Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

[FPS[SONIC]]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

There is no discussion. Just an opinion ready to be rammed down your throat. That is why I have remained silent.

Once a statement has been made, we have to take it as fact or be attacked for simply holding a different view. There is no place to safely make a comment, so why say anything?

A wise person holds their tongue when the waggling of it will bring negative results. :salute:

[Vreki]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

I would tell you that there are far too many "lurker variables" in that type of analysis for any sort of definitive answer; you may be able to say there's a definitive correlation for one particular title, but anything beyond that would be difficult due to the overall "quality" of the software being called into question.

Thanks, that was exactly what is was trying to say. Hidden variables, and lots of them.
Statistics can be very complex, but these day the media just throws the numbers around like they were the result of a football game.
I am sure that you will appreciate this quote from one of my un-favourite Danish politicians

39% of the male population and 30% of the female never uses the library.
And when I add those numbers I get that 69% of the population never uses the library. Or am I wrong?

One of the hidden variables could be that there is an increased overlap between the games available for the consoles and the PC. In the previous console generation there seemed to be very little overlap, but that is changing. An according to wiki there are more that 30 million PS3/Xbox360 sold. I think it is safe to assume that they are bought exclusively for gaming by people with some disposable income. And they are all capable of running the latest games in full resolution without any driver issues.

Most of us here are PC-gamers, but we will have to admit that it is often a mess to get the latest games working, and if you computer is more than 6 months old you are going to be running the new games at "medium" settings.

So is it unlikely that a larger number of those who would previously have bought the game for the PC are now buying it for their consoles instead?

This kind of goes in hand with the part of the OP article with talks about the hardware/driver mess on the PC.
I too believe that FPS and some other gametype are best played on in from of the monitor with a mouse and keyboard.

But imagine that the XBOX 360 had been released in a PC-version, with a VGA/DVI port and mouse and keyboard instead of console-style controllers.
Wouldn't many of you have been happy to buy that and have a stable PC-gaming platform for the next few years, capable of running all the games at max?
I know that you can connect you XBOX that way today, but the games are still written for console-style play with autoaim and, well, certain style differences.
For that matter, the games could be released as dual mode on the same disc, where one mode is standard console and the other mode is mouse/keyboard/monitor gaming.

In that case I think I personally would be more likely to buy a XBOX than a Geforce10K. And a new power supply. And a new case with better cooling. And more memory.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

Thanks, that was exactly what is was trying to say. Hidden variables, and lots of them.
Statistics can be very complex, but these day the media just throws the numbers around like they were the result of a football game.
I am sure that you will appreciate this quote from one of my un-favourite Danish politicians

The media supports the claims of piracy being at around ~10%~40%, not ~75%~90%. The observations of piracy being significantly higher are from comparisions like COD4 sales. Anyone who has been in PC gaming long enough, knows that a title like COD4 should at least sell comparatively to its console counterpart. But if the game cant even break the 1M margin on PC, or barely break it, something is seriously screwed up. They even came out publicly, blasting their own fanbase for such a high rate of piracy.

Secondly, when people say "hidden variables", they are thinking "we cant trace every single download". This gives benefit of the doubt not to those who support the 10% theory, it gives the benefit of the doubt to those who support the 90% theory.

As for the unpopular politicians quote... I can see why hes unpopular, he obviously failed his math course... in grade 8.

I went ahead and tried to find a common hardware piece which would tell us how many gamers we have. The 8800 card and its units sold. I found some pieces of older numbers, like

2 million GeForce 8800 GTs sold, AGEIA details

and stumbled across this-

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/video/g92-part1-page1.html

217 million people play online games now.

There are 183 millions of active NVIDIA gamers.

-

Windows Vista sales reach 60M

Et cetera.

So we cant possibly conclude that the videogamers count "consoles" vs "PC" couldnt possibly be 10:1, which is what the consoles are outselling PC in COD4, are. And Ive read numbers of outselling titles on one platform compared to the other before, but in the region of 4:1 and 5:1.

When people say that piracy is a serious issue, well, it is. When people say that "its OK, there are only a few pirated games per legally sold ones" havent used a P2P network or been to a marketplace in St. Petersburg or Moscow. I remember days I could get the newest Metallica CD in Moscow before it hit the shelves in New York.

If Crytek came out with plans to rearrange their view on consoles and keeping Crysis´ next two parts (and for that matter, Far Cry 2) PC exclusive, it means that even if they did all their market research, they estimated a far better number in sales than 1+M (I believe its closer to 2 now, but thats just an estimation). And Crysis isnt that much of a resource hog as everyone says it is. I ran it on my X1600 laptop and it ran at 40-50 FPS at all MIN settings and the experience was pleasant and entertaining.

I think those people do their research well, and they are not basing their estimated sales figures on capable vid cards sold in China, Sri Lanka and Rumenia. I know wouldnt. Which means that some 16 year old kids with their Christmas present gaming PC, at your own neighbourhood, you rich capitalist pigs, is stealing while they shouldnt, or wouldnt have to!!! :laugh:

There is no discussion. Just an opinion ready to be rammed down your throat. That is why I have remained silent.

Once a statement has been made, we have to take it as fact or be attacked for simply holding a different view. There is no place to safely make a comment, so why say anything?

A wise person holds their tongue when the waggling of it will bring negative results. :salute:

:cry:

Boo hoo. This is amusing, considering that you were leaving the forums because supposedly TGN "was leaving the PC gaming". Now youre trying to be a victim of an internet argument. For a 44 year old man, rolling over and pretending to be hurt is a sight to see indeed.

[Dan2k3k4]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

Chris no need to bring SonicPixels "age" nor even bring another "topic" into this one :) That was a clear "low blow." Though SonicPixel was responding to what Webs said, tho he shouldn't have posted that either. You both shouldn't need to post like that. We're talking about Games and Piracy, not what happens if I post an "opinion" or a "fact" that ends in agruments of other "opinions" and "facts." <3

Also about the 183 million nVidia gamers, how do they know that they are "gamers" and it's not just "183 million 'decent' graphics cards sold"

Don't forget about company offices with over 1,000 PCs - all which might have a 'decent' graphics card. You won't find much gaming on those.

Also, what about "media" related companies? They'll probably need a high end graphics card to create effects for the News and things, it doesn't mean they game on the computers at all.

There's also the fact that "even though someone doesn't play a game they will still update there graphics drivers" - so they can't base the figures on driver downloads per ip.

Not every PC Gamer is interested in FPS games, nor are they interested in CoD4... so even tho there might be "180 million gamers" - the most you may reach for 1 game would probably be around 10 million, with maybe 2 million pirated (and possibly 70% of those pirated bought the game in the end) - since if the game was really THAT good, it would attract more piracy but it'll also sell more from "piracy gamers."

Again, nothing can really be "backed up and proof sealed" unless it has the evidence and figures to conclude this.

There is alot of piracy, no doubt about that. There are several ways to get a pirated game, from various street markets in a city to getting the game off a friend next door. Theres hundreds of ways on the internet, ftp links, rapidshare links, P2P programs, IRC, and even just direct MSN Chats...

Tho each one will vary in "popularity" - ftp guaranteed a fast download usually but you can't often pause the download, rapidshare links usually get posted on forums alot, P2P are only good if theres lots of people using it/download the same file, IRC is tricky for new comers, and well MSN you have to know the person and it's alot slower...

Also Vreki -> The only thing that PC is better for then consoles, is the fact that you can mod the PC games... I know it's possible to play consoles with mouse/keyboard but again not many games support those features, and if games started to allow for mouse/keyboard controls, then I think there might be an increase in console gaming.

[Vreki]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

Also Vreki -> The only thing that PC is better for then consoles, is the fact that you can mod the PC games... I know it's possible to play consoles with mouse/keyboard but again not many games support those features, and if games started to allow for mouse/keyboard controls, then I think there might be an increase in console gaming.

True, but I see no technical reason why a console with hard drive and internet connection should be unable to download and install custom mods.
I think it is more of a business decision based on the desire to keep full control of the content (and the price of the content)

[Dairuka]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

Y'all have obviously never been to QuakeCon.

They run (on the main servers which serve the entire convention mind you) DC++ servers, and people swap games, movies, music, and just about anything else you can possibly imagine. Go google Quakecon and DC++ and you're bound to find the escapades.

Seen it. Unimpressive. A bunch of pasty people playing pirated software in a cramped room. These are the hardcore pirates and/or hackers I spoke about earlier. They have no lives - and are willing to spend dozens of hours of their time just to steal software as opposed to the average pirate who is willing to spend... maybe one hour of effort at most.

Second: http://archive.gamespy.com/legacy/articles/piracy.shtm

There are statistics from the the Software Industry of America in there regarding software piracy and millions of dollars in lost revenue. I couldn't find any from the Entertainment Software Association. However, as someone highly interested in statistics, I would tell you that there are far too many "lurker variables" in that type of analysis for any sort of definitive answer; you may be able to say there's a definitive correlation for one particular title, but anything beyond that would be difficult due to the overall "quality" of the software being called into question.

I agree with you. Statistics have, and will always be iffy - and Gamespy is notorious for it's complete lack of definitive proof on anything beyond the opinions of their writers. Their opinion is on equal terms to mine and anybody else here's should any of us feel the need to start mindlessly flinging out percentiles just to feel important (Which is the only reason to bring up statistics in the first place.). Statistics really do nothing but panic potential buyers and investors, which hurts the PC industry. If you start a panic - you'll find publishers jumping ship... oh wait, thats already happening isn't it? Good job Lamespy and every other piss-poor review site that's tacked on their op/ed's about piracy. You've successfully done more harm than good yet again. For all the real information in that opinion/editorial, there was at least twice as many 'the sky is falling!' statements made... so why should we take it as being nothing more than common media sensationalism?

We should also remind the viewers of the article, that this particular opinion/editorial obviously speaks on console piracy more than PC piracy, since he constantly talks about this underground market of pirated discs being sold for profit. - That is almost primarily a console issue, simply because PC piracy is inherently free thanks to Peer 2 Peer/Torrents. Ireland, Russia and China are pretty wired places nowadays.

Anyhow... We should ignore the statistics and accept the fact that nobody can beat the pirates. It's an impossibility. They'll always reverse engineer everything you make. It's only a matter of time. Deal with it.

So the only way to really hurt them is to exclude only the most hardcore-of-hardcore from playing along in our reindeer games.

Make it so painfully frustrating that the average pirate will give up and look for other prey - or dole out the $50 needed to buy the game legit. There are many ways which have been mentioned in this thread that can contribute to upping the pirating frustrating value of a game, without frustrating the legal owners. Booby Traps aren't one of them.

[jesus]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

I've always wondered... why doesn't microsoft complain about piracy? There are so many people who use pirated copies of Windows, or Microsoft Office. What about Sony? There are so many cracked PSPs but I haven't seen Sony release a report saying piracy is killing the PSP. Why is it just game companies that have done poorly recently that complain about it? Did DICE complain about piracy when BF2 was released? what about infinity ward when CoD4 was released? And piracy is just as big of an issue on consoles. GTA 4 was available like 2 days on torrent sites before the game even came out

If the microsoft and sony reports exist, then please show them because I may have missed them

[=98=]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

I've always wondered... why doesn't microsoft complain about piracy? There are so many people who use pirated copies of Windows, or Microsoft Office.

They have done. They had meetings in Eastern Europe regarding the situation if i remember correctly. It was at this exact time that the president Romania told Bill Gates, to his face, that "pirated software and music had helped build their IT industry". Microsoft are always lodging complaints against companies who pirate their software.

But, i think they have to come to realise that you cannot tackle piracy with the end user. You must cut off the roots, the supply, and the rest will tumble. Microsoft and associates have worked with government teams and private firms to help crack down on piracy groups (i think they may have even worked with the Chinese government at one point, but i could be wrong there).

They have also started to include relatively safe tests that can prevent users updating their copies such as the WGA (Windows Genuine Advantage). Cd-Keys are cross referenced with an online database or known pirated keys and if found, the copy will be prevented from updated. While a pirate copy might work for a while, it usually ends up getting banned.

This system isn't perfect, but it's a start.

What about Sony? There are so many cracked PSPs but I haven't seen Sony release a report saying piracy is killing the PSP.

They constantly release firmware updates that have been known to brick hacked PSP's or render them to a paper weight. Again, pirates simply reverse engineer the code and get it working again, but it's a pain waiting for weeks for a hacked software update

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

Chris no need to bring SonicPixels "age" nor even bring another "topic" into this one :) That was a clear "low blow." Though SonicPixel was responding to what Webs said, tho he shouldn't have posted that either. You both shouldn't need to post like that. We're talking about Games and Piracy, not what happens if I post an "opinion" or a "fact" that ends in agruments of other "opinions" and "facts." <3

Hey, if one wants to take a subtle low blow, Im all up for taking out the sledgehammer.

Theres at least two people in *******xing.

Also about the 183 million nVidia gamers, how do they know that they are "gamers" and it's not just "183 million 'decent' graphics cards sold"

I think its safe to say that those stats concern only GPUs sold at their prime era. nVidia "gamers" with a 1998 card hardly constitutes as a "gamer" these days. But instead of trying to undermine the numbers, how about we actually try to get to the point Im trying to make- which is that theres a very strong possibility that there may be more PCs that are able to run games, than consoles. Im not saying that every counted card means theres a dedicated gamer. Im saying that there are at least 200 million PCs capable of running modern games, COD4 included. So the notion that there are 10:1 COD4 players on consoles compared to PCs, is a huge, not to mention wrong assumption. And we havent really counted ATi cards in, have we?

[Dairuka]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

You also forgot Matrox cards.

[=98=]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

You also forgot Matrox cards.

People still use them for gaming :hmm:

[Dairuka]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

People still use them for gaming :hmm:

Some guy wanted to use his to play Civilization 4.

After I finished laughing, I told him he needed to get a GPU for gaming and not graphics design.

[FPS[SONIC]]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

:cry:

Boo hoo. This is amusing, considering that you were leaving the forums because supposedly TGN "was leaving the PC gaming". Now youre trying to be a victim of an internet argument. For a 44 year old man, rolling over and pretending to be hurt is a sight to see indeed.

And this childish baiting is exactly what I speak of. As an adult, I'm not supposed to have feelings or opinions... I can't feel disappointed or hurt by things? Well, just so you know I can and I do.

But I definately don't feel any hurt from your comments Chris. You've just proven yourself to be the arrogant jerk you act like all the time here at TGN.

I now have a new addition to my ignore list. Good job :thumbsup:

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

And this childish baiting is exactly what I speak of. As an adult, I'm not supposed to have feelings or opinions... I can't feel disappointed or hurt by things? Well, just so you know I can and I do.

But I definately don't feel any hurt from your comments Chris. You've just proven yourself to be the arrogant jerk you act like all the time here at TGN.

I now have a new addition to my ignore list. Good job :thumbsup:

-You bait
-Youre being called out
-You pretend getting emotionally hurt
-You utilize the ignore feature

And now this.

:laugh: