Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

I've always believed that we've always been on the same page about everything - even if our methodology and semantics are very different.

Cultural and lingual differences. If maths is the universal language, common sense would be its lingo.

Found a nice piece of commentary under an article regarding the piracy research methods done by the industry.

Poking fun at BSA and such is easy. But then I start looking around and it gets sad.

I work for a GameDev company, doing level design. This means I should play a lot of computer games. Hell, everybody in the company should -- being in the know is their job. You know what their favourite store is, 95% market share?

The Net. And I don't mean Steam.

They develop games for a living, and they don't even have enough decency to buy a single copy and pass it around. I used to bring my private copies to work for them to borrow, but they would just use them to make copies of their own.

Just a few days ago one of designers was asked to play Call of Duty 4 specifically, because the game we're working on is supposed to maintain similar tone. He's been essentially asked to spend thirty bucks on self-improvement. I know he can afford it because I can and he makes more than I do.
"Nah, waste of money", is what he said.

It's the third company I work for and it has always been like this. Buy a game? What for?

[Dairuka]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

Chris, you've just explained why I believe Stardock (And it's development studios), Valve (And it's development studios), Kaos Studios and Splash Damage are going to be the stars of the future. Each is comprised of hardcore gamers and former-moders who just happen to be programmers now.

As time goes on, as new engines are made - as they each get some experience of working under the constraints and strains of their profession, we can expect more masterpieces to be churned out, with less issues and more innovation.

With the exception of Valve (Stardock to a point), each are relatively new, or quite-literally brand new to the game development scene.

[Vreki]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

Youre the only one spinning the age old record that "Piracy doesnt exist", thinking that the whole Europe is living in Denmark standards.

What if someone says "Piracy does not exist.", and posts it up on the forums in a public conversation, should I respond to it or not?

I am not claiming that there is no piracy problem, but it is also obvious that some publisher would rather blame piracy than admitting that they are making crap.

Thats what I mean about not respecting others opinion, I never said what you claim.

I think the IWs words are evidence enough. COD4s target audience is the PC gamer, because the game is a direct decendent of COD2 (and not COD3, you should do some research on COD3 before bringing that game in). The fact that consoles are outselling it 10:1 and NOT 2:1 or 1,5:1 is a testament to the notion that something is very... very wrong. Youre the only person who either cant see it, is not really up to date with PC gaming or just argues because of arguments sake.

IWs word is not evidence of anything but the sales of their game. And I do not accept the claim that the COD4 sales on PC should automatically match those of the consoles. How can they claim how many units they should have sold? What game are they supposed to draw people from?
looking at game-monitor it would appear that the number of people currently playing COD2/BF2/BF2142 just about matches the number of people playing COD4. So if we can agree those are the major games in the genre, then COD4 is already sitting on 50% of the market, what do they expect?
Of course there appear to be an obscene amount of people playing Counterstrike, but they don't appear willing to move on.

Amusing is, you still havent even questioned the state of piracy in Asia. Maybe youre already accepting that piracy is near 100% (latest research indicates 98%) there. Seems like common sense, doesnt it? Ask Red Storm Entertainment about the units sold in Asia. Did you read my example of their weekly meetings?

Why would I?. It is well known that Asia is a heaven for all kinds of copyright violations, no sense in arguing that.

Then you dont know your friends.

Or unless youre living in Finland, they have some pretty nice strict anti-piracy laws. Ive heard cops knocking on peoples doors even after a movie download. Perhaps its the same in Denmark?

The laws are there, but they have mostly been used against music/movie pirates, not software pirates.
Because the record industry has the strongest lobby.

And yes, there might very well be a few pirates that I am unaware of among my friends.

[TheEn|gma]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

That article is something that should be compulsory to read for anyone playing games. Interesting read, I would write more but out of fear of getting into arguments that I just have the time for I won't bother.

[Dan2k3k4]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

There are Cracked CoD4 servers designed to allow pirates to play online... I didn't look into it much but PunkBuster are now banning these servers. However I'm sure if you just left PunkBuster off for the cracked servers then they wouldn't be able to shut you down...

CoD4 - Although the CoD series started as a PC game, but since CoD3 it's been more aimed towards console gamers. The perk system, ranks and small stock maps are more designed for console 8v8 battles. The unlocks you get from enough intel too. Not to mention "arcade" mode. Not that I have anything against those, but a console gamer would find those more appealing then a PC gamer who prefers to play a solid Story mode and then contine online with a clan, not having to worry about getting intel or picking the right perk for the right gametype/server. Though, that's just my opinion.

The post about "other game developers copying other games" - well you wouldn't want to support a company competiting with you for the next title? I know this is farfetched, but it's the only 'technical' reason why they could pirate. Also many people would rather spend/save money for something they are interested in. If they only need to play the single player of a game, and it's so easy to get ahold of the game via piracy. Then surely thinking "oh, one pirated game won't hurt the company, they've already sold millions in the first month of release" they'd rather pirate the game then spend the money. If you're not interested in a Boat Cruise, but were told to take one around the Bahamas, and you had to pay out of your own money. You'd be thinking "damn Boss, why didn't he pay the ****" - Whereas if there was an option to sneak onboard of the cruise, with no risk of being caught whilst you're on... you'd be stupid to not do it.

Many PC Gamers have been switching to console games, simply because it's cheaper in the long run, you just have to open the disk tray and put the game in. No actual long installation process, no cd keys required. Also the game is guaranteed (almost - unless you mod the console) to work on your console, whereas with PC games theres always the "Do I need to upgrade my: Graphics, Mobo, Harddrive, Sound, OS" etc. and then there is the trouble of making sure you have the right driver/updated drivers.

I "think" that for kids/teenagers - it's easier for them to buy a console since they can invite there friends round and play it together. It's also alot cheaper, and alot of people have TVs bigger then there monitors, they also have a decent sound setup. So it's more fun to play the same game on a console then a PC.
I "think" that for older gamers - it's easier to play consoles since they could be too busy with Work, Parenting and other things. They can simply plug in the console, and put in the disk then play it at will when they have spare time, no need to worry about 'latest patch' or 'cd keys.'

I think with CoD4 selling soo much on consoles, suggests that there is a huge interest in that genre amongst gamers, modern warfare FPS. It doesn't suggest that it is a console game because it's sold more on console then PC either. Nor does it back up piracy on PC. For PC, I'm sure many average gamers don't want to spend 100's of dollars/pounds to upgrade there system to play one game, when they have a console lying there which also supports the game. They'd simply purchase the console game for 30-50 dollars/pounds. Saving them alot of money.

There is a lot of piracy and there does need to be more crackdowns on preventing it. If game developers were able to release more demos, this may help prevent piracy. As long as the demos use the same specs as the full game, and as long as they provide a mission or two, enough to notice most features of the game, and enough to get a feel of how the story could play out. Having multiplayer in a demo tends to help, as it allows players to see whether they should buy the game for the long run. Since once you'd completed a game you're pretty much done with it, unless it has a free roam option, like GTA. Good MP = Good replayability, and I know that for some games I've played even after completing single player, I'd go back and try a few missions because I'd be playing online and notice some things from SP. I probably wouldn't have played those missions if it wasn't for playing online.

[Dairuka]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

There are Cracked CoD4 servers designed to allow pirates to play online... I didn't look into it much but PunkBuster are now banning these servers. However I'm sure if you just left PunkBuster off for the cracked servers then they wouldn't be able to shut you down...

A great multi-player game should be accompanied with a steam-like GUID/System ID check.

I'm still waiting for people to crack Team Fortress 2.

The best they've come up with are the fake Crack/******s which get banned the instant you join a server. Note that getting banned for using a Crack/****** means you're banned from Steam.

Getting banned from Steam means that you won't be able to join Steam servers.

That means that even if you crack the game again with a different program, you'd have to spoof your Hardware just to try again.

That means that the average casual "I just don't wanna pay for the game right now" pirate will give up. You'd have to be a hardcore pirate to keep up that frustration... and hardcore pirates wouldn't have bought the game in the first place anyways.

Note: Stardock's Ironclad Online has yet to be cracked - Which means that the Pirated version of Sins of a Solar Empire can only play multi-player through LAN. That means no ladder matches, no clan matches, no ranking system, no tournaments.

It's not a perfect system yet - but it does enough to discourage casual pirates looking for a freebie or a demo. Hardcore pirates don't and shouldn't ever matter.

[Eagle101]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

(I must say this thread is quite informative and adding to that, it's quite a good read.)

[MrChris_CJ]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

There are Cracked CoD4 servers designed to allow pirates to play online... I didn't look into it much but PunkBuster are now banning these servers. However I'm sure if you just left PunkBuster off for the cracked servers then they wouldn't be able to shut you down...

CoD4 - Although the CoD series started as a PC game, but since CoD3 it's been more aimed towards console gamers. The perk system, ranks and small stock maps are more designed for console 8v8 battles. The unlocks you get from enough intel too. Not to mention "arcade" mode. Not that I have anything against those, but a console gamer would find those more appealing then a PC gamer who prefers to play a solid Story mode and then contine online with a clan, not having to worry about getting intel or picking the right perk for the right gametype/server. Though, that's just my opinion.

The post about "other game developers copying other games" - well you wouldn't want to support a company competiting with you for the next title? I know this is farfetched, but it's the only 'technical' reason why they could pirate. Also many people would rather spend/save money for something they are interested in. If they only need to play the single player of a game, and it's so easy to get ahold of the game via piracy. Then surely thinking "oh, one pirated game won't hurt the company, they've already sold millions in the first month of release" they'd rather pirate the game then spend the money. If you're not interested in a Boat Cruise, but were told to take one around the Bahamas, and you had to pay out of your own money. You'd be thinking "damn Boss, why didn't he pay the ****" - Whereas if there was an option to sneak onboard of the cruise, with no risk of being caught whilst you're on... you'd be stupid to not do it.

Many PC Gamers have been switching to console games, simply because it's cheaper in the long run, you just have to open the disk tray and put the game in. No actual long installation process, no cd keys required. Also the game is guaranteed (almost - unless you mod the console) to work on your console, whereas with PC games theres always the "Do I need to upgrade my: Graphics, Mobo, Harddrive, Sound, OS" etc. and then there is the trouble of making sure you have the right driver/updated drivers.

I "think" that for kids/teenagers - it's easier for them to buy a console since they can invite there friends round and play it together. It's also alot cheaper, and alot of people have TVs bigger then there monitors, they also have a decent sound setup. So it's more fun to play the same game on a console then a PC.
I "think" that for older gamers - it's easier to play consoles since they could be too busy with Work, Parenting and other things. They can simply plug in the console, and put in the disk then play it at will when they have spare time, no need to worry about 'latest patch' or 'cd keys.'

I think with CoD4 selling soo much on consoles, suggests that there is a huge interest in that genre amongst gamers, modern warfare FPS. It doesn't suggest that it is a console game because it's sold more on console then PC either. Nor does it back up piracy on PC. For PC, I'm sure many average gamers don't want to spend 100's of dollars/pounds to upgrade there system to play one game, when they have a console lying there which also supports the game. They'd simply purchase the console game for 30-50 dollars/pounds. Saving them alot of money.

There is a lot of piracy and there does need to be more crackdowns on preventing it. If game developers were able to release more demos, this may help prevent piracy. As long as the demos use the same specs as the full game, and as long as they provide a mission or two, enough to notice most features of the game, and enough to get a feel of how the story could play out. Having multiplayer in a demo tends to help, as it allows players to see whether they should buy the game for the long run. Since once you'd completed a game you're pretty much done with it, unless it has a free roam option, like GTA. Good MP = Good replayability, and I know that for some games I've played even after completing single player, I'd go back and try a few missions because I'd be playing online and notice some things from SP. I probably wouldn't have played those missions if it wasn't for playing online.

I would argue however that a lot of PC Gamers, hardcore ones at least and veterans will never switch to a console

the reasons many people have PCs is because they dont want to use a console and they want something multifunctional, customiseable and more powerful

The problem with PCs isnt so much as hardware issues etc its knowledge, for most people who know how to use pcs there are no problems. But yes teenagers or casual people will most likely buy consoles because yes they are casual machines, PCs require the know how to not only buy the right equipment so they dont need to upgrade for a while but also how to use it

There are many PC gamers out there, me included that would rather eat dirt than play and use a console, some devs seem to have a hard time figuring this out I think...

[Eagle101]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

I would argue however that a lot of PC Gamers, hardcore ones at least and veterans will never switch to a console

the reasons many people have PCs is because they dont want to use a console and they want something multifunctional, customiseable and more powerful

The problem with PCs isnt so much as hardware issues etc its knowledge, for most people who know how to use pcs there are no problems. But yes teenagers or casual people will most likely buy consoles because yes they are casual machines, PCs require the know how to not only buy the right equipment so they dont need to upgrade for a while but also how to use it

There are many PC gamers out there, me included that would rather eat dirt than play and use a console, some devs seem to have a hard time figuring this out I think...

QFT, i have a console although most of my time is on the PC, i support you in your saying.

[=)BiT(= Evant3k]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

I rather eat dirt then use a console to play FPS games it's really sad that the console FPS model became more successful, even tho the controller is so user unfriendly and not precise compared to the classic keyboard + mouse. Thats why I rather wait the extra 3 or 4 months for GTA4 to come out on PC rather then getting the console to play one game which would be a total waste of money.

I want to see a online gaming bridge between consoles and PC's, one network where all can play with each other regardless of the machine they are using. Wouldn't that be great to sit on your PC and play with you XBox and PS3 buddies online? I still wonder why is it not possible to do... Or have a add on to your PC like a special GPU that would fit in one of the PCI-e slots with a PS3 bios that would make your blu-ray drive to be able to play PS3 games on your PC.

[Dan2k3k4]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

Why would Microsoft let Sony onto there network? Therefore PC + PS3 = No go, unless the companys merged. PC + 360 = Possible and a couple upcoming games have this ability, tho I don't follow 360 stuff so I can't tell you which games.

[Twlight]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

T
Many PC Gamers have been switching to console games, simply because it's cheaper in the long run, you just have to open the disk tray and put the game in. No actual long installation process, no cd keys required. Also the game is guaranteed (almost - unless you mod the console) to work on your console, whereas with PC games theres always the "Do I need to upgrade my: Graphics, Mobo, Harddrive, Sound, OS" etc. and then there is the trouble of making sure you have the right driver/updated drivers.

Some PS3 games do require a slight install of game files that may speed up load times. They are usually under five (5) minutes if not faster, though I remember waiting twenty (20) minutes for Devil May Cry 4 to install and only taking a few seconds of the load time compared to the Xbox 360 version.

[MrChris_CJ]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

The consoles become more like PCs

Ban consoles and force people onto pcs! its the only way we can save ourselves!

[sava700]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

The consoles become more like PCs

Your pretty much 100% correct...

PC Gaming > Consoles

[Webs961]

Re: Every´PC gamer and console basher needs to have a quick read on this.

Y'all have obviously never been to QuakeCon.

They run (on the main servers which serve the entire convention mind you) DC++ servers, and people swap games, movies, music, and just about anything else you can possibly imagine. Go google Quakecon and DC++ and you're bound to find the escapades.

Second: http://archive.gamespy.com/legacy/articles/piracy.shtm

There are statistics from the the Software Industry of America in there regarding software piracy and millions of dollars in lost revenue. I couldn't find any from the Entertainment Software Association. However, as someone highly interested in statistics, I would tell you that there are far too many "lurker variables" in that type of analysis for any sort of definitive answer; you may be able to say there's a definitive correlation for one particular title, but anything beyond that would be difficult due to the overall "quality" of the software being called into question.


Second, to intervene in the Vreki and Redfield discussion. Chris, chill out. Vreki wasn't backpedaling; I failed to see definitive proof in your earlier statements as well when you began to condemn Vreki. Neither could Vreki disprove you. Part of the reason no one else responded or pointed that fact out to you was because the majority of people here most likely feel like that's not their discussion in which to intervene. Your condemnation was very direct and pointed at Vreki, and the majority of the users here feel no need to become involved in the debate, at least at that level.