stand still so that i can shoot you!

[Kylee!]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

This thread is quite the clash of the titans, lmao.

Simplicity is the right way to go IMO. Meaning don't worry about it so much... Their view is their view, and especially since its the internet it probably won't change.

[imported_Whiskey]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

Let me pose this question: Would bunny hopping still be an issue if it weren't so effective?

Hard to answer that, because if it weren't so effective, fewer people would do it, thus it wouldn't be as big of an issue...

However, if you want a 1-word answer, I'd tend to lean toward "yes". Remembering back to the early days of MOH:Spearhead, hopping wasn't nearly as prevalent on pub servers, and it was fairly easy to kill those players, so I'd guess that it wasn't as effective. Even so, although I can't speak for every server out there, I know that a lot of servers and admins had "no hopping" rules. So from the examples of that time period, hopping was likely not as effective, yet was still a significant issue that admins cracked down upon.

How do you feel when you're singled out? Do you like it when people call you a cheater? It's the same feeling when people ask you to stop bunny hopping

I'd say that one difference though is that when it comes to hopping, a player is in full control of their behaviour, so their own chosen actions are causing them to be singled out. A fairly knowledgeable skilled player joining a pub server is probably aware that some servers don't allow hopping. If he does it without knowing the rules, then he's making a choice and taking the chance of consequences. I agree that a player should get a reasonable warning and more than 1 chance before being kicked, however, unless they are blatantly doing it on purpose.

If it were about realism, the supposed Real-World people you've spoke of would all be happily playing by themselves on a CoD4 mod, or the latest Rainbow Six release

People in this debate keep referring to realism as absolute, like in a sim-game such as Rainbow Six. As I've said several times now, a total realism simulator is not what a lot of people are looking for - just that a couple key things like jumping+shooting with accuracy, or flopping+shooting with accuracy be toned down. Yes, some people will always find more things to complain about, but these are the 2 big movement-based issues that keep coming up. Ideally, the dev teams would put in simple options that server admins could adjust to either allow or disallow these actions.

This is about the supposed Real World people you spoke of wanting their cake and eating it too. You just simply can't enforce people to play your way without expecting complaints

The very same point can be made back at the competitive/skilled players. Even though they are in the vast minority numbers-wise, their comments indicate they want to play their way on every ranked server, without tolerance for the variety that many other players want. There is also a lack of respect for the groups who do actually pay for those servers...even if their rules are dumb, it's their right. Many players expect to play for free on these servers, but without obeying their rules.

If COD4 didn't have the ranked server system, I would agree that it would be less of an issue, but because of the difficulty of attracting traffic to unranked servers due to the default browser filter, and because some groups just don't know how to mod, many of them simply use a regular server with rules.

I don't think I've been rude. Considering you've been playing the moderate throughout this whole ordeal, I've been very amiable. I highly doubt you'll see much support for your side of this issue on these boards - seeing as this web-board features more competitive players who, like me - bunny hop frequently.

You haven't been rude at all, which is why I have no problem discussing this with you. And yes, I do realize that the population of this forum is tilted more toward the competitive community, so I didn't expect much support. Because of that I knew this would be an uphill battle, and I have no illusions about converting the masses.

I'm not going to keep going on and on, as I've explained the points I wanted to, some of these issues are starting to go in circles, and I know that some people will never change their minds no matter what. But I did want to take the time and make the effort to go into this stuff in more detail, again to shine a bit of a light on the reasons why this issue keeps coming up, so that at least some people could maybe understand it better going forward and be less hostile. Too many people want this to be black and white, and it's not. It's a complex issue that has developed over time as games have changed and as their communities have mixed together. There's room for everybody, if they use a bit of tolerance and restraint.

[Dairuka]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

Hard to answer that, because if it weren't so effective, fewer people would do it, thus it wouldn't be as big of an issue...

However, if you want a 1-word answer, I'd tend to lean toward "yes". Remembering back to the early days of MOH:Spearhead, hopping wasn't nearly as prevalent on pub servers, and it was fairly easy to kill those players, so I'd guess that it wasn't as effective. Even so, although I can't speak for every server out there, I know that a lot of servers and admins had "no hopping" rules. So from the examples of that time period, hopping was likely not as effective, yet was still a significant issue that admins cracked down upon.

Kind of like n00b tubing nowadays. They suck nowadays in both BF2 and CoD4.... So if someone cries about it, most people laugh it off as a whine from a newbie who got killed by a grenade launcher... Still, we people are set in our ways. So even now there are still no grenade launcher rules out there on certain special-olympics type servers.

People are somehow still afraid of it because of past experiences in older games. Signifying that even if bunny hopping was completely removed, people who have been burned by it would still put up those rules out of spite, or respite.

I'd say that one difference though is that when it comes to hopping, a player is in full control of their behaviour, so their own chosen actions are causing them to be singled out. A fairly knowledgeable skilled player joining a pub server is probably aware that some servers don't allow hopping. If he does it without knowing the rules, then he's making a choice and taking the chance of consequences. I agree that a player should get a reasonable warning and more than 1 chance before being kicked, however, unless they are blatantly doing it on purpose.

Yes, we are supposed to remove any and all habit-formed capabilities, effectively hindering ourselves for the sake of other players. We are supposed to handicap ourselves, for the sake of other players. We are supposed to completely squelch that nagging feeling deep inside that tells us Why are you playing like this? You can do better! Use that sprint button! Stop using the sights all the time! For christ sake, jump away from that grenade! - just because of some arbitrary rules set up...

As for those very rules you speak of, very few servers post their rules in a clear and concise manner. Worse yet, some servers purposely leave out their rules so people like me can help them fill up their servers, before they ban us. The best run servers with rules that I've come across have their rules scroll across the screen every 5 minutes...

Of course, 5 minutes is plenty of time to get banned.

People in this debate keep referring to realism as absolute, like in a sim-game such as Rainbow Six. As I've said several times now, a total realism simulator is not what a lot of people are looking for - just that a couple key things like jumping+shooting with accuracy, or flopping+shooting with accuracy be toned down. Yes, some people will always find more things to complain about, but these are the 2 big movement-based issues that keep coming up. Ideally, the dev teams would put in simple options that server admins could adjust to either allow or disallow these actions.

And why would you want to tone them down? They've become an integral part of the competitive community. Sure they seem silly, but so does grenade spamming. You don't see people in the military throw 3 grenades in two second successions. You don't see people hunkering down in front of a wall firing an endless stream of 5.56mm NATO bullets through a wall to kill masses of unsuspecting enemies spawning nearby. People in the military don't have constant surveillance of these precious little circular Radar-like Gun-fire Detectors/UAV's allowing them to see where the enemy is 24/7... You don't see helicopters out there capable of plowing down mass platoons of completely hidden snipers in guile suits preying down in a grassy knoll...

Yet only bunny hopping seems to get picked on...

I guess pulling a john woo style jump and duck is a lot more silly looking than running around with an iPod in your hand that magically tells you where all your enemies are - but only works when someone on your team kills 3 enemies in a row.

I guess successfully jumping and diving away from a grenade is a lot more silly looking than shooting aimlessly through a wall...

I guess jumping and ducking behind cover is a lot more silly looking than a man throwing three grenades aimlessly into the air...

Face it... People are only picking and choosing what they want to remove for the sake of realism or real world likeness, for the sake of preserving their own ego for whatever reasons they feel necessary.

The very same point can be made back at the competitive/skilled players. Even though they are in the vast minority numbers-wise, their comments indicate they want to play their way on every ranked server, without tolerance for the variety that many other players want. There is also a lack of respect for the groups who do actually pay for those servers...even if their rules are dumb, it's their right. Many players expect to play for free on these servers, but without obeying their rules.

Digital Anarchy! made that same argument about their BF2 server once. They believed that because they owned their server they were allowed to redline non-clan members, team-kill whenever they wanted, and to be able to kick and ban anybody who threatened their ever so valuable kill/death ratio. These are actual rules of theirs. Which explains why their server is constantly populated by dozens of their own clan members team-stacked on one side..

If COD4 didn't have the ranked server system, I would agree that it would be less of an issue, but because of the difficulty of attracting traffic to unranked servers due to the default browser filter, and because some groups just don't know how to mod, many of them simply use a regular server with rules.

There are specialty organizations usually have rules that enhance the game-play and promote realism that can't be found in public servers.

For instance: http://www.totalgamingnetwork.com/ma...play.php?f=802

Perhaps it's time to adopt one and leave the public servers to the crazy pubbers like me.

You haven't been rude at all, which is why I have no problem discussing this with you. And yes, I do realize that the population of this forum is tilted more toward the competitive community, so I didn't expect much support. Because of that I knew this would be an uphill battle, and I have no illusions about converting the masses.

You'll note that many of the people here aren't willing to visit a server with arbitrary rules.

Why? Because they know better. We've all been spited at one point or another.

Because many of these servers prey on the uninformed. Much like with the Digital Anarchy! servers of BF2, there is always a steady stream of new players, or blissful idgits who flock to servers that're filled to the brim with clanners just aching to team-stack and attack. The moment somebody with any skill hops on, they can use their rules to dump that jerk as fast as he logged in...

This is not uncommon. This is not the exception to the rule. This is the normal. The servers you're defending are the exception to the rule. The people you're trying to defend are the minority... the rarity. The absolute diamond in the rough, people whom I've never met before in hundreds of hours logged in CoD4, and hundreds of servers visited.

This is why people can't understand your point of view. We've been spited too many times by the mass-majority of servers who abuse these arbitrary rules to the fullest. Until we find this special server whom you're speaking for, I highly doubt any of us will ever understand.

I'm not going to keep going on and on, as I've explained the points I wanted to, some of these issues are starting to go in circles, and I know that some people will never change their minds no matter what. But I did want to take the time and make the effort to go into this stuff in more detail, again to shine a bit of a light on the reasons why this issue keeps coming up, so that at least some people could maybe understand it better going forward and be less hostile. Too many people want this to be black and white, and it's not. It's a complex issue that has developed over time as games have changed and as their communities have mixed together. There's room for everybody, if they use a bit of tolerance and restraint.

It's a complex issue that has developed a great deal of prejudice among the populace...

It's a sad thing that bunny hoppers are widely despised for doing nothing more than playing the game.

I'm not all that surprised that many bunny hoppers have become bitter and resentful.

[imported_Field]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

I know that some people will never change their minds no matter what. .

what is the chance that YOU change your mind? why do you think the way you do?

. You don't see people in the military throw 3 grenades in two second successions. You don't see people hunkering down in front of a wall firing an endless stream of 5.56mm NATO bullets through a wall to kill masses of unsuspecting enemies spawning nearby. People in the military don't have constant surveillance of these precious little circular Radar-like Gun-fire Detectors/UAV's allowing them to see where the enemy is 24/7... You don't see helicopters out there capable of plowing down mass platoons of completely hidden snipers in guile suits preying down in a grassy knoll...

.

you cant fairly say what "people in the military" actually do. then as far as choppers mowing down a bunch of people that are hiding have you not heard of infra-red? as far as uav stuff there are a lot of toys being made nowadays you'd be surprised how high-tech stuff has gotten to be. it is very.."modern"

some of these issues are starting to go in circles, .

yes some of these issues are starting to go in circles i agree



there is nothing complex about this whole thing. every person playing a given game has aspirations for being the best player of that game. everyone enjoys the game more when they are playing at a high level and outperforming the other people.










many times when playing bf2142 on high population camp G servers i would deal with the issue of RDX HOPPING, some guy jumping around exploding bombs at his feet and exploiting the no-friendly fire in place in the server and exploding countless enemies. many people would find this annoying. I personally would find it annoying and would tell him that "hes only doing that because he cant shoot." but was he not doing what he could to play his best in the game? the game DID allow him to do it so technically i shouldnt be complaining.

i would always think to myself, "if i had my own server i would ban people for rdx hopping or i would just turn ff=on. heck, i dont like people mech whoring when theres only 6 people in the server so maybe i would ban for that too! i would MAKE RULES so I COULD PLAY BETTER!!

RDX HOPPING IS RETARDED, its NOT REALISTIC AT ALL!




most of these thoughts come from your anger when somone doing something gets the better of you



but then my higher brain and logical thinking prevail and conclude that you cant change reality or influence others in a dictatorial manner. this is not the way. If you want to perform and ultimately enjoy the game you need to be more intelligent and THINK YOUR WAY AROUND PROBLEMS that are presesnted to you.



to me...frivalous rules arent just something for appealing to niche players. frivalous rules are a tool for LIMITING skill progression, speed, coordination and ultimately HUMAN THOUGHT. These server owners are effectively working to drag the fps gaming community down into a pit of mediocrity.



and really most people posting here dont even know what REAL is because they have never done it. so the idea of TR is out of sorts.



the truth about bunnyhopping is....reaction skills and eye-hand coordination. Younger fitter people have more of it. Older 35 year old people have less of it. thier playstyle and ideology reflect that.

[solofowaffles]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

[imported_Field]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

its people talking about stuff......Cap'n Pick-Hard

[solofowaffles]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

its people talking about stuff......Cap'n Pick-Hard

Carry on.

[Kreepy Kitteh =^o.O^=]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

lol too much talk... Mods have the right to do what the f*ck they want... Sure there are some as*holes out there and there are also people who don't like hoppers... That's all.

[Dairuka]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

Winner!

Still, it's not as if there was a flurry of activity in these forums before Whiskey and I came around.

Just like the good old Chris_Redfield vs Dairuka in TBF2 days.

I miss Chris...

[Keyelite]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

Dairuka wins

[Illmuri]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

Regardless of whether hopping is skilled play or not, or what mindset people have, it is getting difficult to find good servers sometimes that wont start kicking or complaining at the drop of a hat.

I really dont like bunny-hopping, but then that depends on your definition. I am fine with a single jump. Two or three jumps in a row is bunnyhopping.

If your argument is that bunnyhopping isnt "realistic," I would point out that you can think of a person jumping to the side as if they were diving, like a soccer goalie. Just because the artists of the game didnt faithfully draw someone diving to the side doesnt mean the motion is "unrealistic."

Yes, despite wearing a MICH, a flak jacket with two ballistic plates loaded with gear, carrying a rifle, and wearing combat boots, I could jump around. In fact, you might say I had to bunny hop my way up to the top of my humvee.

In any case, trying to define people as one mindset or the other is tough because its not a binary solution. I dont like bunny hopping because I prefer realism (yes I have ArmA and R6), but its also a game with mechanics in it to learn and master. I think its ridiculous how I get kicked for hopping, but I also believe in people getting to do what they want on the server they pay for.

Regardless of what you might think of it, the thread starter had a point: its sad to see the pervasive anti-hopping attitude that has filled most servers. Yes, there are many servers and if I get kicked I can always move on (doesnt hurt my feelings), but its very difficult to find a pub server where I can play like I do without someone commenting on my jumping and denigrating me just because I play differently than they do. I dont start complaining just because all someone else can do is camp.

[jake_]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

mostly too long and I didn't read mostly.

I usually just laugh at bunnyhoppers and shoot them. Its just a gimmick. If you have good aim you'll still get your frag.

[Kreepy Kitteh =^o.O^=]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

Reminded me of this.

[jake_]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

Winner!

Still, it's not as if there was a flurry of activity in these forums before Whiskey and I came around.

Just like the good old Chris_Redfield vs Dairuka in TBF2 days.

I miss Chris...

so do I.