APCs...What were they THINKING?!

[WolfAlmighty]

I'll start off by saying that the APC, above anything else, is what makes Berlin the crappiest city map in the game. The spamcannon is so powerful against infantry and has such a ridiculous splash radius that it's hands down the biggest infantry rapemachine in the game. This benefit is somewhat mitigated on vehicle maps because aside from FAVs it doesn't do much damage to vehicles.

But that brings us to the EMP shot. Whose bright idea was it to allow an APC, which is already the second fastest ground vehicle to begin with, to be able to disable any other vehicle in the game with a simple right-click? You could argue that this is meant as an escape tactic to quickly disable the enemy vehicle that's attacking you and allow you time to drive off, but what about tanks? Nekos can barely even turn around as fast as an APC can circle it and EMP it. Plus, when EMPed, your shields don't even work, so it's very easy for some tardbox to EMP your tank, drive right up behind you, and Pilum you in the arse and all you can do is sit there and take it like a biatch. Sure, you could get out, but you still lose the tank (either it gets destroyed or nicked). APCs, unlike tanks, don't even have an OHK spot so as a tank driver if you see one of these things coming you can count on it taking at least two hits before it goes down (usually three or four), plus waiting through the shields, and that's more than enough time for him to EMP you and get in behind for the cheesy OHK. Maybe the designers just hate tanks for some reason. :hmm:

And while we're on the subject, why the hell can a single EMP nade spammer completely lock down the damn Goliath? The chuffing thing is so slow already, you'd think that the designers of it would have given it EMP shielding of some sort. It's funny as hell that this mammoth machine which can spit motion mines, has a shotgun attachment, two MGs, two splash damage cannons, and the ability to regenerate itself, can be single-handedly castrated by some tosser with an ammo box on the other side of a hill. WTF?

[imported_Cade]

Re: APCs...What were they THINKING?!

APC, above anything else, is what makes Berlin the crappiest city map in the game

I guess. But thats why you can play infantry only if its that much of a bother.


The emp never bothered me. Sure you can somewhat lockdown a enemy vehicle, but APCs have pretty weak armor as it is. An everything you've mentioned is in terms of 1-on-1. What's to stop a allied engineer from blowing away the apc while it shoots emp at you repeatedly? What's to stop another squadmate from hunting down the emp spamming support enemy?

Use teamwork. Travel with your squad. Never have these problems.

(unless of course you're all caught outside a vehicle and get apc 'naded )

[Minmaster]

Re: APCs...What were they THINKING?!

the PAC needs the APC on berlin, but EU doesn't. it is very hard for PAC to break through without using the vehicles given.

[WolfAlmighty]

Re: APCs...What were they THINKING?!

What's to stop a allied engineer from blowing away the apc while it shoots emp at you repeatedly? What's to stop another squadmate from hunting down the emp spamming support enemy?

What's to stop an enemy sniper from shooting your allied engineer before he shoots the AV missile? Then what's to stop a friendly sniper from sniping the enemy sniper? Then what's to stop the enemy gunship gunner from shooting your sniper? (I'm sure you see where I'm going with this ).

Use teamwork. Travel with your squad. Never have these problems.

Thanks for the tips, but I'm afraid you're completely missing the point of the post. :p Personally, EMP just pisses me off. It's like having someone randomly bust into your computer room and unplug your mouse and keyboard for you for five seconds, then plug them back in (provided you didn't rip his arms off and beat him to death with the bloody stumps before the aforementioned five seconds had elapsed). I think it's ridiculous that your shields don't even work while EMPed. You'd think the designers of the vehicles would have made shields run on some sort of independant auxiliary power or something.

[imported_Field]

Re: APCs...What were they THINKING?!

idk i tend to agree that the goliath should be better defended against emp especially little emp nades. it s

[Wizrdwarts]

Re: APCs...What were they THINKING?!

They're fine on vehicle maps.

APCs don't have real AT power except for the engi/recon driving. A lone APC without support from other armor or AT infantry can't do much against a decent tank/walker pilot. Stick with a walker/tank, it's beneficial and fun for both of you.

And have you ever been in an APC battle? There should be some rules of engagement that states that 2 lone APCs can't fight lol.

[Shurikane]

Re: APCs...What were they THINKING?!

Hold it.

I'll start off by saying that the APC, above anything else, is what makes Berlin the crappiest city map in the game. The spamcannon is so powerful against infantry and has such a ridiculous splash radius that it's hands down the biggest infantry rapemachine in the game.

Why do you run into the APC's line of fire? Why do you let the APC see you? Are you trying to take it down from up front? Did you choose an obvious position to take it down? Did you spawn engineer? Did you take cover and coordinate with your CO to bring down an orbital strike on it?

The most, the very most important question: why do you or anyone in your team run into the APC's line of fire? What is there to do in this deadly area? Can you lure it forward instead? Can you pin it down with motion mines? Can you use your own APC as a temporary meatshield to allow comrades to bust through and perform a maneuver on the enemy?

But that brings us to the EMP shot. Whose bright idea was it to allow an APC, which is already the second fastest ground vehicle to begin with, to be able to disable any other vehicle in the game with a simple right-click? You could argue that this is meant as an escape tactic to quickly disable the enemy vehicle that's attacking you and allow you time to drive off, but what about tanks? Nekos can barely even turn around as fast as an APC can circle it and EMP it. Plus, when EMPed, your shields don't even work, so it's very easy for some tardbox to EMP your tank, drive right up behind you, and Pilum you in the arse and all you can do is sit there and take it like a biatch. Sure, you could get out, but you still lose the tank (either it gets destroyed or nicked).

Why did you let yourself get so close to the APC when you know it can do this against you? Why did you take a tank, a machine of precision and long-range shooting, into a close-quarters encounter? Did you see the APC coming? Did it sneak up on you? Did you choose your spot well? Again, why has the APC been able to come so close without you having a backup plan against it? Could you have landed a shot, then finished it off with a quick Pilum? Could you have timed your escape to get out safely and take down your opponent?

APCs, unlike tanks, don't even have an OHK spot so as a tank driver if you see one of these things coming you can count on it taking at least two hits before it goes down (usually three or four), plus waiting through the shields, and that's more than enough time for him to EMP you and get in behind for the cheesy OHK. Maybe the designers just hate tanks for some reason. :hmm:

Tanks remain at long range until the area is safe. I expect a knowledgeable tank driver to get the hell away from me if he sees me coming up front in an APC. A good tank driver will not let me have a potential window at his rear.

And while we're on the subject, why the hell can a single EMP nade spammer completely lock down the damn Goliath? The chuffing thing is so slow already, you'd think that the designers of it would have given it EMP shielding of some sort. It's funny as hell that this mammoth machine which can spit motion mines, has a shotgun attachment, two MGs, two splash damage cannons, and the ability to regenerate itself, can be single-handedly castrated by some tosser with an ammo box on the other side of a hill. WTF?

EMPs immobilize you but do no damage. It is you, your shotgun, your machine guns and all your other deadly gizmos against one support soldier. Did a passenger not get out to take care of the pest? Did you have any passengers? Was anyone accompanying you? If not, why was the Goliath sitting in the middle of nowhere like that in the first place without any form of crew or backup?

[WolfAlmighty]

Re: APCs...What were they THINKING?!

Hold it.



Why do you run into the APC's line of fire? Why do you let the APC see you? Are you trying to take it down from up front? Did you choose an obvious position to take it down? Did you spawn engineer? Did you take cover and coordinate with your CO to bring down an orbital strike on it?

The most, the very most important question: why do you or anyone in your team run into the APC's line of fire? What is there to do in this deadly area? Can you lure it forward instead? Can you pin it down with motion mines? Can you use your own APC as a temporary meatshield to allow comrades to bust through and perform a maneuver on the enemy?

Erm...have you ever even played Berlin? There are only three places you can get through past the first flag, and the mortar spam is more than adequate for taking out any soldier around there. Without a doubt the commander is the most capable of taking out the APC, but that's assuming you have a commander that is willing to do so and not simply drop an orbital on the highest concentration of infantry. Without that, it can be almost impossible to take out the EU APC, since if you can see him, he can spam you. He just has to hit the wall somewhere close to you and you're toast.

Why did you let yourself get so close to the APC when you know it can do this against you? Why did you take a tank, a machine of precision and long-range shooting, into a close-quarters encounter? Did you see the APC coming? Did it sneak up on you? Did you choose your spot well? Again, why has the APC been able to come so close without you having a backup plan against it? Could you have landed a shot, then finished it off with a quick Pilum? Could you have timed your escape to get out safely and take down your opponent?

You do know that an APC is faster than any tank, right? Even moreso than a crabbing Neko (although in that case just barely). You do know that the EMP can be lobbed quite a ways, and if it hits you you're stopped for 3-5 seconds, during which time the APC is still driving full speed and you can't even turn around to shoot, right? By the time you start moving again and have lined up the shot, he can pop shields (if necessary) and EMP you again. It's seldom difficult to be able to get an APC into close range unless you're around draw distance at the start, at which point the APC can zigzag and usually dodge a tank round or two.

And I'm not sure what you mean by timing your escape. The APC's behind you and you're as mobile as a one-legged dog when EMPed, so if you do get out he's closer to the APC than you are and the chances of you being able to kill him with your SMG or whatever (maybe an AR would be the best chance) before he pops a Pilum and gets back in is almost none.

Tanks remain at long range until the area is safe. I expect a knowledgeable tank driver to get the hell away from me if he sees me coming up front in an APC. A good tank driver will not let me have a potential window at his rear.

Again, unless the APC is at draw distance, if he's coming for you he has a chance at EMPing you. You stand a chance at dodging the EMP by strafing the Neko a bit, but good luck trying that with the Tiger. Once you're EMPed, you're not going anywhere, 'the hell away from the APC' or otherwise. You're there and you're staying there for about 5 seconds. In the meantime, guess who's getting into closer quarters? One more EMP and he's as good as behind you. It's not so much the EMP alone that bugs me, it's the OHK to the back and the fact that there's nothing you can do about it even if you know it's coming. Now, if the APC had an OHK zone where you could get out of the tank and plug a missile into him after which you guys could have it out, then fine, but it doesn't. It's more armoured than a tank. Then again, so are FAVs, apparently. :hmm:

I still don't get why you can't pop shields while EMPed. That way, you could at least protect yourself against it and in order for the guy to try it again he would have to get out of the craft long enough to reload his Pilum, then get back in the APC and try again, giving you a window of opportunity to fight back.

EMPs immobilize you but do no damage. It is you, your shotgun, your machine guns and all your other deadly gizmos against one support soldier. Did a passenger not get out to take care of the pest? Did you have any passengers? Was anyone accompanying you? If not, why was the Goliath sitting in the middle of nowhere like that in the first place without any form of crew or backup?

The point isn't that one of your passengers could get out and kill the guy, or the commander could orbital him, or the support guy could lag out if his roommate is downloading pr0n, the point is why the hell does a vehicle as ominous as the Goliath get completely immobilised from one dinky little EMP grenade? It's this giant behemoth with regenerative cells and untolled amounts of firepower, and one pitiful little EMP nade can stop it and all of its gun turrets dead in its tracks. The message delivered by the WTF flag ceases to be adequate.

And have you ever been in an APC battle? There should be some rules of engagement that states that 2 lone APCs can't fight lol.

I still remember the demo and the earlier days of the game where APCs would stop face-to-face and just mortar spam each other. Some people finally started getting wise and either just said 'Screw it' and drove past or getting out and popping off a quick engie missile, but it was hilarious all the same. It would almost be more effective to just get out and hurl insults instead.

[imported_Field]

Re: APCs...What were they THINKING?!

They're fine on vehicle maps.

APCs don't have real AT power except for the engi/recon driving. A lone APC without support from other armor or AT infantry can't do much against a decent tank/walker pilot. Stick with a walker/tank, it's beneficial and fun for both of you.

And have you ever been in an APC battle? There should be some rules of engagement that states that 2 lone APCs can't fight lol.

when i play northern strike on EU side and am using a walker i tend to follow the goliath around and defend it. very profitable

with the apcs this wouldnt make sense but i think it would be nice if apcs were unaffected by apc emp shells

[BF.pAc*Alt+F4=HaxxxoR]

Re: APCs...What were they THINKING?!

Yea I don't really enjoy slogging around in the Goliath in the first place but when I do your always geting spammed with EMP nades. I think the Goliath should only be affected by the EMP Strik BUT I don't know about EMP mines...

[WolfAlmighty]

Re: APCs...What were they THINKING?!

when i play northern strike on EU side and am using a walker i tend to follow the goliath around and defend it. very profitable

with the apcs this wouldnt make sense but i think it would be nice if apcs were unaffected by apc emp shells

Yeah, I usually do that myself when I'm in an APC; follow friendly tanks around and EMP enemy vehicles making them easy kills. Doesn't get me many points or kills (unless the guys jump out of the vehicle, heh) but I'm already brig so points don't matter to me. Unfortunately, I know how aggrivating it is to be EMP-locked so I do somewhat feel bad doing that, but it's amusing watching the pack mentality of a herd of tanks surrounding an immobilised walker. :p

[Shurikane]

Re: APCs...What were they THINKING?!

Erm...have you ever even played Berlin?

Yes.

There are only three places you can get through past the first flag, and the mortar spam is more than adequate for taking out any soldier around there. Without a doubt the commander is the most capable of taking out the APC, but that's assuming you have a commander that is willing to do so and not simply drop an orbital on the highest concentration of infantry. Without that, it can be almost impossible to take out the EU APC, since if you can see him, he can spam you. He just has to hit the wall somewhere close to you and you're toast.

You can sneak up by the EU apc - not with relative ease but at least with enough leeway to allow you a window to pass through unnoticed. First, the northern side as cloaked recon. Doable as a testing method. Keep an eye out for the enemy UAV, wait for it to vanish, then sprint through. Have your squad provide cover and distract the enemy's eyes. If everyone opens fire on you on sight, that means an IDS is around, so that way is a no go.

Next, the dead center. Often an overlooked spot. Everyone's busy with trying to take out the PAC's vehicles, so if they go off to the southern side, you can cloak and sprint past the opposition since they'll be watching the edges, but not the middle. With the right circumstances, can be done surprisingly well and not many defenders expect this since not many attackers do it. Again, wait for the enemy UAV to vanish so you are guaranteed a window.

Lastly, the Pod-Over method. You will need one engineer with motion mine bait or a defuser. Have him run forward to check out for mines, and clear them out if necessary. Once done, approach the southern fence and have you and your men switch to seat 3 and pod over the fence to sprint over to the west side of the map, leaving the APC's driver to retreat to safety or establish a standoff at his current location. This method works wonders as you'll be squeezing in a large force in a tight space, overwhelming the defense there and countering traps easily if you have motion mine bait - otherwise the defuser will do the trick just nicely. To be pulled off immediately after an enemy orbital strike to guarantee the enemy CO will not punish your attempt.

You do know that an APC is faster than any tank, right?

Yes.

You do know that the EMP can be lobbed quite a ways, and if it hits you you're stopped for 3-5 seconds, during which time the APC is still driving full speed and you can't even turn around to shoot, right?

If the APC can lob an EMP and immobilize you long enough to hit your side, you let him get too close. If the APC can lob an EMP and immobilize you long enough to hit your rear, then you let him get much, much too close. This won't happen in practice if it comes to you head-on. You'll have more than enough time to soften it up and then say "Oh yeah? Well I've got a Pilum up in this beeatch too!"

Trust me, if your aim is true, this APC will not be able to close in on you without sacrificing itself, at which point the best it can hope for is a statlemate - and an APC driver will usually not dare to do that. He is more likely to escape and either try later with some backup, or seek to avoid you entirely. You need two shots to take the APC down, and the driver will assume that you are engineer.

When I speak long range, I speak of extreme range, the point where your target is actually at draw distance for your hardware. I speak of seeking hilltops like those at Verdun east and Shuhia Taiba west to allow you some more time to intercept incoming APCs as they spend their horsepower climbing the hill.

And I'm not sure what you mean by timing your escape. The APC's behind you and you're as mobile as a one-legged dog when EMPed, so if you do get out he's closer to the APC than you are and the chances of you being able to kill him with your SMG or whatever (maybe an AR would be the best chance) before he pops a Pilum and gets back in is almost none.

Should your health be full (and it should!) then you have one second to bail out as soon as you hear the alarm and return fire. Either you SMG the enemy engineer to death, or if you know his vehicle's about to go, Pilum it first and use the concealment of smoke to switch weapons and engage in another duel. If you bail out too soon and he gets it in his noggin to steal your ride, he'll have hopped into a shieldless tank and it's now your opportunity to strike his rear. An enemy will not try to steal your tank unless he sees you and concludes you're not an engie.

The point isn't that one of your passengers could get out and kill the guy, or the commander could orbital him, or the support guy could lag out if his roommate is downloading pr0n, the point is why the hell does a vehicle as ominous as the Goliath get completely immobilised from one dinky little EMP grenade?

Simple. Because an EMP is that powerful. Yes, it's an annoying mosquito to deal with, but that support guy can't do anything else than delay the inevitable unless he has buddies - just like you can simply shrug off this little delay if you have buddies too. In the end, it's a hurricane in a glass of water and an EMP's really the least of a driver's worries when he should be out looking for RDX, engineers and mines. That support can EMP you 'till he's blue in the face, but while he does that, he's completely vulnerable and ripe for the picking.


See, this is why I don't care much about aimbotters and other cheap shots. They can aim, so what? They're on foot and I'm in a tank. I'm in a jeep. I'm in an APC, a walker, a gunship, what have you. I've got medics around me to revive me while the others rocket the guy to death. Intelligence nullifies trickery. He can aimbot all he wants, he's gonna get killed and I'll be still alive. Someone can ESP hack - I've got an Otus drone, an IDS and some squadmates. He'll be dead, and I'll be still alive. Those guys can have all the cheats and tools in the world - I've got a brain, I've got buddies to back me up and I've got a plan. They will be dead, and I, just like GLaDOS, will be still alive.

While my team bitches and whines about how the enemy is overpowered, I'm already at the back flag and doing my job. Less QQ, more pew pew.

[WolfAlmighty]

Re: APCs...What were they THINKING?!

Yes.

...It was a rhetorical question.

You can sneak up by the EU apc - not with relative ease but at least with enough leeway to allow you a window to pass through unnoticed. First, the northern side as cloaked recon. Doable as a testing method. Keep an eye out for the enemy UAV, wait for it to vanish, then sprint through. Have your squad provide cover and distract the enemy's eyes. If everyone opens fire on you on sight, that means an IDS is around, so that way is a no go.

Next, the dead center. Often an overlooked spot. Everyone's busy with trying to take out the PAC's vehicles, so if they go off to the southern side, you can cloak and sprint past the opposition since they'll be watching the edges, but not the middle. With the right circumstances, can be done surprisingly well and not many defenders expect this since not many attackers do it. Again, wait for the enemy UAV to vanish so you are guaranteed a window.

Lastly, the Pod-Over method. You will need one engineer with motion mine bait or a defuser. Have him run forward to check out for mines, and clear them out if necessary. Once done, approach the southern fence and have you and your men switch to seat 3 and pod over the fence to sprint over to the west side of the map, leaving the APC's driver to retreat to safety or establish a standoff at his current location. This method works wonders as you'll be squeezing in a large force in a tight space, overwhelming the defense there and countering traps easily if you have motion mine bait - otherwise the defuser will do the trick just nicely. To be pulled off immediately after an enemy orbital strike to guarantee the enemy CO will not punish your attempt.

While that's all well and good, you're assuming that your team has its act together and the other team is pants-on-head retarded. While this may be true a lot of the time, it merely circumvents an imbalance. Using similar logic, people could say Wake 2007 is balanced if the J-10 pilots crash into trees.

If the APC can lob an EMP and immobilize you long enough to hit your side, you let him get too close. If the APC can lob an EMP and immobilize you long enough to hit your rear, then you let him get much, much too close. This won't happen in practice if it comes to you head-on. You'll have more than enough time to soften it up and then say "Oh yeah? Well I've got a Pilum up in this beeatch too!"

You underestimate the distance at which those EMP shots can be lobbed. Obviously, at longer ranges it's more difficult to use, but the same can be said for tank rounds, and with hit detection being what it is, getting a tank round to even register at longer ranges even if it seemingly hits can be the most difficult task of all.

When I speak long range, I speak of extreme range, the point where your target is actually at draw distance for your hardware. I speak of seeking hilltops like those at Verdun east and Shuhia Taiba west to allow you some more time to intercept incoming APCs as they spend their horsepower climbing the hill.

Not all maps have a great deal of hills. Tampa, for example, has only a couple of hillocks in the middle of the map. The Refinery flag and Checkpoint West are the only ones that really benefit from any hills to speak of, and I suppose to a lesser extent so does Storage Area. The problem is, if you're on the hills you cannot defend the flags since they're covered by buildings or fences, so your only hope at actually being useful is being out on the open terrain, and that's where APCs can go balls-to-the-wall all the time.

Should your health be full (and it should!) then you have one second to bail out as soon as you hear the alarm and return fire. Either you SMG the enemy engineer to death, or if you know his vehicle's about to go, Pilum it first and use the concealment of smoke to switch weapons and engage in another duel. If you bail out too soon and he gets it in his noggin to steal your ride, he'll have hopped into a shieldless tank and it's now your opportunity to strike his rear. An enemy will not try to steal your tank unless he sees you and concludes you're not an engie.

I seldom see the guy stand around to confirm his kill. He gets out, Pilums, then gets back in in less time than it would take to kill someone with an SMG. As for the shieldless tank, that's only true if you had the wherewithall to pop shields prior to getting EMPed, because I've gotten EMPed, popped shields, hopped out, had the tank nicked, switched to the rocket and lo and behold the newly-nicked tank pops shields and turns around. So if you wait until AFTER EMPed to hit the shields, it's too late.

Best way I've found around this is to be recon and RDX rig your tank prior to fighting, so that if you get EMPed and bail, you can blow up the tank after it gets stolen, or if you still lose the tank, you can cloak and hopefully hide amid the wreckage and smoke so the APC loses you. Problem is, I don't find that going Recon in a tank is useful in any other situations (although I have seen a few people jihad tank :shock: ).

Simple. Because an EMP is that powerful. Yes, it's an annoying mosquito to deal with, but that support guy can't do anything else than delay the inevitable unless he has buddies - just like you can simply shrug off this little delay if you have buddies too. In the end, it's a hurricane in a glass of water and an EMP's really the least of a driver's worries when he should be out looking for RDX, engineers and mines. That support can EMP you 'till he's blue in the face, but while he does that, he's completely vulnerable and ripe for the picking.

Sorry, I don't buy it. It's just BS and a design flaw for the Goliath to be immobilised by EMP nades. I don't mind an EMP strike doing it because that's a massive blast of EMP from outer-****ing space, but a tiny grenade? Ludicrous. The only saving grace is that the driver himself can get out without fear of letting the Goliath get captured, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's BS.

See, this is why I don't care much about aimbotters and other cheap shots. They can aim, so what? They're on foot and I'm in a tank. I'm in a jeep. I'm in an APC, a walker, a gunship, what have you. I've got medics around me to revive me while the others rocket the guy to death. Intelligence nullifies trickery. He can aimbot all he wants, he's gonna get killed and I'll be still alive. Someone can ESP hack - I've got an Otus drone, an IDS and some squadmates. He'll be dead, and I'll be still alive. Those guys can have all the cheats and tools in the world - I've got a brain, I've got buddies to back me up and I've got a plan.

And if there's a whole squad of botters against your squad? Then what? And if they've got a brain and a plan and buddies? What happens then? It's great that you don't mind people who cheat and screw other players over because you have your ubersquad, but let's compare apples to apples here.

BTW, how did this turn into a discussion about aimbotters?

They will be dead, and I, just like GLaDOS, will be still alive.

So...what happened the other 15134 times, pray? (Just jesting, don't take it personal :thumbsup: ).

[imported_Cade]

Re: APCs...What were they THINKING?!

Oh, you're just ranting.

My mistake.

[WolfAlmighty]

Re: APCs...What were they THINKING?!

Oh, you're just ranting.

My mistake.

It's okay, just don't let it happen again.