Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

Ok, thats certainly proves that piracy is rampant in some circles. But then I don't understand what you motive was in posting that article, when you are pirating games yourself? What point are you trying to make?

Cute. Now that youre proven to be mistaken, youre still trying to say "youre wrong". :laugh:

If you would actually pay any attention to what Im writing, you wouldnt be asking about the point Im trying to make. Why I linked the article here, is to show a lot of console-haters what problems a developer faces when hes maing games for the PC. Piracy being one of them. People always think that 10% is the absolute MAX. Whereas in practice, the numbers are reversed. Theres more music and software pirated than it is being bought legally.

My reasons for pirating vary, but lack of money is definitely not it. I certainly do not pirate all my games, but I choose to deliberately harm the devs by pirating a half-as5ed game. Im a story buff, so if the game has bugs, but the story is worthy, Ill just say "fukitol".

I am not claiming that there is no piracy problem, but it is also obvious that some publisher would rather blame piracy than admitting that they are making crap.

Yes, but it certainly is not 10% a lot of folks are trying to make it out to be. Its far closer to 100%, than 10%.

Likewise it is easier to throw inflated numbers at clueless politicians than trying to come up with a reliable licensing method.

Theres no such thing. Unless the game is played in online mode. If the game is in offline mode, you can pretty much make it run non-Steam (for example). If its online, only then you can create a verification link between the client and the master server.

[Dan2k3k4]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

So, is that your approach to bad work by your dentist too?
If you pay for a product then you have every right to complain if it doesn't work like advertised.

I guess I should have reworded my sentence. I was mainly thinking of the people who pirate a game and then complain about it, you shouldn't really complain about something you've never paid for. Sure it's good if you were providing constructive critism about the pirated game, but for people who clearly are just trying to degrade a game in the harshest way possible should think about how much they spent on it and how much the developers spent on it.

I mean, yes there are terrible games out there, and I guess if someone 'pirates' a game to test it out, and realises how bad it is. They'd want to try and inform other people to not make a 'big mistake' of purchasing that game. Which is ok in one way, but for someone to clearly point out how bad a developer is, and use rude language as a way to try and give the name a bad name, well it's pointless.

Tho I don't think I'm making sense at the moment, I should re-read this later...

[jesus]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

Cute. Now that youre proven to be mistaken, youre still trying to say "youre wrong". :laugh:

If you would actually pay any attention to what Im writing, you wouldnt be asking about the point Im trying to make. Why I linked the article here, is to show a lot of console-haters what problems a developer faces when hes maing games for the PC. Piracy being one of them. People always think that 10% is the absolute MAX. Whereas in practice, the numbers are reversed. Theres more music and software pirated than it is being bought legally.

My reasons for pirating vary, but lack of money is definitely not it. I certainly do not pirate all my games, but I choose to deliberately harm the devs by pirating a half-as5ed game. Im a story buff, so if the game has bugs, but the story is worthy, Ill just say "fukitol".



Yes, but it certainly is not 10% a lot of folks are trying to make it out to be. Its far closer to 100%, than 10%.



Theres no such thing. Unless the game is played in online mode. If the game is in offline mode, you can pretty much make it run non-Steam (for example). If its online, only then you can create a verification link between the client and the master server.

How does deliberately downloading a copy of a half-*** game hurt the company? Would you have bought the game in the first place? Or do you just say "Oh, look, the reviews say this game sucks so I'm going to download it just to make the company lose money."

What money would be lost? If you're not a potential buyer, then there's no money being lost there. Plus, no money went into the reproduction of the copy you downloaded. It's not like you stole it from the store where they had to pay for the box, the manual, the actual disc, etc.

[=98=]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

How does deliberately downloading a copy of a half-*** game hurt the company? Would you have bought the game in the first place? Or do you just say "Oh, look, the reviews say this game sucks so I'm going to download it just to make the company lose money."

What money would be lost? If you're not a potential buyer, then there's no money being lost there. Plus, no money went into the reproduction of the copy you downloaded. It's not like you stole it from the store where they had to pay for the box, the manual, the actual disc, etc.

I'm not defending companies, i'm just putting across their points of viwe

If you were interested in the game, and you couldn't download, yes, you probably would have bought it. Secondly, by download the games, you support the sites that host the download files. Lastly, it's piracy, it's illegal, no getting away from that.

Also, if you download and find it's a good single player game such as Crysis. You don't finish level one and say "damn, i enjoyed level one, i best go buy the real thing", you finish the whole game via the downloaded version and be done with it.

[Dairuka]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

Maybe they should try making innovative games, instead of competing on who can spend the most cash on making the shiniest shooter?

Winner.

[MrChris_CJ]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

I think Vreki is talking about a continued and longlasting degeneration of game quality over the years, dumbing down etc

Blame the consoles among other things

(sarcasm+flame mode off!)

[Vreki]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

Cute. Now that youre proven to be mistaken, youre still trying to say "youre wrong". :laugh:

Neither of us has "proven" anything Chris. But for me to believe that piracy is so rampant AND is significantly hurting sales, then I would like to see:

• An independent study showing the percentage of PC games that are pirated, including their method for obtaining the results
• A study showing what sales are actually lost due to piracy, again with description of their method

Until they can provide that, articles like the one in your OP just seem like an excuse for making a crappy game.

Theres no such thing. Unless the game is played in online mode. If the game is in offline mode, you can pretty much make it run non-Steam (for example). If its online, only then you can create a verification link between the client and the master server.

There might currently be no such thing, but if the publishers spent some money on funding research by Mathematicians and computer scientist, they could get a viable solution.
But they much prefer to spend to money on ads to overhype unfinished games, and lobbying to make the law fix their problems

I guess I should have reworded my sentence. I was mainly thinking of the people who pirate a game and then complain about it, you shouldn't really complain about something you've never paid for.

True.

I think Vreki is talking about a continued and longlasting degeneration of game quality over the years, dumbing down etc

Blame the consoles among other things

(sarcasm+flame mode off!)

Partly. I mean, we get constantly told that the cost of making games is sky-rocketing, haven't you sometimes paused and wondered where all that cash vent, because it doesn't seem to make it into the games?

Sure there is higher details in objects and textures, but so far I can see that's it. The BF series is often mentioned as having less and less content with each release.

When I look at my game library it seems that they are all descendants in a straight line from either Dune 2, Wolfenstein 3D or Eye of The Beholder.
What happened to innovation?

[=98=]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

There might currently be no such thing, but if the publishers spent some money on funding research by Mathematicians and computer scientist, they could get a viable solution.

It would be pointless for an offline game. Whilst i don't support illegally copying games, i'll say this:

Pirates will always be one step ahead of the companies. For everyone maths genius with a degree from an excellent University who works for these companies, there will be two maths geniuses who live online and can write, crack and reverse engineer code to pirate the game. It's pointless unless the game is online.

I remember when Half Life 2 was announced as being effectively un-pirateable since the code was so locked down and you had to register online. Yet we had already completed the game in school before it had come out. I realise that was completely wrong on my part, but it goes to show piracy is here to stay. It's not something you can bulldozer out the way or simply remove, you need embrace new technology, like Steam has done, and find a way to encourage people from downloading games.

I don't know the answer myself, and i not many people do.

[Vreki]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

Pirates will always be one step ahead of the companies. For everyone maths genius with a degree from an excellent University who works for these companies, there will be two maths geniuses who live online and can write, crack and reverse engineer code to pirate the game. It's pointless unless the game is online.

That is because they rely on what is called "security through obscurity".
The moment their algorithm is known, it becomes worhtless.

Compare that to Cryptology, where some of the most used algorithms are open source, and still works very well.

ETA: And I dont claim to know the solution either, but I believe it is to be found at the level of theoretical science, not by the programmers of each software developer.

[Dairuka]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

The most important tool against piracy, is a good multi-player game that can only be accessed by a legit copy of the game.

[Eagle101]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

^ thats one of the reasons i started buying original copies

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

The most important tool against piracy, is a good multi-player game that can only be accessed by a legit copy of the game.

Shazam!

Using this method, the offline mode can easily work as a demo for pirates.

Neither of us has "proven" anything Chris.

Youre backpedalling now. You were wrong. Now take out that R gear.

But for me to believe that piracy is so rampant AND is significantly hurting sales, then I would like to see:
An independent study showing the percentage of PC games that are pirated, including their method for obtaining the results
A study showing what sales are actually lost due to piracy, again with description of their method
Until they can provide that, articles like the one in your OP just seem like an excuse for making a crappy game.

The amusing thing is that you were already trying to use my friends as an example of low-level piracy. And when I told you that every single one of my computer-gaming friends pirates their software, your arguments came to a grinding halt. If youre being shown a direct comparitive numbers between a game on two platforms, and the platform which sells 10X less is actually the games target/home platform, what else except for common sense do you need? Youre just struggling for your own prides sake. Even a blind man can see that, and those of us who know how the P2P system works, have pirated ourselves and have people around us who play PC games, are not surprised by those numbers. Not to mention that the researches have been done before, Im sure you can go and Google something up. The notion that theres only about 10% of losses due to piracy is retarded. Looks like someone doesnt know what happens in the Asian market, and if people are the same, can anyone honestly say that European and US markets are that much different?

Internet is the answer.

There might currently be no such thing, but if the publishers spent some money on funding research by Mathematicians and computer scientist, they could get a viable solution.
But they much prefer to spend to money on ads to overhype unfinished games, and lobbying to make the law fix their problems

Hmm, while I agree that my knowledge about content security is dim, yours are even worse. Whatever the crap devs throw at the bootlegged pirates, they will either crack or circumvent it, equally rendering it useless. The fact that to this date, every single offline game has been cracked, attests to that. You can easily locate and crack the files responsible for piracy check midgame, or circumvent them alltogether. For every talented person sitting in a cubicle, theres a hundred sitting home.

Online verification is the key. But frankly, Id like to buy my games off the shelves, and so do millions. So the perfect solution for the devs would be to keep fighting for the offline component, but not act surprised if pirates come rolling. Instead, capitalize from the strenghts of the offline mode. You can easily make is so that you need to register at the master server and every time you log on, your game and CD key gets checked. Then a server will check your status and the master server will keep checking each server aswell.

Its up to devs, to make complicated systems work seamlessly and comfortably. They manage that, they rack up the green.

[Vreki]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

Shazam!
Using this method, the offline mode can easily work as a demo for pirates.
Youre backpedalling now. You were wrong. Now take out that R gear.

You have a single-track mind Chris. Every thread with you is the same, you have made up you mind from post 1, and everyone who does not share your vision must be wrong and possibly retarded.

How about showing a bit of respect for the opinion of others?

I have not seen one single piece of evidence for the 90% piracy and the sales loss. And I did google it, although it is usually expected that the one who made the claim provides the evidence.

The amusing thing is that you were already trying to use my friends as an example of low-level piracy. And when I told you that every single one of my computer-gaming friends pirates their software, your arguments came to a grinding halt.

Sure I was wrong about your friends, but that doesn't prove much.
None of my friends pirate, does that mean that piracy doesn't exists?
Or that we both are just providing anecdotal evidences?

If youre being shown a direct comparitive numbers between a game on two platforms, and the platform which sells 10X less is actually the games target/home platform, what else except for common sense do you need?

For that to be true you need to prove that the sales are directly comparable on the different platforms. that includes customer base, competition etc.
And defining the "home platform" for COD is a bit tricky, since COD3 was a console exclusive

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

You have a single-track mind Chris. Every thread with you is the same, you have made up you mind from post 1, and everyone who does not share your vision must be wrong and possibly retarded.

Thats funny, youre the only one really arguing me here, and the only thing youve got is your own opinion based on your inability to accept the problem. Everyone else seems to take the word of the dev if not for a fact, at least something to think about. Youre the only one spinning the age old record that "Piracy doesnt exist", thinking that the whole Europe is living in Denmark standards. Ive stated myself to be corrected numerous of times, actually. And of course Ive made up my mind, why wouldnt I? Youve made up your mind before you even read the first post! Cornered in much? The fact that youre unable to make me change my opinion comes from your weak arguments. If you want to make me share your vision, at least bring in some beer and titties!

How about showing a bit of respect for the opinion of others?

You mean respect towards others or their opinions? Say someone says "n*ggers should go to Africa", should I respect it? Should I respect the person saying that? What if someone says "Piracy does not exist.", and posts it up on the forums in a public conversation, should I respond to it or not? You dont see me arguing with minors and people who would take me too seriously, I expect grownups to see it as nothing less as an exchange of words. Dont prove yourself to be a minor in my eyes.

I have not seen one single piece of evidence for the 90% piracy and the sales loss. And I did google it, although it is usually expected that the one who made the claim provides the evidence.

I think the IWs words are evidence enough. COD4s target audience is the PC gamer, because the game is a direct decendent of COD2 (and not COD3, you should do some research on COD3 before bringing that game in). The fact that consoles are outselling it 10:1 and NOT 2:1 or 1,5:1 is a testament to the notion that something is very... very wrong. Youre the only person who either cant see it, is not really up to date with PC gaming or just argues because of arguments sake. Amusing is, you still havent even questioned the state of piracy in Asia. Maybe youre already accepting that piracy is near 100% (latest research indicates 98%) there. Seems like common sense, doesnt it? Ask Red Storm Entertainment about the units sold in Asia. Did you read my example of their weekly meetings?

"... and in Asia, one copy sold."

EDIT: Im also inclined to believe that IWs "stats" did not go for the whole software market, but instead for the gaming industry only.

Sure I was wrong about your friends, but that doesn't prove much.
None of my friends pirate, does that mean that piracy doesn't exists?
Or that we both are just providing anecdotal evidences?

Then you dont know your friends.

Or unless youre living in Finland, they have some pretty nice strict anti-piracy laws. Ive heard cops knocking on peoples doors even after a movie download. Perhaps its the same in Denmark?

For that to be true you need to prove that the sales are directly comparable on the different platforms. that includes customer base, competition etc.
And defining the "home platform" for COD is a bit tricky, since COD3 was a console exclusive

:laugh:

COD3 is like a gameboy version for BF2. Not only was it made by a different studio, it was a complete flop and failure. Basically, COD3 is something noone even knows about.

[Dairuka]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

Shazam!

Using this method, the offline mode can easily work as a demo for pirates.

I've always believed that we've always been on the same page about everything - even if our methodology and semantics are very different.