shotgun range poll.

[Roger Smith]

i can understand that and it makes a lot of sense. game play is the most important factor in my opinion and thats where i am coming from. i am not asking for the shotgun to be a brutal killing machine at all ranges, id just like it to perform properly in its role (cqc) and right now, across a room may be too far. all i am asking is for the buck to not disappear, and to have a massive spread/damage just a little farther than as is. its not a huge change, just enough for the weapon to come out from the corners and actually enter rooms.

[Salad Snake]

Psst, dont tell him that. He may think that its the best shotgunner and base his opinion on that.

I don't know who you're directing that toward, but I think you'll agree with me that person wouldn't have gotten past the second enemy in that video nowadays.

[Keyelite]

Even though the word probably gets thrown around too much, "balance" is most likely the reason for the way shotties are set up in COD4. Again, the shotties (trench gun) was a HUGE complaint in COD2, due to the similar small-ish map sizes, and the power/range the weapons had. For the purposes of a multi-player game, I think they probably had to be nerfed a fair bit.

IW isn't perfect by any means, but I do think they put a lot of time and thought to weapon balance. Even so, there was the early COD4 example of the sniper rifles...they weren't "broken" per se, as lots of users figured out how to use them, but they operated differently than in the past and there were enough complaints that IW changed them. I think the COD2 shottie complaints were probably a big reason for the current COD4 shotgun settings.

yep

every weapon should have a purpose in any game mode.

Well, yes to a certain extent. Eventually it will come down to which weapon can do better in certain modes or scenarios.

I just don't understand, why you would want to use a shotgun so much in hardcore mode?

[Roger Smith]

because i play hardcore mode, and do not play softcore. i want to be able to use any weapon in any mode. i honestly do not understand how someone wouldnt want weapons to be balanced and fair in any mode.

[Kayback]

Also, try not zooming in. The point of a shotgun in real life is so you DON'T have to bring it to eye level all the time. Same concept applies in COD4

.

I get shouted at for using IRl examples and then you spout this garbage? This is why shotguns are so useless in games, because people don't understand how they are meant to be used IRL in the first place.

You have obviously never used a shotgun before IRL otherwise you'd know what you said is garbage. It's like saying the M60 and M249's should be fired from the hip as well. That may be how it's done in the movies but not IRL.

Shotguns may have simple sights on them, but many serious shotguns are being built with ghost ring or rifle sights on them. Hell look at the sights in that "clip". It's got ghost rings for a reason. To allow youto AIM properly.

Point shooting only works at extreme close ranges, and even then is discouraged by anyone who knows anything about firearms. Shotgun spread, IRL isn't enough to allow hip firing. It sticks too close together. People imagine a room splattered with shot when it will still be in a group the size of a dinner plate at 30 meters. While this does allow a bit more "margin for error" than a single projectile, it's better to aim your shot and make sure it's launched in the right direction in the first place.


As for your question "why do I want to use a shotgun in Hardscore so much" I offer this reply, Why not?

It's part of the game. Both Hardcore and the Shotguns are part of the game, and I'd like to play with both settings. Not only that, I like shotguns. Hell there is a reason I have a couple of hundred 12 guage rounds in my safe and why I'm building a 3-gun match shotgun.

I'd like to be able to play with them in the virtual world as well.

In harcore all the weapons have a more believeable effect on a person. In Softcore they can accept 3/4 a mag of 5.56mm in somesituations. In HC 3 to the chest and they are done. Single 7.62mm hits, single brainbox hits. All the other weapons seem to be done well in hardcore and softcore, except shotguns. They are simply outclassed hands down in Hardcore (and softcore). The best shotgun in HC is a M14. Like I said earlier, highers rof, bigger mag, longer ranges and still single hit to kills. Hell with Deep Impact you can hit multiple targets as well.

This isn't because the M14 is overpowered, it's a pretty accruate represantation. The Shotgun is overly weak. It fire's too slow, and it lacks range. Allow a more believeable drop off of damage, tighten the shot up a bit, and allow it to shoot faster (I'll admit double tap helps, but the animation is still stupid). The only thing we pretty much all want is a slkightly better thought out damage drop off. Stop vapourising the shot. Let it travel a little more, and nerf the damage if you must. Stop the "istagib here, party craker here" feature on it.

KBK

[Chris_Redfield]

I don't know who you're directing that toward, but I think you'll agree with me that person wouldn't have gotten past the second enemy in that video nowadays.

Right, and what has this anything to do with the argument at hand? Its a video piece showing shotguns effective range and to an extent, effective use. If you want to say that "the guy is a noob lulz" then you can keep the comment to yourself.

KBK, Hardcore is a sidetrack of COD4, weapon balance in COD4 works in regular play, not HC. Ive given you all the advice you can have. Position and skill, packed with experience. Shotguns are a specialized weapons, just like snipers. Its the proper use, that makes the difference between a 1:1 KDR sniper and 10:1 KDR sniper. Same with shotguns.

You cant use it? Fine. We can, so this means the shotguns arent (that) broken.

[Kayback]

And I've thanked you for that advice, and I'm trying to use it.

The shotgus in the game aren't shotguns. They are a game designers pathetic attempt at making something in a game. They shouldn't carry the name shotguns. They should be called instagib contact range weapons. The rest of the "weapons" in the game carry their real world atributes across quite well. The shotgun doesn't. Hell even in common media types at these ranges people would be picked up and thrown through plate glass windows. And that's just as wrong.

Explain how this is reprisentative.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyQ86eug13c

True i'm shooting hot water cylinders and not people, next time I have some mates online (it's 9 am here) I'll do the same test,but with some targets.

Where did the buckshot go?

I've agree that I probably can't use them, in the same way I can't snap shoot well enough to be a sniper. There is a reason my favourite kit is a UAV jammer, Dead silence and a supressed Skorpion. I like to be close to my targets so they are easy to hit, but I don't like them knowing I'm there. This is one reason I'd like to use a shotgun. What was that nois<BLAM!>. However even in Softcore, even with a supressed SMG, I stand a better chance of getting there alive than I do with a shotgun. With the shotguns it's more like <sneak> <sneak> <sneak> <sneak> see guy at other doorway <BLAM>out of range <BLAM>out of range <DEAD> cos he had an MP5.

The shotguns and the SMG's should have the same sort of chance against eachother. That's because they are meant to fil lthe same role in IRL and in the game. Close quaters, room clearing, in your face combat. The SMG get's it's kills by trading fire power for controlability and rate of fire. The Shotgun goes to the other extreme and sacrifices rate of fire and in some cases range for huge firepower. This is something they get pretty right in COD4. The only problem is they don't do the "range" thing very well in my opinion.

And that's all it is. My opinion. That's what this topic was about. I honestly think the shotguns could do with a boost in range. And not even a big one.

[Salad Snake]

Stop vapourising the shot. Let it travel a little more, and nerf the damage if you must. Stop the "istagib here, party craker here" feature on it.

That's all I would want. I don't care if it does a single hp dmg, but let it do that dmg.

Well, maybe that's not completely true. I could do with a slight range-to-dmg increase, so that in an alleyway fight at about, say, 3/4 of a tennis court distance, the shotgun would still stand a chance against an SMG.

As it is, you are doing 0 dmg at that range. Something low like 30 (for the pump, little less for the auto) would be nice. That's 4, maybe three shots if you're lucky and he ate some shrapnel beforehand.

Edit: In fact the auto could keep it's current range, since it shoots so fast. But (and this is just my opinion), the pump could definitely use some range buffing and a tighter spread.

Right, and what has this anything to do with the argument at hand? Its a video piece showing shotguns effective range and to an extent, effective use. If you want to say that "the guy is a noob lulz" then you can keep the comment to yourself.

KBK, Hardcore is a sidetrack of COD4, weapon balance in COD4 works in regular play, not HC. Ive given you all the advice you can have. Position and skill, packed with experience. Shotguns are a specialized weapons, just like snipers. Its the proper use, that makes the difference between a 1:1 KDR sniper and 10:1 KDR sniper. Same with shotguns.

You cant use it? Fine. We can, so this means the shotguns arent (that) broken.

I never called that person in a video noob. I'm just saying if he tried those sorta stunts on any pub server, now, at this very instance, he would fail 49/50 times. Because an SMG would clearly have an advantage in most of those encounters.

I understand that hardcore is not balenced at all, that's why I don't play it too often. But the shotgun's performance in soft could definitely use an improvement.

Part of the problem is that SMG's and shotguns both occupy the close combat niche, though of course with totally different philosophies.

And as for that last paragraph, don't you think that's just calling people who want a better shotgun "noobs"?

Btw, I do believe this is one of the first times we've taken opposite sides in a debate Redfield.

[Chris_Redfield]

And I've thanked you for that advice, and I'm trying to use it.

Dont need to thank me, just try to utilize the tips and remember two main guidelines- good aim and better location.

The shotgus in the game aren't shotguns. They are a game designers pathetic attempt at making something in a game. They shouldn't carry the name shotguns.

So, the Assault Rifles arent Assault Rifles? SMGs arent SMGs? Amusingly, the only "real" class that actually does what their real life counterpart does, are sniper rifles. Even pistols arent pistols.

They should be called instagib contact range weapons.

And thats exactly what they are.

The rest of the "weapons" in the game carry their real world atributes across quite well.

I cant believe you can call yourself knowledgeable in real life weaponry after this statement. Im sure an assault rifle loses all of its power after 2000 inch distance? Inches... And Scorp surely loses 60% of its power in just 200 inches? Surely... Wait, whats that? "Gameplay balance"? Well, here you go!

Explain how this is reprisentative.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyQ86eug13c[/media]

"Close contact instagib weapons". Past that range, you should be shooting with an SMG, or an AR.

Where did the buckshot go?

Wait, is someone forgetting that its A GAME?
However even in Softcore, even with a supressed SMG, I stand a better chance of getting there alive than I do with a shotgun. With the shotguns it's more like <sneak> <sneak> <sneak> <sneak> see guy at other doorway <BLAM>out of range <BLAM>out of range <DEAD> cos he had an MP5.

And heres the fundamental difference and flaw in your POV. You dont "just pick" a shotgun and go fragging. Its not an all around weapons class like SMG/ARs are. No. Not. Forget about it. No.

The shotguns and the SMG's should have the same sort of chance against eachother. That's because they are meant to fil lthe same role in IRL and in the game.

No. Wrong.

IRL =/= COD4

Reference from RL, not factual base.

The Shotgun goes to the other extreme and sacrifices rate of fire and in some cases range for huge firepower. This is something they get pretty right in COD4. The only problem is they don't do the "range" thing very well in my opinion.

Thats your own problem. Shotguns have an immense power, and a potential to one shot kill any target. One shot kills are balanced out. And they are balanced out well. Hence ARs and SMGs can be used anywhere, but not shotties.

[iQue]

I too, would like a little extra range for the shotguns. Not so I can wtfpwn with it but so that my shot doesn't just disappear. I don't care if the damage is crap, but it should at least hit.

But, the shotguns does absolutely not have to be buffed up in any way. What people are underestimating is the power of picking up weapons. Run into a few enemies in CQC, take them down without a problem with your trusty shotgun, switch your pistol with one of their AR's and you're ready for maximum ownage. Shotgun for close quarters and an AR/SMG/LMG for those longer ranges. It's silly how effective it really is.

Just a reminder

/thread

[Chris_Redfield]

Im always dropping my pistol for the Benelli if I see it, no matter which map. I dont like Overkill perk as it messes up my orientation (I need to know which style I play), but once Im in the flow, I dont mind picking up stuff.

[Kayback]

I cant believe you can call yourself knowledgeable in real life weaponry after this statement. Im sure an assault rifle loses all of its power after 2000 inch distance? Inches... And Scorp surely loses 60% of its power in just 200 inches? Surely... Wait, whats that? "Gameplay balance"? Well, here you go!

It's not my fault they made the maps so damn small so the developers tweaked the weapons. Speak to the level designers.

As it is ALL the other weapons work similar to how they do IRL. 40mm grenades need to travel to arm,they are relative low velocity, they have looping trajectories, SMG's are controlable on auto but lack punch, AR's are the jack of all trades, battle rifles kick like mules but hit like the Hammer of Thor, they have natural penetration, grenades can be primed, pistols are rapid fire close in weapons....basically all the things they can do IRL, they can do in the game.

Shotguns have minimal reference to what they can do IRL.

Incidently, you're pretty much screwed if you are using your Skorpion outdoors IRL anyway. The stock of the weapon and it's crappy sights, coupled to the 9mm Mak round or worse, the .32ACP round means it's a short ranged weapon. You can shoot 50m with it, but you can do thatwith a 1911 as well. 200" is obviously a game balance issue, but it doesn't lose 100% of it's power like a shotgun. Having used one before I can say you're probably better off with a weapon like the Beretta 93R with stock, the VP-70 or the Glock 18 with a stock.

This is why i say the shotguns in the game shouldn't be called shotguns.I conceeded they are a gameplay balance, that doesn't stop them being TOTALLY USELESS at a range IRL the WAD would still be dangerous. giving them a slightly longer range means they would still be able out touch someone the other side of a room. It won't hurt them much, but it does mean you can inflict damage, giving you a chance.

The other weapons all do bring what they are noted for into the game, meaning it's reasonable to call them by their names. The Shotguns are more like Tazers. Fixed range projectiles.

I honestly don't see why you claim the shotgun and the SMG's aren't in the same class and insist putting the SMG's in the AR's all round class. Lookit the ranges. The SMG's are obviously close in weapons. The shotgun is as well.

I'm NOT saying I should be 1337 uber Pwner with the shotgun. I'm saying it would be nice for a change to play a game where they don't screw over the shotgun totally.

The "balance" they have in COD 4 with the shotgun is make it Godly at 9 meters 98 centimeters. At 10 meters 1 centimeter it is like you didn't even fire. It's not balancing out the one shot kill, it is making it pointless to shoot anything more than 10 steps away. Would it seriously change the shotgun if it did likes it does, for example 100% damage at 10 meters, 95 at 11, 90 at 12, 80 at 13, 70 at 15, 60/16, 50/17. 40/18. 30/19, 20/20, 10/21meters.

For example you'd still not get the insta gib, you'd still have the low capacity and the slow ROF. At least if you got suprised on the way to a choke point, you'd be able to discourage someone by actually hitting them with the shot.

Kill them? No.

Hit them? well if you can aim well enough.

A shotgun is not a scatter gun. Real world reference? Well when we have real world things like SAS, Marines, M4, G3, M14, 1911, USP, Specnaz and the like, why the hell NOT use a real world reference. No one can explain how the shot gets WIDER if you actually aim the shotguns.

Except for some dumb statement about "firing without aiming IRL".

Again, that's the flaw with people who don't know what they doing making games about guns, and giving them real world names. Nothing wrong with UT's Flak Cannon.....

KBK

[Chris_Redfield]

Again, that's the flaw with people who don't know what they doing making games about guns, and giving them real world names. Nothing wrong with UT's Flak Cannon.....

No. The people might know how a gun operates. Its your inability to understand how guns work in games. Here you proposed a 50% damage reduction at 17 metres. Thats a potential 2 shot kill a significant range. Before you havent played with people who have perfected the art to the cross of the T, you will never understand how dangerous that change might be. Amusing, but people with experience talk A and people without talk completely differently. So whom should you put your trust in?

And NO. All other weapons DONT work the same way their real life counterparts do. Were talking about a massive loss in projectile enegery over ranges of a couple of metres. You can explain that and you conveniently ignore this. The names and appearances of guns are the only thing taken from IRL. Their functionality is entirely built up on gameplay balance. Accept it.

I can understand you want to enjoy a boomstick, and cant do so because its hard. I dont use a sniper rifle because its too hard. But the second you change a shotty to something more useful at universal ranges, than an SMG, the servers will be flooded with them, and there are more people with better aim than you are. Would you love to play instagib games where you stand 0 chance? Say YES and I will call you a liar.

Every newbie proposes a change of buffing or nerfing something without the slightest regard on what could happen if the tables were turned.

No offense, but you dont have a clue. Coming up with the almost, nigh perfect weapon balance in COD4 is a miracle in the gaming world. The bottomline is, every weapon suits for a specific task, specific map. You think all SMGs are great at all situations? No. Hence Scorp only being good at 2-3 maps. The way it works is, you have Vacant, and out of all SMGs you pick scorp, because it suits Vacant the most. If you have Overgrown, you pick the most accurate SMG with the most stopping power for its accuracy.

Transfer this to shotguns. If the distance isnt favouring it, you dont pick it. You dont pick it, thats that simple.

[Kayback]

And NO. All other weapons DONT work the same way their real life counterparts do. Were talking about a massive loss in projectile enegery over ranges of a couple of metres. You can explain that and you conveniently ignore this. The names and appearances of guns are the only thing taken from IRL. Their functionality is entirely built up on gameplay balance. Accept it.

Their functionality does reflect their IRL roles. I don't see how you can't agree on this.

For example. The M14. In game, it's a hard hitting, hard recoiling, semi auto weapon with 20 rounds in the mag. IRL, suprisingly, it is a hard hitting, hard recoiling weapon, with 20 rounds in the mag.

The M4? In game it's a softer recoiling, medium damage 30 round gun. IRL? It's a 5.56mm that shoots wonderfully on full auto, it holds 30 rounds, and the 5.56mm is up for debate, still, on it's damage. Personally I think in the ranges you get in COD 4, the 5.56mm doesn't do enough damage.

People think of a Desert Eagle. In real life it's a low capacity, large damage weapon. What is it in the game? Wow. A low capacity, large damage weapon.

The previously named weapons fit the same role in the game as they do IRL. They sacrifice hitting power for full auto controlability. The AR's and SMG's work better at spray and pray than the Battle Rifles. That's all true to form.

The Shotguns? Irl they are fast, efficient, low capacity, high damage weapons with limited spread and a semi short range. What are they in the game? Tazers.

The other weapons can all shoot across a map. The shotgun is the only one which can't. I accept that. It's pretty true to form as well. The thing is it drops to nothing waaaay too close to the shooter.

Would I love to play a game where I would suffer instagib, and have no chance? Well obviously not. However I do play HC, where it is pretty much instagib for any of the 7.62mm weapons, the 40mm's and the .50's do already. But somehow I have a change against those.

Hell in UT with the instagib rifles, I also had a chance when I used to play that.

Would I love to play a game where the shotguns are represented in a more faithful manner, even if it meant an increase in the enemy's efficiency as well? Why not?

Anywya, I'll stop using them. And go back to pistols.

KBK

[sogek1ng]

Wow, everyone is still talking about my poor shotgun. I would be really sad if they changed anything with any of the two shotguns. They are perfect the way they are. If anything the W1200 should have maybe a bit more range, but other then that, it's all good. If they changed them to be really good, it would just be something else you would see everyone else use. I think my kit is perfect for the shotgun. I use my fun kit all the time, cause I can use it in any stage.

You almost never see a shotgun user, I like it that way too. I only tend to see one, after someone gets owned and is like omg, that's it time for the shotty.Then they get shot and knifed, and are like omg hacks. I really like games with balance, and this game is almost perfect when it comes to that.

I will say one thing, the idea about a small hitbox from a little further would be ok, but the damage should be really low. So you can't kill someone unless you used 4 shots or so.

But this is one reason why they should not touch the shotty, in making it better.


http://files.filefront.com/sogepwnsB.../fileinfo.html part A

http://files.filefront.com/sogepwnsB.../fileinfo.html part B