out IN GAME so when you joined in that case it is random again.

I can see your point now. 50/50 is probably not 100% correct, but the statement "it all balances out in the end" is probably true.
If the statement "7 times out of 10 when you join a server you will join the losing side" is true then that means the players who play the most, therefore join the most servers, should by now have a significantly higher loss record. Since they don't I'm still convinced that wins & losses that are out of your control essentially even out over time.

What kind of commander doesn't use the SCAN feature? I agree with you, they would be truly awful.

It's the commanders who, at the end of a game when you have all CPs and there is only one enemy left, simply don't know that they can scan and find them effortlessly. You then spend 10 minutes playing chase the UAV until the last enemy makes a mistake. :)

Couldn't disagree with you more on this point. When everything else is equal, kit vs kit, on an open field with both enemies starting at the same time, you are right, spec ops 100% of the time will win. However, knowledge that an enemy is there, where the enemy is and which way they are facing is FAR more valuable than any kit. I ONLY play as an engineer so I don't have to waste my supply drops on repairing my assests. As to when I spec ops comes into the base. . . if I see him, I can spot him for myself and I have such an upperhand. I win at probably a 75-80% rate as an engy vs spec ops. Knowledge is power.

I never find that engineers can get close enough to the enemy to make their shotgun effective. Also, though you know where the enemy is using the scan it doesn't give you the direction they are facing - only the UAV does that. You can zoom all the way in but that takes time. Even if you spot for yourself, the information becomes out of date the moment they move so your advantage decreases every second. Essentially, for the engineer to be able to ambush a spec op they would need to be close to the assets, close enough so they are spotted before the spec ops makes his attack on them.

As I said above, knowledge is power. To be honest, when I am commander, I am almost never just waiting for my stuff to recharge. There are plenty of things to do: You can communicate with your squads. You can zoom in all the way in during battles and spot people and give your squads pointers. You can direct squads. You can repair assests. The most useless commander is a dead commander. That's at least 15 seconds of you doing nothing. The commander abilities are just too important to be left idle for even 30 seconds and there will be plenty of times when a commander on the front line will be distracted for way longer than that. . . and, if they get distracted that long and then die it is even more of a waste.

Squad communication - I'm assuming you mean "give them orders" rather than type messages to them ;o)
The biggest assumption here is that you will actually have squads to order! Assuming that you are incredibly lucky and you do, have squads to order around that will listen are even more rare! I find that once I give an order it takes a long time to be carried out so endless communication is counter productive. Far better to give them an objective like a cap or defend and see how it pans out than to constantly change their orders. Doing that will likely annoy the squad leader. That's not to say don't bother but in practice I just don't see many squads willing to do what you ask.

Zooming in and spotting is an interesting point but I think that generally speaking I can spot the majority of enemy troops that are near friendlies without needing to zoom in to do it, just by using the scan. For the ones that are away from the front I ignore, and those near friendly flags I go after myself.

I think my way of doing it is better than "sitback" because of the way people play the game. In most games the battle is fought over one or two CPs. Karkand it's usually the bottom two or the bridge, Zatar the middle mountain as two examples. People flock there because that's where the action is and the type of person who gets in a jeep and zooms off behind enemy lines is relatively rare. The kind of person who defends a more isolated CP when you order them to is even rarer. So by using an armoured vehicle to mop up raids you not only keep you CPs you take out enemy tickets too. Using the UAV over the main battle point means you don’t need to spot.

Case in point right here. If you do a scan and leave the screen, the scan stops and you lose the info. And, if you see a guy right next to you, you aren't going to be paying that much attention to guys on other parts of the map, you are going to focus on that guy more than you would have elsewise.

I find it funny that you would make this point after saying that a spec ops is goign to own an engy commander every time. :)
But, if there is any friendly near that CP, you can direct them there and spot the guy constantly for them (well, not to the point of annoyance) and they will have that tactical advantage.

If I scan and see an enemy near me it really does depend on how near as to whether or not I quit the scan. If I am in an APC and spot him it will tell me what he is – unless he’s in armour himself I won’t quit out, I can remember broadly where he is and know he can’t kill me in one shot. If an enemy is near a CP with friendlies naturally I spot him for them, but only the once – once they are alerted to his presence they can usually take care of themselves since they have tactical surprise. Besides, the scan regenerates so quickly even if I am jumped on and need to quit out, my team can handle themselves until it returns. Perhaps that’s “selfish” commanding but I find that my flexibility makes up for it for them in the long run!

Seriously, thanks for the good debate. Best I have had on these boards. Better than the whining we hear most of the time. If it works for you, I say go for it, but I disagree that it is the best you can do. I DO believe you have a good point if you have no squads that listen to you. However, if you have squads that listen and respond, especially with VOIP, I think the sitting back becomes even more important.

We'll see how it works with receptive squads - bound to happen to me some time

We need another point to talk about now :)

[=HzC=Heinz]

Re: Good Commanders- Critical to winning the map

some nice discussion(s) about commander strategies. nice! I must say I'd prefer my commander to be in the back concentrating 100% of the tasks at hand. However, Indigo certainly seems to have thought through his stuff, and I would be more than happy to have him command the team and see how it goes. he seems on his game, IMO.

[evilzucchini]

Re: Good Commanders- Critical to winning the map

One quick point, Indigo.

Use the rebuke squad button. It might annoy some people and they might argue at you and call you names, however, most people when they realize that you are serious will take your orders seriously.

I find that to lead, I have to be a leader. If you are passive about telling people what to do they aren't going to listen because they don't think you are really giving it much thought. I talk to squads all the time, I tell them things, I tell them where enemies are heading and ask for them to tell me things. When they realize that I am being serious, I get responsive squads all the time. 1 or 2 responsive squads is great and rare, especially if you don't try to make them responsive.

I had one time where I had 5 communicative squads, 3 of which stayed together. 3 of which I had to poke and prod to get to respond. At the end, they all commended me on my commanding. We whupped some serious ass.

[SupUnd]

Re: Good Commanders- Critical to winning the map

A commander doesn't simply use his assets. In theory, that commander should also be planning what to do next as well as giving orders to his squads. Those 60 seconds waiting for your assets to be ready again could be well spent giving orders to squards, talking to them to advise them of enemy positions and the such, or simply thinking about how you can retake that base that was just taken by the enemy.

I'm not arguing that you as a commander shouldn't be flying while you command or even can't fly while doing ALL of that described above. If you can, then great. I don't care how you do it either way. If you can't be an involved commander, however, you're not a god one. And involved includes thinking and talking.

[Ind1go]

Re: Good Commanders- Critical to winning the map

let's take this onto a server somewhere and settle this like real men

[Oddboy]

Re: Good Commanders- Critical to winning the map

You wouldn't stand a chance Ind1gloo

[The_Misfit]

Re: Good Commanders- Critical to winning the map

Use the rebuke squad button. It might annoy some people and they might argue at you and call you names, however, most people when they realize that you are serious will take your orders seriously.

EXACTLY. I've played entire maps with commanders that never gave orders, commended or rebuked a squad, or used VoIP. These same tools are usually in a vehicle, or just not using the entire commanders screen to its full potential.

The 1st thing I do is hand out orders, while things charge up. If anyone declines, I'll order them to a different CP. Sometimes a squad could be a group of guys using VoIP or TS/Vent, and they may have their own plans.

Once I have everyone saying 'yes' to their orders, then you drop the scan, uav, arty, etc... When supplies are charged up, hit all of them with 'supplies available' (this is how you earn points, when they request it and you respond). Use VoIP to let them know where arty's hitting / etc...

It's all about communication and devotion to the task. Being in a vehicle you aren't being fair to your abilities as a driver/gunner, nor are you being fair to the team and your abilities as a commander. If you're going to command, hide somewhere and actually do it.

PS - I'll time those aforementioned times, Scan is no where near 60 seconds, much less. If you stagger them along with working with the squads, you'll have plenty to do. Even if all 4 aren't ready, you can always zoom in and spot people.

[evilzucchini]

Re: Good Commanders- Critical to winning the map

Just a tip:
When commanding don't UAV a site and then arty it. It is a blatant waste. Drop the UAV AFTER the arty has finished.

Nothing like directing someone to a CP, droppin arty on it before they get there to clear out the bulk of the people and then giving them a UAV to clean up the rest.

I HATE HATE HATE is when I see an arty falling in the middle of a UAV. How wasteful!