Is the support weapon (SAW) worth upgrading?

[DinaDani]

grenade launchers exist - just because you get killed by one doesn't mean it's cheating or it's unfair. it's a weapon designed for a different tactic - live with it. look at stats of people who use the 203 - they usually won't have a ridiculous kill/death ratio - i sure don't, and i'm pretty skilled with it.

The problem is not that it exists, the problem is that it's too good. Part of this is because it's a one hit, one kill weapon. There are times that I don't even hear the grenade (from the launcher) explode when I die. Now the AT missile is the same in that it also a one hit, one kill weapon (vs infantry), but that is harder to aim at moving targets, moves slower, people see it coming and the rocket doesn't have the spread that the grenade launcher does. You gotta hit spot on with that thing to make a kill, just below/next to the guy and he has just about his full health.

The grenade launcher is certain death with a much larger splash-damage area. It also reloads quicker than the AT missile does. And the assault kit comes with grenades and actually a GOOD gun, stuff which the AT-kit severely lacks (especially the gun).

Other classes aren't powerless ofcourse, but none have the one hit, one kill weapon like the assault class does (defib, claymore and c4 doesn't count). And I didn't say that the grenade launcher doesn't need mastering, but it's not terribly hard either. For references sake, it sure is a lot hell harder to get your AT missiles to actually hit a moving opponent.


Bottomline: the grenade launcher, with a bit of practise, is too powerful (especially in urban maps where the spy-drone helps a whole lot) where quickly strafing out, shooting, strating in of cover is just too frigging good. I've seen it being used in wars vs top-clans in the EU (utopianer, SSV lehnitz, dignitas, pactum, etc) and it's pretty clear that the 203 needs a downgrade.

[Thelron]

The 203 (and its counterparts) certainly are sweet, but they are by no means realistic. However, very few of the weapons could be called 'realistic,' most especially the support guns (and maybe the sniper rifles from their gross inaccuracy, but the LMGs are even further off), especially as you can shove the barrel of your gun into someone's back and *still* get the occasional miss.

That said, changing the way the grenade launchers work to make them more realistic wouldn't *stop* any of the whining about them, because they would become widespread death when used at a proper range (instead of pretty restricted death available at just about any range). So, instead of people dropping a grenade right on top of you and killing you (which if you're playing support is in many cases a waste of a grenade since you are prone and still, and thus a very very easy target) they'll just fire a little earlier, land a grenade in your general vicinity, and blow you to bits anyway.

As for the origional question, if you play support a lot then yes I would say the PKM is a good unlock. If you can get the hang of the differences between the PKM and the faster-firing basic guns you can make yourself a little more dangerous in a lot of situations. There are some times when as USMC the SAW is a bit better (softening up a large group of folks coming across a field or something for the rest of your squad to finish off, the large ammo hopper helps there and the lower damage isn't as big a deal because you're not expecting kills as much as kill assists in a situation like that. The PKM would let you claim a few for yourself pretty quick but you have to be a bit more stingy with your ammo) but I see it as being hands-down better than either of the OpFor guns (the chinese gun is crap and the MEC gun is so close I figure you may as well have fun with your unlock).

[vbl]

The PKM is worthless, other than the lethargic ROF, it is inaccurate, slow loading and noisey as hell. The (buzz)SAW is faster loading, faster shooting and even if you aren't hitting them, they sure the hell aren't thinking about sticking around to aim at you, usually they are runnig for cover. Unlock the G36C, L85A1 *if you haven't already* or the G3, the Barett is a big POS as well.

This is true - the PKM will disappoint you. It has a slow rate of fire, the bullets travel half as fast as all other guns (see graphs here), the cone of deviation is HUGE and you have to wait forever for the accuracy to settle out if you want to single shot with it.

Additional commentary from the site linked above:

Support-kit: This class has without doubt the worst weapons there is concerning accuracy. Their job is to shoot as much bullets over the battlefield as they can. Not much to say about this class, they have a poor first-shot aim, fast buildup and slow recovery. Also note that 'chlmg_type95' and 'uslmg_m249saw' has the same profile. Unfortuanly, since DICE wants the tracers to 'look good', all of the support-weapons also suffers from 'slow projectiles'. Theirs travel at 500m/s while all the other main weapons travel at 1000m/s.

Supposedly the PKM kills faster, but the slower rate of fire means that it shoots fewer, higher power bullets - but when the gun is inaccurate, the bullets fly all over the place and it's useless.

The regular support weapons fire more, less powerful bullets. When you have to spray an area wildly to be effective, bigger clips and faster rate of fire are the only way to go.

The PKM blows. I unlocked it last night and I already regret it.

[big_sammy_b]

Yeah i must admit i rarely go as support of i'm not on the USMC team.

[vbl]

This is true - the PKM will disappoint you. It has a slow rate of fire, the bullets travel half as fast as all other guns (see graphs here), the cone of deviation is HUGE and you have to wait forever for the accuracy to settle out if you want to single shot with it.

Additional commentary from the site linked above:

Support-kit: This class has without doubt the worst weapons there is concerning accuracy. Their job is to shoot as much bullets over the battlefield as they can. Not much to say about this class, they have a poor first-shot aim, fast buildup and slow recovery. Also note that 'chlmg_type95' and 'uslmg_m249saw' has the same profile. Unfortuanly, since DICE wants the tracers to 'look good', all of the support-weapons also suffers from 'slow projectiles'. Theirs travel at 500m/s while all the other main weapons travel at 1000m/s.

Supposedly the PKM kills faster, but the slower rate of fire means that it shoots fewer, higher power bullets - but when the gun is inaccurate, the bullets fly all over the place and it's useless.

The regular support weapons fire more, less powerful bullets. When you have to spray an area wildly to be effective, bigger clips and faster rate of fire are the only way to go.

The PKM blows. I unlocked it last night and I already regret it.

Speaking of this - is there a running thread where small arms issues are logged?

[big_sammy_b]

hmmm not sure what to unlock now

[Grey Fox]

This is true - the PKM will disappoint you. It has a slow rate of fire, the bullets travel half as fast as all other guns (see graphs here), the cone of deviation is HUGE and you have to wait forever for the accuracy to settle out if you want to single shot with it.

Additional commentary from the site linked above:

Support-kit: This class has without doubt the worst weapons there is concerning accuracy. Their job is to shoot as much bullets over the battlefield as they can. Not much to say about this class, they have a poor first-shot aim, fast buildup and slow recovery. Also note that 'chlmg_type95' and 'uslmg_m249saw' has the same profile. Unfortuanly, since DICE wants the tracers to 'look good', all of the support-weapons also suffers from 'slow projectiles'. Theirs travel at 500m/s while all the other main weapons travel at 1000m/s.

Supposedly the PKM kills faster, but the slower rate of fire means that it shoots fewer, higher power bullets - but when the gun is inaccurate, the bullets fly all over the place and it's useless.

The regular support weapons fire more, less powerful bullets. When you have to spray an area wildly to be effective, bigger clips and faster rate of fire are the only way to go.

The PKM blows. I unlocked it last night and I already regret it.

But that site also says:

All graphs are rendered assuming the weapons are shot standing up, no zoom, and doing a three-round burst only.

So in essance your telling us that firing with the PKM, while standing up and not zooming or looking trough reticle, you are innacurate.

And once again for he M203 haters:
The weapons simply isn't overpowerd. It's hard to aim with it, it only works good on madium targets, and mostly on target lying prone, and not in cover.
If someone is far away it's hard to aim at then, plus if they move it is almost impossible. at medium range it is to do, but once again if they take teh time to cover and not act like sitting ducks they would not be killed so easly. Close range you can forget it, it will harm you to, killing someone around the corner is impossible without killing yourself, if you still claim it isn't, prove it with a video. And if you miss, the thing has a hell of long time to reload, plus you only have a few grenades.
Finally it's not lame to kill someone with it, it's lame to ly prone with you grim reaper gun (PKM) and then ***** about it if an assult class player kills you. Yes the assult has the stronges( not over powerd) gun, but it needs to. it's job is to kill the enemy, it can't earn points by healing, it can't earn em by supplying, you can't do jack **** about tanks. If you expect to be on equal term with a assult player when it comes to a confontation then your fooling yourself. And the Nade launcher is there mainly for buggy's, and clusters if enemies and thats what it's most effective for. If you play your class good you shouldn't have to worry about it. And it sure as hell isn't as effective at long range as AT, I have seen numerouse people snipe with the AT gun but never with the nade launcher.

[hirebrand]

Well put it this way, the PKM does as much damage as the MEC sniper rifle. :)

[Umi.Ryuuzaki]

If you know how support plays and works, the PKM is a nice weapon. Unlocks per se aren't really upgrades - but rather, "alternatives" imho. The PKM, from experience and observation on a friend's account, is a butcher. I think though, support could use a slight accuacy upgrade...but:

Does anyone remember BFV and when it came out initially? How the M-60 was literally a force that was just wrong? I think DIce/EA wants to avoid that again.

[P3teR]

It's not just about shooting thru glass but SVD has a really bad range on it. It's pretty much just an assault rifle with a scope on it.

[imported_Champion]

ROFL that site uses standing up with no zoom? OF COURSE you aren't going to hit ****. You have to be prone with the support weapon, and it becomes very accurate. On many occasions I have taken out people with assault rifles in long range firefights with the support kit. Don't hate the support kit if you haven't given it practice.

[SubmitDFL]

PKM owns. Plus you will be more inclined to play as support, which will get you a lot of extra point going towards your next unlock. If I did it over again, I would have gone PKM first.

www.DFLxtreme.com

[imported_Champion]

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7775/weaponstats8ff.jpg

Look at deviation when prone for the support weapons.

[vbl]

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/777...onstats8ff.jpg

Look at deviation when prone for the support weapons.

Mmmhmm, then look at the deviation added per bullet (it's the highest of all weapons).

When ROF is high, each bullet adds a ton of deviation and the time to recover to optimal accuracy is loooong... it's ineffective.

[Roderick]

Does anyone here that is anti the way Support weapons work now actually use the weapon and have really attempted to learn the weapon? Have you tried the weapons for more than one or two turns and then switched off to a weapon with more accuracy like Special Ops or a Sniper?

I am curious just how much time has been put into using Support before players that hate the kit complain about it on these forums. I tested it for two full days without weapon switching and now I run around with it all the time and have not used AT since. The Support weapons own if used properly.