Making martyrdom a little more fairer.

[imported_Whiskey]

Snipers and gunners setting up ambush positions have been around all along in FPS gaming. You can plan around it and take a different route, or even carefully out-shoot the enemy. Martyrdom is a different sort of situation IMO...you can do everything "right" and win a combat encounter, but still die from it because of the short fuse and large blast radius, combined with how some maps are laid out, or have to run away and wait.

When you face another person, you have the opportunity to out-think or out-skill them. With this thing, you can be correct in your tactics, someone crosses your path randomly, you can even kill them, but depending on your position and layout of the room/area, you may not be able to escape.

My basic point is still this: if it's meant to be an anti-teabagging measure (which IW stated originally), the blast radius doesn't need to be as large. If it's meant to be a suicide tactic (which actually seems to be a better "fit" to this game), then the fuse doesn't need to be shorter than normal. The issue for many people is the combination of the two: large blast + short fuse. If that's how IW truly meant it, fine...but it seems to go against what we were led to believe the purpose of it was.

[FPS[SONIC]]

All things evolve (change) under stress. I'm sure that IW's plans morphed more than a few times.

The argument about Shoot > Advance is not militarily sound. Your forgot the most important real life step: Clear the Objective.

If you fire on enemies in the objective area, the very next step is to clear the area of any lingering threats. That is very, very important and will get your guys killed otherwise. That doesn't mean, "Run over to the tango corpse and stand over it." :dead:

If they reduced the blast radius and/or lengthened the fuse, I'd be fine with that. My point is that I don't believe either are necessary.

If someone choose's martyrdom over other very valuable perks that's a win for my team.

Martyrdom can be avoided to an extent by not placing yourself in harm's way. Deal with the enemy at a distance when you can (use the "S" key to advance to the rear...).

Martrydom can simulate the chaos of real combat. You never know what's going to happen in combat and even the bravest are filled with fear of the unknown. This annoying little perk brings that "unknown" into the game. Everyone hates it and fears dying to a martyr's nade -- even if just a little.

I'd rather have about a half dozen other changes to the game rather than have IW spend their time on Martyrdom. "Fix the server browser first" needs to be our new mantra!

[TrudgiN]

All things evolve (change) under stress. I'm sure that IW's plans morphed more than a few times.

The argument about Shoot > Advance is not militarily sound. Your forgot the most important real life step: Clear the Objective.

If you fire on enemies in the objective area, the very next step is to clear the area of any lingering threats. That is very, very important and will get your guys killed otherwise. That doesn't mean, "Run over to the tango corpse and stand over it." :dead:

If they reduced the blast radius and/or lengthened the fuse, I'd be fine with that. My point is that I don't believe either are necessary.

If someone choose's martyrdom over other very valuable perks that's a win for my team.

Martyrdom can be avoided to an extent by not placing yourself in harm's way. Deal with the enemy at a distance when you can (use the "S" key to advance to the rear...).

Martrydom can simulate the chaos of real combat. You never know what's going to happen in combat and even the bravest are filled with fear of the unknown. This annoying little perk brings that "unknown" into the game. Everyone hates it and fears dying to a martyr's nade -- even if just a little.

I'd rather have about a half dozen other changes to the game rather than have IW spend their time on Martyrdom. "Fix the server browser first" needs to be our new mantra!

:salute:

[Kodakk]

You can say "it's realism" all you want - point is, it's the most unrealistic thing in the game.

-It's cheap
-It's automated
-It's got a huge blast radius
-It's got a short fuse
-It occurs even if you lack grenades in your inventory
-A huge amount of players use it
*This means, it doesn't add just a "little" fear/unknown, it's ALWAYS.

It could be used tactically, in SD for example...

But when it is used with FF off, on a hardcore server, along with an M203, 3x frag, and jugernaut - it's just annoying.

You can argument to "just deal with it" for almost anything. There's a community for a reason - to provide feedback and to let the people in charge know what to think about tweaking to better the game as a whole.

:::Edit:::

I've played FPS's online since I was 9. Most FPS's have a "flow" as mentioned by Whiskey. Martyrdom disrupts that "flow". That would be fine *occasionally* but I consistently find myself frustrated - in hardcore servers - with the fact that players can replace skill with an automated perk.

I like to slap "how skilled you are" on people. Now, I know that isn't the right thing to do, but I do it subconsciously. By this I mean, I'm impressed when a player kills me with a nice shot, or a quick knife... but when I am consistently fighting an enemy team who, time after time, kills me after I should have killed them, it just frustrates the heck out of me.

To sum up my opinion:

I killed you. I should have the advantage in a post-life perk. Martyrdom gives that advantage to the person who was eliminated.

[FPS[SONIC]]

I hear your frustration and acknowledge it.

This is a community, but not a developmental feedback community. The game is produced and shipped. It won game of the year while having this perk which so many think is flawed. Hmmm. We know better than everyone else, huh? There's that ego again...

Martyrdom does not give an advantage to the person who was eliminated. He was eliminated, right? Just because he took you out too, with a tactic you don't see as fair doesn't change the fact that the enemy is dead, correct?

Only if you are counting the number of kills and comparing them to the number of deaths does it matter.

I'm not looking for realism. I like the game play as it stands without any changes. As for flow, might I presume to offer that there are other "flows" available? Perhaps we all might need to change our game play to adapt to the current situation on the field vs thinking that our established way is the best way (of course). Oh, that darned ego just won't quit!

I shoot my mates all the time and go, "How did you survive that?" I should have killed them, yet they are still walking around and I'm respawning. Is it frustrating? A little, sure!

When the same thing happens with a martyr's nade, everyone starts to go sideways! You can say it's easy to say, "Just deal with it." It's true that saying it is much easier than living it.

As I mentioned earlier, all things change under stress. Perhaps it's your time to deal with this aspect of gaming? Are you going to let it get to you? Or, will you reach down inside yourself and do something different this time?

Red pill or blue pill for you today? Are you ready to see how far down this rabbit hole goes? lol

[imported_Whiskey]

I'm not sure that a majority of gamers are satisfied with just leaving it the way it is. IW did a fine job on COD4, but they are not perfect (remember the early sniper-rifle issues that a majority of people had trouble with), and some things are only "discovered" or become issues either when you get a large number of people together or when those who only care about their personal score find ways of taking advantage of particular game features. That's not ego, it's just that some things don't necessarily reveal themselves right away because you can't always predict the behaviour of "the herd".

TDM is a legitimate game-type, as are the others, and there are certain methods to playing it. If some of those methods are being affected drastically, then I think the discussion and point/counter-point must continue, in order to see if indeed it's a big enough issue to be changed.

[Keyelite]

Martyrdom does not give an advantage to the person who was eliminated. He was eliminated, right? Just because he took you out too, with a tactic you don't see as fair doesn't change the fact that the enemy is dead, correct?

Well, You have to take into account if you are on a kill streak, picked up a special weapon, just spawned, etc. Again, some martyrdom deaths seem fine, because they were truly your fault, but even when you are trying to avoid them and you somehow die from them-- something is wrong.

I understand there are other flows, and believe me, most people here would change their play style to attempt to avoid further deaths. For example, someone likes to run around and knife with a specific kit.. You will camp more and stay away from choke points. Those who don't change their flow and continue to do the same thing will get more frustrated. I've done it before especially when I am just running around listening to music (That flow will NOT work in this game compared to other games, which gets frustrating when you just want to have a fun non-serious time of playing cod4)

To be honest, I don't die from it too often. Nothing technical about the martyrdom system needs to be changed, just the logical fact that an a grenade needs to be with you for it to work (Which is the point of the entire thread, if anyone has drifted off of subject).

[FPS[SONIC]]

Valid points all.

I suppose that my views might be biased by the fact that I only tend to play sparsley-populated servers. I also tend to play with experienced players who do not use this perk.

I'm fortunate that I'm not affected by the frustration of repeatedly being a victim of a martyr's nade. It only happens on the odd occasion and I'm normally somewhat amused by it. So, it's somewhat hard for me to understand how perturbed folks are.

I apologize if I come across as judgmental, I just think that this can be dealt with by 1) not playing where this perk is a problem and 2) embracing a state of mind where you don't let a game create this much internal tension.

If you're not having fun, you're not really playing: you're working. Think about it. :salute:

[Chris_Redfield]

All things evolve (change) under stress. I'm sure that IW's plans morphed more than a few times.

The argument about Shoot > Advance is not militarily sound. Your forgot the most important real life step: Clear the Objective.

If you fire on enemies in the objective area, the very next step is to clear the area of any lingering threats. That is very, very important and will get your guys killed otherwise. That doesn't mean, "Run over to the tango corpse and stand over it." :dead:

If they reduced the blast radius and/or lengthened the fuse, I'd be fine with that. My point is that I don't believe either are necessary.

If someone choose's martyrdom over other very valuable perks that's a win for my team.

Martyrdom can be avoided to an extent by not placing yourself in harm's way. Deal with the enemy at a distance when you can (use the "S" key to advance to the rear...).

Martrydom can simulate the chaos of real combat. You never know what's going to happen in combat and even the bravest are filled with fear of the unknown. This annoying little perk brings that "unknown" into the game. Everyone hates it and fears dying to a martyr's nade -- even if just a little.

I'd rather have about a half dozen other changes to the game rather than have IW spend their time on Martyrdom. "Fix the server browser first" needs to be our new mantra!

Thread closed. Well put, sir.

Aerialz, as for your "realism" argument, and hat Martydom is the least realistic of them all, youre dead-wrong. By far, most of the perks are bordering between fantasy-land and realistic. You can explain, in realistic terms, every perk there is. Starting from Sonic Boom and chemical compositions which enhance explosives, to Martydo, which is basically a grenade strapped to your weapon (AKA, you die, let go of the gun, and the grenades pin is pulled, just one scenario). In the same time, each and every one of them being unrealistic.

EDIT: Keyelite, the fact that Martydom is a "magical" grenade that appears out of nowhere, is of no importance whatsoever. Its COD4, youve got magical bullets, magical guns, magically running people and regen, magical UAVs, magical helicopters and air strikes that come from god knows where to your spot in 5 seconds. COD4 is a magical game. Be Gandalf the Grey and exploit it to the max.

[[7IR]581|Pvt.Md2a]

I wonder how Double Tap or Sleight of Hand would work.

[Chris_Redfield]

I wonder how Double Tap or Sleight of Hand would work.

Double Tap = weapon modifications

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7hD4imO3gw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbklCvsoFRo&NR=1 (LAWLBURGERS?!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9AJzv8gb2A&feature=related

Sleight of Hand = 1500 hours of magazine changing training

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAFxgQmxbGI

(hey, this calls for a new thread )

[Babymax]

Aerialz I killed you. I should have the advantage in a post-life perk. Martyrdom gives that advantage to the person who was eliminated.

Martyrdom replaces consistent perk advantage with a post-life one. In other words, the person using it has given up something that could've helped them kill you to begin with, like say Deep Impact. I'm not sure why you came to the conclusion that you are entitled to an advantage not only when both of you are alive but also after you've killed the Martyrdom player. Two advantages, why?

[Keyelite]

EDIT: Keyelite, the fact that Martydom is a "magical" grenade that appears out of nowhere, is of no importance whatsoever. Its COD4, youve got magical bullets, magical guns, magically running people and regen, magical UAVs, magical helicopters and air strikes that come from god knows where to your spot in 5 seconds. COD4 is a magical game. Be Gandalf the Grey and exploit it to the max.

lol your right, it's a very magical game, but that is not the point I am trying to make with having a grenade in stock for martyrdom. I have no problem with grenades magically appearing after death, but having one in stock should help cut down on spam nades. Think about it, COD4 nades themselves are way overpowered (Which can be good and bad, depending on which end you are experiencing them). Pre-Nades determine a LOT in competition, if you have ever experienced them. People know that, and they "Exploit" it, spamming nades wherever they can for quick, easy kills. To them, the more grenades the better! I would hope that developers will figure out these "exploits" and try to combat it a bit, which is the case with the "magical" martyrdom grenade.

[Chris_Redfield]

Most of my playtime is in S&D, I know exactly just how important grenades are, how powerful they are. Thing is, its COD4, you need to accept that grenades in this game, are at least as important as guns. Because the whole maps are designed with cover in mind, and there is a whole selection of tools to render cover useless, to keep the game flowing, to keep the game open, to keep it dynamic.

[Keyelite]

Most of my playtime is in S&D, I know exactly just how important grenades are, how powerful they are. Thing is, its COD4, you need to accept that grenades in this game, are at least as important as guns. Because the whole maps are designed with cover in mind, and there is a whole selection of tools to render cover useless, to keep the game flowing, to keep the game open, to keep it dynamic.

Don't get me wrong, grenades in this game are unique unlike in other games, I know the power of them as I use them all the time, but there seems to be that "X" factor with them. Something is not quite right with them, and I don't know what. You can instantly get killed by one, just by looking at it, literally. Maybe thats why they had to include the "grenade indicator" for multiplayer?
Also, from your S&D experience, you will know they can make certain maps balanced maps greatly favor offense or defense. Obviously any game has unbalanced maps, but to be able to eliminate usually one to even three people with a single grenade within ten seconds of a round, thats a first. S&D Rounds are usually won solely on how many people are eliminated with grenades.

But to get back on track, Martyrdom should not really effect S&D too much, everyone plays cautiously to begin with. Maybe a question to ask is why people use martyrdom in the first place?