stand still so that i can shoot you!

[bajsglad]

what is this new deal about not being allowed to use the jumpbutton anymore? i have ben banned from half the servers i used to play on. why, because i am a bunny or a pixie or a fairy or a dolphin. seriously! who makes up these things? and why don't we all just remove the spacebutton from our keyboards? apparently it doesen't belong in the game anymore. being able to dodge bullets used to be part of what seperated the noobs from the pros, but now the game has ben totally noobyfied! on many servers the console actually says "don't jump to avoid bullets"! it's like saying, don't run or you have to alert the other player befor openig fire. it sucs the fun right out of the game! and what is bunnyjumping anyway? is there a difference between bunnyjumping and regular jumping? what, jumping twice? there is nothing to gain by doing that! if someone jumps twice they can't move in any other directions. the only thing harder to hit is the legs. who aims for the legs?!

[Dairuka]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

what is this new deal about not being allowed to use the jumpbutton anymore? i have ben banned from half the servers i used to play on. why, because i am a bunny or a pixie or a fairy or a dolphin. seriously! who makes up these things? and why don't we all just remove the spacebutton from our keyboards? apparently it doesen't belong in the game anymore. being able to dodge bullets used to be part of what seperated the noobs from the pros, but now the game has ben totally noobyfied! on many servers the console actually says "don't jump to avoid bullets"! it's like saying, don't run or you have to alert the other player befor openig fire. it sucs the fun right out of the game! and what is bunnyjumping anyway? is there a difference between bunnyjumping and regular jumping? what, jumping twice? there is nothing to gain by doing that! if someone jumps twice they can't move in any other directions. the only thing harder to hit is the legs. who aims for the legs?!

It's a common problem that spans over almost every FPS in existence, and is primarily the reason why I absolutely despise server operators who use these arbitrary; easy to abuse and misinterpret rules.

I leave servers the moment any rules that try to limit my ability to play the game to it's fullest show up, and support servers that don't cater to an egotistic system operator with a quick trigger finger on the ban-button, merely because his quick trigger finger can't aim worth a damn when it's mashed down on the left mouse button.

As a bunny hopper who frequently plays against bunny hoppers better than I am; I can attest that it's not hard to kill bunny hoppers. You only died because you were surprised, and incapable of doing anything more than spraying and praying; I'm sorry your prayers weren't answered, but Jesus only helps those who help themselves. Steel your nerves, steady your aim, and for god-sake. Don't stand still and let the bunny hopper have an easy target!

[iQue]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

You lose accuracy when bunnyhopping, no to mention that you come to a complete stop on the landing so I don't really see why people make such a big deal out of it. Most people have too slow reactions I guess and bans anything that moves faster than a fly.

True story: I'm out of ammo, need to reload and jumps around the corner graciously to avoid certain death. I am kicked and temporarily banned. What, I'm supposed to just stand there and get killed? ^^

[imported_Whiskey]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

IMO, from having seen complaints on both sides of this argument for many yrs, the problem is that there is a divide between players of (for lack of a better word) "sci-fi" type games like Quake/UT/etc, and games based in more "real-world" environments (MOH, COD, etc).

- Players of the sci-fi games have more of an "anything goes" approach, and have developed their skills that way. They want a fast-paced, high adrenalin atmosphere. In this world, you use anything and everything at your disposal to survive and win.

- Players of the real-world games generally want to use movements/tactics/etc that mimic what goes on in the actual world (to a point - I'm not talking about the small number of 100% total realism players out there, so please don't misinterpret that). They want to experience some level of immersion as if they were actually there in that conflict (WWII, Middle East, etc). In this world, players try to stick to movements/tactics that are likely to happen in the real world (again, to a point, but not 100% realism). Just a quick/blatant example - a US Marine in Iraq isn't going to blindly jump around a corner, in ironsights, and flop onto his stomach.

When the two types of players clash on the same server, there is conflict.
Sci-fi players (incorrectly) view the R-W players as noobs having less skill.
R-W players in turn (also incorrectly) view sci-fi players as noobs who aren't smart/patient enough to play properly, who put themselves in harm's way, and who have to spaz/jump/flop to avoid dying, instead of shooting back.

Both viewpoints are based on misconceptions. Some players don't really believe the other is inferior, but as soon as one or the other rants about it, then the gloves come off and the insults come out.

Most R-W players choose to not use those moves - it's not because they can't, it's because it ruins the game for them.
And Sci-fi players aren't stupid/mindless kids who just run out into the middle of the street - they're fast-paced players who want total freedom of action.

One of the great things about gaming is the variety it allows, to have all of these different environments/games out there. There's more than enough room for everyone to have what they want, but it also takes some consideration and suppression of egos. A R-W player should not expect R-W rules and complain if playing a game like UT, and a sci-fi player should be prepared, when playing a R-W game, that some pub servers don't want to see people hopping and flopping around, and adapt their tactics accordingly.

If more people on both sides would get those concepts into their heads, instead of trying to make themselves feel superior, and the other group inferior, we'd get a lot less complaining. It's a stupid argument, and I hate seeing it come up over and over again.

[bajsglad]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

i don't think it's a stupid agrument. tho you make some good points, i play paintball and i sometimes tend to slide into a "dolphin" like move, and it works.lol, so it's not that unreal. these "real-world players" you speak of.. i like to refer to them as campers, and there really is no argument for campers. if you can give me one, i'll make you a diploma.

[imported_Field]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

eh i find servers that have arbitrary rules to be kind of annoying and i dont quite understand what is going through people's heads when they put these kinds of rules in place. If i want immersion i will go play lazer tag or paintball.

i am ok with servers that might run a mod of the game and physically change the game mechanics so you are in fact not ABLE to do certain things but playing on a regular server with the original game mechanics and having someone telling you not to do certain things I find it REALLY hard not think of myself as superior to them because to ME they are trying to create an environment for themselves where they can be more successful for some reason or another.

if its in the game, you cant tell people not to do it. what you need to do if you want people to play a certain way is to mod the game and change the game mechanics thereby your not even giving them an option to break any rules. that is the only real way.

[imported_Whiskey]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

these "real-world players" you speak of.. i like to refer to them as campers

I think you're making an incorrect classification there. Camping is a specfic act/tactic that you'll find in all varieties of FPS games, whether real-world or not. If you can sit still, have better aim, and more protection, people are going to use it. You might have a valid argument in saying that most campers could be R-W players, but it's not even close to being valid to say that most R-W players are campers.

I don't care for camping either. Some like to say that it's simply "waiting in ambush", which is a valid R-W tactic, but if everyone used it, then the games would be pretty damn boring. Although I wouldn't call it "wrong", to me it does seem kind of lame to do for long periods of time.

Unfortunately, the kill streaks in COD4/CODWW lend a lot of legitimacy to camping - it's very effective for snipers, so I think a lot of people have adopted the same approach by camping with other weapons, increasing their chances of staying alive longer and calling in kill streak bonuses. I don't think the dev teams fully realized the impact of this while making the game. I've been on servers where it's just a steady stream of airstrike/chopper from a single sniper or camper in a good position, let alone multiple ones.

Interestingly enough though, camping is probably not a bad counter-tactic to use against hoppers and corner divers, assuming you know where they tend to roam, you have good aim, and are at med-long range away (which largely neutralizes their movement).

[Kylee!]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

Whiskey, I think you've got it right... almost.

The two groups, instead of those that you pointed out...

- Players of the sci-fi games have more of an "anything goes" approach, and have developed their skills that way. They want a fast-paced, high adrenalin atmosphere. In this world, you use anything and everything at your disposal to survive and win.

- Players of the real-world games generally want to use movements/tactics/etc that mimic what goes on in the actual world (to a point - I'm not talking about the small number of 100% total realism players out there, so please don't misinterpret that). They want to experience some level of immersion as if they were actually there in that conflict (WWII, Middle East, etc). In this world, players try to stick to movements/tactics that are likely to happen in the real world (again, to a point, but not 100% realism). Just a quick/blatant example - a US Marine in Iraq isn't going to blindly jump around a corner, in ironsights, and flop onto his stomach.

Should be the:

Competetive Players - The people who play in leagues, not so much TWL, but more CAL/CEVO. Here you have everyone doing all they can to exploit,figure out, and use every single aspect of the game that they possibly can. These are your more acrobatic types. They view almost every game they play as a video game and not a real life simulation where they can get some action.

Casual Players / War Buffs / Simulators / and pretty much everyone else : The people like me a few years back who played FPS for the sake that they would actually be able to attain some of the cool attributes of real warfare, and that bunny hopping was rediculous... and that no one could possibly aim that fast... and that everything is just a bit slower to match my own tastes and preferences. Back when I played Americas Army and BF2, this was my view on things.

Safe to say, I gave up that view on the account that I got better and stopped caring about the simulation aspect and started caring more about the arcade aspect and basically just trying to kill, beat, out think, and out play anyone who opposes me.

Now you'll find I'm more involved in competitive gaming. I Play CS:S religously, and am coming up on my fourth season of CAL. Not to mention all the scrims with Solace in CoD4 (Go Ice Cold Gaming! lol). Although I'm slowly coming to my senses that I play way too much for my own good.

Anyway, you're right about both sides thinking they're superior to the other in every way, I know I've been there, on both sides. Once you see the big picture (Would be nice to know the "big picture" not in a spot so frivilous as video games), it tends to soften your view on the whole thing.

[Dairuka]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

IMO, from having seen complaints on both sides of this argument for many yrs, the problem is that there is a divide between players of (for lack of a better word) "sci-fi" type games like Quake/UT/etc, and games based in more "real-world" environments (MOH, COD, etc).

I was a CS player instead. I never got into Quake or Unreal Tournament.

- Players of the sci-fi games have more of an "anything goes" approach, and have developed their skills that way. They want a fast-paced, high adrenalin atmosphere. In this world, you use anything and everything at your disposal to survive and win.

You're trying too hard to divide us.

- Players of the real-world games generally want to use movements/tactics/etc that mimic what goes on in the actual world (to a point - I'm not talking about the small number of 100% total realism players out there, so please don't misinterpret that). They want to experience some level of immersion as if they were actually there in that conflict (WWII, Middle East, etc). In this world, players try to stick to movements/tactics that are likely to happen in the real world (again, to a point, but not 100% realism). Just a quick/blatant example - a US Marine in Iraq isn't going to blindly jump around a corner, in ironsights, and flop onto his stomach.

Too bad these are video games, and not realism simulators. There are realism simulators out there, such as America's Army, and the many mods for BF2 and CoD4 such as Project Reality.

When the two types of players clash on the same server, there is conflict.
Sci-fi players (incorrectly) view the R-W players as noobs having less skill.
R-W players in turn (also incorrectly) view sci-fi players as noobs who aren't smart/patient enough to play properly, who put themselves in harm's way, and who have to spaz/jump/flop to avoid dying, instead of shooting back.

I sometimes go around and use only my knife, but I don't cry when somebody sprays and prays me to death.

Both viewpoints are based on misconceptions. Some players don't really believe the other is inferior, but as soon as one or the other rants about it, then the gloves come off and the insults come out.

I get many angry slurs about my inferiority for relying on bunny hopping.

I ignore it. When I get booted, I usually move on. I find it exceptionally aggravating that I actually have to put up with this crap for doing nothing more than playing the game.

Most R-W players choose to not use those moves - it's not because they can't, it's because it ruins the game for them.
And Sci-fi players aren't stupid/mindless kids who just run out into the middle of the street - they're fast-paced players who want total freedom of action.

You're still trying to divide people into two groups. When the only group that people really should care about are the abusive admins who use those rules unfairly for their own advantage and nothing else.

One of the great things about gaming is the variety it allows, to have all of these different environments/games out there. There's more than enough room for everyone to have what they want, but it also takes some consideration and suppression of egos. A R-W player should not expect R-W rules and complain if playing a game like UT, and a sci-fi player should be prepared, when playing a R-W game, that some pub servers don't want to see people hopping and flopping around, and adapt their tactics accordingly.

You're right. So why aren't the supposed real world players trying out the CoD4 mods that give them precisely what they want?

Oh, wait, I know the answer to that... because this isn't about realism. Real World players bunny hop too.

If more people on both sides would get those concepts into their heads, instead of trying to make themselves feel superior, and the other group inferior, we'd get a lot less complaining. It's a stupid argument, and I hate seeing it come up over and over again.

It's a very stupid argument, but everybody needs to remember that Bunny Hoppers are only interested in playing the game.

We have the same rights to play the game as non-bunny hoppers do.

Yet in game, we have to deal with people calling us inferior for relying on cheap tactics like bunny hopping - we have to deal with boot after boot from servers who don't openly explain their rules.

We deal with abuse for doing nothing more than playing the game.

Why should we just sit by and accept it? Face it, if you want these arguments to go away, then stop supporting servers that abuse the rules.... start supporting the MODS that effectively REMOVE BUNNY HOPPING.

I think you're making an incorrect classification there. Camping is a specfic act/tactic that you'll find in all varieties of FPS games, whether real-world or not. If you can sit still, have better aim, and more protection, people are going to use it. You might have a valid argument in saying that most campers could be R-W players, but it's not even close to being valid to say that most R-W players are campers.

It's a distinct contrast of the label you're placing on the rest of us, nothing more.

I'm sorry you don't like the label - but how does it feel? Just because I've gotten used to the label of bunny-hopper, doesn't mean it's any less of a label.

I don't care for camping either. Some like to say that it's simply "waiting in ambush", which is a valid R-W tactic, but if everyone used it, then the games would be pretty damn boring. Although I wouldn't call it "wrong", to me it does seem kind of lame to do for long periods of time.

If everybody walked with their guns out in aim, the game slows down to a crawl and becomes damned boring... Either that or it'd turn into what I experienced on the Tactical Realism servers.... a grenade spam fest - which is even more damned pathetic since you could actually get banned for running and jumping away from a grenade.

Unfortunately, the kill streaks in COD4/CODWW lend a lot of legitimacy to camping - it's very effective for snipers, so I think a lot of people have adopted the same approach by camping with other weapons, increasing their chances of staying alive longer and calling in kill streak bonuses. I don't think the dev teams fully realized the impact of this while making the game. I've been on servers where it's just a steady stream of airstrike/chopper from a single sniper or camper in a good position, let alone multiple ones.

The Dev Teams knew exactly what they were doing when they made CoD4. They gave us a fast paced, closely-spaced run'n'gun shooter with semi-realistic yet completely fictional elements reminiscent to modern warfare. This of course made the game into the huge success that it is, rivaling that of CoD2.

Interestingly enough though, camping is probably not a bad counter-tactic to use against hoppers and corner divers, assuming you know where they tend to roam, you have good aim, and are at med-long range away (which largely neutralizes their movement).

It's a horrible counter-tactic. If I die to a camper once, I return with a flash/stun grenade, or a cooked grenade.

[Kreepy Kitteh =^o.O^=]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

lol I couldn't count how many times I have hopped right up to someone with an AK and stuck a knife in the top of their head.... Never gets old...NEVER!

[imported_Whiskey]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

Whiskey, I think you've got it right... almost.

The two groups, instead of those that you pointed out...

Should be:
Competetive Players
Casual Players / War Buffs / Simulators / and pretty much everyone else

*snip*

...I've been there, on both sides. Once you see the big picture (Would be nice to know the "big picture" not in a spot so frivilous as video games), it tends to soften your view on the whole thing.

Good post, and your description may be more accurate as to what the divide between players is. The only info I get about the true competitive community is through some podcasts and posts on forums like this, so I'll defer to your knowledge on that point.

I'm glad you made that final point as well. It's those who can see both sides of the issue, without being clouded by anger and ego, than can understand it better.

You're trying too hard to divide us.

The divide already clearly exists, and has for some time. Ignoring it or not delving into it deeper doesn't help. I've seen it develop over the yrs, read a lot of people's thoughts about it on forums, and spoken to them about it. I'm trying to help people understand some of the reasons behind its existence, instead of them going on emotional assumptions.

Too bad these are video games, and not realism simulators. There are realism simulators out there, such as America's Army, and the many mods for BF2 and CoD4 such as Project Reality.

I specifically mentioned, twice, that I wasn't talking about people who want 100% realism, as they are a small, extreme group. Mimicking a R-W setting is what games like COD set out to do, so it's not unreasonable for many players to play with that mindset. That doesn't mean total realism, but it can mean something more reasonable.

I get many angry slurs about my inferiority for relying on bunny hopping.

There are also a lot of players who, even when asked politely to stop hopping/flopping, go off with angry rants and expletives telling the admin where to go. It's not one-sided. Both groups are to blame for the venom that exists.

When the only group that people really should care about are the abusive admins who use those rules unfairly for their own advantage and nothing else.

It sucks that you've had such bad experiences with corrupt admins on TR servers, as it has clearly become a major focus in many of your posts, and that's understandable. Abuse by admin is a very unfortunate side-effect, but I don't believe there's any sinister conspiracy out there behind it. For most servers, the rule-sets are simply meant to adjust the flavour of gameplay (either for groups who don't have access to a mod, or those who realize that ranked servers get much more traffic). Some of those servers just flat-out have crappy admins, or ones who have gotten fed up over time and are now too quick on the ban button. But I just cannot accept that most of them have put rules in place primarily so that they can pwn and have excuses to kick players.

..

I'm sure people will agree to disagree on this hot-button problem, and that's fine. But I do want to try to convey that this isn't a simple issue as some might think. There are a lot of different reasons why people feel the way they do about it. If more people could leave the emotion behind, take a step back and try to understand why each feels the way they do about it, there would probably be less name-calling and rude conflict over it.

[bajsglad]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

well, now i'm exhausted from all this reading. but honestly, i have to say that i still have no sympathy for people wanting to bann me because i jump. i had heard about bunnyhopping before, but the latest few months the anti-jump propaganda has gotten extreme. to the point that i can't join a server without getting flamed for doing a "dolphin"(lol!). these people are insane! what, real marines can't jump to duck for cover? that makes no sense! i don't have the energy to write a 1500 word text explaining all the obvious reasons why this is so wrong. but i will say this.. Douchebags ruin games!

[Keyelite]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

When I play games, I observe everything. From the way you walk, run, crouch, jump, shoot, which weapons work in certain situations. I learn every nook and cranny of the game in order to be successful. The game itself is the boundary for me, not the real world. Of course you are not going to jump around corners prefiring in real life. But I will in COD4, since it's a game and that's what you can do. In other games, you can't bunny hop effectively (or other stuff), so it's not a viable tactic.


If they wanted to remove bunny hopping and make it more "true" to the real-world, they would have made it so you can not fire when you jump. The fact that they did not, and made it so you still had a great deal of accuracy jumping while zoomed in means that this is an ARCADE GAME, and is NOT simulating the real world. This arcade feel is also exemplified in the single player, where hordes of enemies continue to fire at you and you can become a rambo "one vs all" player (they even have ARCADE mode after you beat the campaign).

I know those who kick and oppose bunny hopping players do it based on their own morals. They would rather stick to what they feel is the right thing instead of learning on how the game is really played. (among other reasons)

So bottom line: This game is not a realism game, this was not meant for you. Try a game like ArmA, Rainbow Six, etc, that might suit your style more. The hardcore setting is not even realistic, because of the mechanics of the game. Find a game that has a more realistic mechanic and you will see way less complaints about bunny hopping, etc.

[imported_Field]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

yeah seriously instead of trying to think about this really hard its just best to go with the idea that people are always going to do whatever the game allows them to do and if certain individuals dont like how things play out......

tough tomatoes.

[Dairuka]

Re: stand still so that i can shoot you!

The divide already clearly exists, and has for some time. Ignoring it or not delving into it deeper doesn't help. I've seen it develop over the yrs, read a lot of people's thoughts about it on forums, and spoken to them about it. I'm trying to help people understand some of the reasons behind its existence, instead of them going on emotional assumptions.

Divides only exist because we divide each other. I'd rather not feed the conflict. Instead, I'm much happier making my verbal tirades towards only the extremists on either sides, as they are the real offenders.

I specifically mentioned, twice, that I wasn't talking about people who want 100% realism, as they are a small, extreme group. Mimicking a R-W setting is what games like COD set out to do, so it's not unreasonable for many players to play with that mindset. That doesn't mean total realism, but it can mean something more reasonable.

Let me pose this question: Would bunny hopping still be an issue if it weren't so effective?

There are also a lot of players who, even when asked politely to stop hopping/flopping, go off with angry rants and expletives telling the admin where to go. It's not one-sided. Both groups are to blame for the venom that exists.

How do you feel when you're singled out? Do you like it when people call you a cheater? It's the same feeling when people ask you to stop bunny hopping, since you know that a ban is inevitable if this request is made by an admin. It's essentially the same as being asked "Stand still so that I can shoot you!" (Hint: The name of the thread.)

Less savory characters probably won't leave quietly. The difference is, they're inevitably going to be forced to leave anyways.

It sucks that you've had such bad experiences with corrupt admins on TR servers, as it has clearly become a major focus in many of your posts, and that's understandable. Abuse by admin is a very unfortunate side-effect, but I don't believe there's any sinister conspiracy out there behind it. For most servers, the rule-sets are simply meant to adjust the flavour of gameplay (either for groups who don't have access to a mod, or those who realize that ranked servers get much more traffic). Some of those servers just flat-out have crappy admins, or ones who have gotten fed up over time and are now too quick on the ban button. But I just cannot accept that most of them have put rules in place primarily so that they can pwn and have excuses to kick players.

It's not about a sinister conspiracy, and I mainly use Tactical Realism as an example merely because they are the worst offender. Just like I used Digital Anarchy! as my main examples back on the Battlefield 2 boards. Just like I use Doorman is God as my main example on the Team Fortress 2 boards.

Rules have always been precursors for misinterpretation, and abuse.

Even good intentions are led astray by power.

I'm sure people will agree to disagree on this hot-button problem, and that's fine. But I do want to try to convey that this isn't a simple issue as some might think. There are a lot of different reasons why people feel the way they do about it. If more people could leave the emotion behind, take a step back and try to understand why each feels the way they do about it, there would probably be less name-calling and rude conflict over it.

I don't think I've been rude. Considering you've been playing the moderate throughout this whole ordeal, I've been very amiable. I highly doubt you'll see much support for your side of this issue on these boards - seeing as this web-board features more competitive players who, like me - bunny hop frequently.

I will also alert you up front... if you tried to make an argument like this on the Cyber Athlete or Team Warfare boards, you'd be made a mockery of by hundreds of posters who shun public servers mostly because of arbitrary rules like the ones you're defending.

Arbitrary rules limit competition, and as a result, limit fun for an exceptionally large chunk of the fan-base.

I would personally be less inclined to complain about these rules, were the rules of a server more accessible. I'd be more inclined to avoid these servers. I'm sure other players would do the same.

The main reason people avoid posting these rules so openly is the same reason why they avoid using mods... It invariably hurts the server's average population, and in some-cases, can even kill the server overall.

That my friend is why I know this whole ordeal isn't about realism at all. If it were about realism, the supposed Real-World people you've spoke of would all be happily playing by themselves on a CoD4 mod, or the latest Rainbow Six release, leaving Call of Duty 4 to those of us who enjoy Arcade Shooters with a realistic visage.

This is about the supposed Real World people you spoke of wanting their cake and eating it too. I'm sorry, but Call of Duty 4 isn't a tactical realism simulator. You just simply can't enforce people to play your way without expecting complaints, especially when all they're doing is playing the game the way it was meant to be played.