Calling all snipers...

[BlueBunny63]

Re: Calling all snipers...

Although I must wonder where you get your numbers from, because 18387 / 2761 is roughly 6.7, not 20-30. Of course, maybe 20% of those rounds were ones where you were only there half the round, so with about a 10% variance it'd be more of 18387 / 2485, which would still only be 7.4. Where is the 20-30 coming from, exactly?

~Wolfgang

People always go one step too far. Here's what the guy said:

"I just make some nice 20/30 kills per round, protect some assets/flags and cover my team/squad and say thank you very much at the end of the evening."

Allow me to assist with the translation. He's saying "20 or 30 kills", and "assets or flags" and "team or squad". He's not saying "20 divided by 30" or "assets divided by flags", or even "teams divided by squads".

Alles klar?

[WolfAlmighty]

Re: Calling all snipers...

People always go one step too far. Here's what the guy said:

"I just make some nice 20/30 kills per round, protect some assets/flags and cover my team/squad and say thank you very much at the end of the evening."

Allow me to assist with the translation. He's saying "20 or 30 kills", and "assets or flags" and "team or squad". He's not saying "20 divided by 30" or "assets divided by flags", or even "teams divided by squads".

Alles klar?

Ja, alles klar, aber er hat gesagt das...

Er, wait a sec... :p

He said he gets 20-30 kills a round, so theoretically if you divide total kills by total rounds (which were the numbers I posted) it should have been somewhere in the 20-30 range, or maybe even closer to 15 (notice I even gave a 20% variance for partial, assuming half-completed, rounds). I got between 6.7 and 7.4, so I was just wondering where he arrived at the range of 20-30.

~Wolfgang

[EntertaineR_06]

Re: Calling all snipers...

Oh don't get me wrong, they do have a role (of sorts) and they aren't worthless (I don't think I ever mentioned they were worthless but I CBA to go back and find all my posts in this thread right now so if I ever once said that they were worthless I apologise). My point was, and still remains, that of the seven classes, they have the least amount of overall teamwork ability in the game. That's it. Sure, a good sniper like Jemme will be much more useful than a n00b medic that revives his teammates in front of a tank, but that comes down to a player-by-player assessment, and has little to do with the kit. Sure, sniper seems to be the most newb class in the game (not because it's easy to do, but because new players seem to gravitate towards it) and consequently most of the snipers you see are newer players who don't know how to play the game well. But those players aren't what I'm referring to, and I'm actually not referring to the good players, either. I'm referring to the kit based on what it brings to the table in terms of overall teamplay, and yes, again, it has it's uses - it's not useless - but compared to the other six kits it has the least to offer teamplay-wise.

Oh, and don't worry about the SOH, mate. I have a bit of a dry sense of humour myself, which usually offends people but you seem to be take it all in stride, so props to you.



I post a little jab and he responds with a challenge. So I tell him what I think. It's not my fault he can't take a joke, now is it?



See, that's the right attitude to have, because he does help his team (again, not saying that the OP or other snipers don't) and he plays his game the way he wants, regardless of what other people think.

Although I must wonder where you get your numbers from, because 18387 / 2761 is roughly 6.7, not 20-30. Of course, maybe 20% of those rounds were ones where you were only there half the round, so with about a 10% variance it'd be more of 18387 / 2485, which would still only be 7.4. Where is the 20-30 coming from, exactly?

And with over 420 hours as a lone wolf, I wouldn't imagine you cover your 'squad' all that often, either.

~Wolfgang

If you're having an argument like that then you can argue that only the good medic's are useful to the team, then any kit can be the worst kit in the world, its the person that is in that kit that will determine its use. NOT the kit itself [ only took me a week to come up with that xD]

[WolfAlmighty]

Re: Calling all snipers...

If you're having an argument like that then you can argue that only the good medic's are useful to the team, then any kit can be the worst kit in the world, its the person that is in that kit that will determine its use. NOT the kit itself [ only took me a week to come up with that xD]

:laugh: Well yeah, I'd certainly agree with you there. A good sniper is 10x better than a bad anything (Support is a fun class, but when they're tards and don't give out ammo and think they can stand and shoot full auto at a target 100m away and get a kill they aren't really helping anyone but the enemy :p ). I'm just saying, all things being equal, like one person is equally proficient at every kit, sniper has the least overall to offer to the team of any class. But again, that isn't to say they offer nothing at all to the team (again, if I said something along those lines sometime before, I apologise). Snipers are good at picking people out of mounted guns, for example. My team's armour was moving in to the West Mine on FuShe, but they had AT there and the TOW emplacement manned. As a sniper, I took the high road and came in above the flag and made sure the TOW launcher was clear (I got three guys before they finally realised someone was picking them off...you'd think people would figure out that if one guy gets picked off sitting in the TOW next to you that immediately jumping in and taking his place wouldn't be the smartest thing to do... ) while the rest of my squad worked on the AT troopers, and the armour was able to roll in with almost no resistance. So yes, snipers have uses, to be sure, but the uses they have are less than that of the other classes overall.

~Wolfgang

[dBs]

Re: Calling all snipers...

The sniper kit is intended to be defensive. I think everyone has gotten so caught up in the blitzkreig mentality in this game that defense has become a forign concept. How a sniper defends the flag is pritty obvious, they snipe the attackers before they can get close enough to be a worry for any other kit (including sniper). Even a decent sized number of guys can be taken down easily at range. If that fails then theres the claymores and the sniper is then free to pick up the victoms kit for any close range combat needed. Or if the victom was support he can resupply himself more claymores and go back to distance defense.

On the advancing side of things hes still a defender. When your moving with your squad you have the highest accuracy and lethality (word?) at range. You can both spot and kill the enemy before they even become a threat to your squad. Thus the sniper kit is acting as a defender even durring an agressive advance.

Snipers are also whats known as movement limiters. If Im in a squad and theres a fair amout of opposition, all I have to do is flank them and force the enemy force to find cover from both my direction and my squads direction. Now their movement is limited and their at a severe disadvantage.

The argument that any other kit can kill at range as effectively as a sniper is flat out wrong. The weapon numbers prove it. Now if we were back in the older patches where it was required to have your crosshairs still for 1+ full seconds, then yes I would agree (and I didnt play it then extensively), but with all the weapons current specs, its a blatently incorrect statement.

[EntertaineR_06]

Re: Calling all snipers...

I think the fact that you guys bashing the sniper shows that it is a hard kit to master, therefore you should have more respect for the good snipers *cough* dBs *cough* :)

[CDN-SMOKEJUMPER]

Re: Calling all snipers...

Yes, because we all know it takes mad skillz to sit on top of a building somewhere a mile away from the action and shoot at people who can't see you or don't know you're there. GG!

Actually, I have played against a team of snipers before, and I must say claymore spamming never felt so annoying. But it did get amusing after all the flags were capped and we got the pleasure of watching our heli go to each building top and maim the snipers positioned there while the rest of the enemy team waited for the round to end (they had no more flags, you see). Fun times.

~Wolfgang

You have no clue yourself on how to be a proper sniper. When I'm sniper my squad doesn't get jumped from behind because of my claymores, also try and snipe us from a mile away, I've seen you I'll get you. I move and shoot all the time and will bait people when I'm in close. Not my fault people like you get raped by my claymores.

[duffry]

Re: Calling all snipers...

Wow, this thread won't die!

Good job to all the guys polemicising away and keeping eyes on the thread, excuse me if I just bring back the point that started it for a moment then you can get back to it.

If you like sniping and want to meet others who do too to discuss play etc there's a community which has recently started you might be interested in.

http://community.dmz-gaming.com/snipers/index.php

Thank you.
:)

[volkl]

Re: Calling all snipers...

The sniper kit is intended to be defensive. I think everyone has gotten so caught up in the blitzkreig mentality in this game that defense has become a forign concept. How a sniper defends the flag is pritty obvious, they snipe the attackers before they can get close enough to be a worry for any other kit (including sniper). Even a decent sized number of guys can be taken down easily at range. If that fails then theres the claymores and the sniper is then free to pick up the victoms kit for any close range combat needed. Or if the victom was support he can resupply himself more claymores and go back to distance defense.

On the advancing side of things hes still a defender. When your moving with your squad you have the highest accuracy and lethality (word?) at range. You can both spot and kill the enemy before they even become a threat to your squad. Thus the sniper kit is acting as a defender even durring an agressive advance.

Snipers are also whats known as movement limiters. If Im in a squad and theres a fair amout of opposition, all I have to do is flank them and force the enemy force to find cover from both my direction and my squads direction. Now their movement is limited and their at a severe disadvantage.

The argument that any other kit can kill at range as effectively as a sniper is flat out wrong. The weapon numbers prove it. Now if we were back in the older patches where it was required to have your crosshairs still for 1+ full seconds, then yes I would agree (and I didnt play it then extensively), but with all the weapons current specs, its a blatently incorrect statement.

I think DBs has pulverized the opposition in this debate with empirical evidence, sound arguments (flag defense, pinning down enemy, slowing assault, dispatching vehicle gunners), and a damn fine video to boot. So yes, for most players the sniper has less to offer for squads but they are far from useless. And in the hands of someone like DBs, can be extremely potent even in a squad.

One of my favorite squads is a sniper, medic, and support on a crane. Granted, you can't have everyone on the team staked out above otherwise you won't capture any flags. But having a squad of three overlooking a popular enemy spawnpoint can lead to massive kills with few casualties. Medic keeps everyone alive, sniper has access to unlimited ammo to pick off enemy soldiers, and the support and medic can chuck grenades all day long with a few intervening bursts of rifle fire as appropriate. Ladders are of course claymore'd should anyone get any bright ideas.

Remember the continual process of capturing and losing flags doesn't really amount to much unless and until ticket bleed sets in. Or if you lose your main base with the heavy armor/aircraft. In some games, this is a huge factor. In most games, ticket bleed probably only accounts for 5-15% of lost tickets (would be nice to have a real world stat here but I don't). I think it's fair to say that most ticket losses are due to direct deaths. I'd be willing to bet that the sniper class has the highest kill to death ratio (another stat I'd like to have but don't). Yes, they probably have fewer kills than medics and assault. But when talking about net point effects, it's the kill to death ratio that matters more. As I've said in other threads, if you make 10 kills but die 20 times as assault, that sniper with 5 kills and no deaths is probably doing more for the team. A few nights ago I went 12-0 as sniper. Far too little to make it to the top 5. But in terms of net point advantage, probably #1 or #2.

[Jemme101]

Re: Calling all snipers...

Good points around in this thread which finaly seems to settle down into some real debate.

To clarify my statement on 20-30 kills per round and soloing a lot.

The 20-30 kills I get when I am in the zone sniping away on hotspots in maps. Like the middle Island on Dragon Valley with the 3 AA emplacements and the battle between Temple and the Village that you have there. Or when I put down some fire on Dalian Plant or Daqing Oilfields from up high on either Airstrips or at the Factory. Atm I havent got that much time (hopefully this weekend I will) to rake up good kill streaks. But I did when I had more time on my hands. I also switch out of classes/kits when somebody goes down with a Med Kit I switch out and revive him and make a kill or so when I am in the Med Kit. The 20-30 kills cannot be derived solely from one kit I am afraid :)

The time spend as a Lone Wolf comes from the time I played a lot of SF. Ghost Town from the Lone Belltower and Devils Perch from the SEAL Arti Island/House near the Beach. Both maps were played as Lone Wolf because I wasnt anywhere near a Flag to cap so either spawners or other snipers spawning on me would have given my position away. And joining a squad just to get some hours in is not my style. You either are in a squad moving up in force or you are not. Hence the high LW time.

These days I usually do make a squad or hook up with one because I am trying a different style of play. So I am moving out from high fixed sniping positions and moving on down with a squad or flanking positions and provide a forward spawning point. It depends on my mood and time availible what style I play offcourse :)

[WolfAlmighty]

Re: Calling all snipers...

Yeah, that makes sense. I know that pre-patch (whichever one that made the FF-off on claymores) making yourself a squad leader as a sniper, or somehow becoming squad leader by default, would usually ensure people spawning into your claymores (and getting you insta-punished, naturally :hmm: ), so lone wolf (or locked squad, which there really wasn't a point to when autobalance still switched squad leaders) was the best way to go.

BTW congrats on the 12-1 KDR with sniper rifles. That's some impressive shooting. I've seen spawnraping tanks on Karkand with lower ratios than that, but to do that as an arty-magnet sniper is quite a feat. Especially on a mostly vehicle-centric map such as DV, usually I find myself up against armour more than personnel, but then again I play the 32 player version so there's no worries about jets or much AA. But I'm sure your team's pilots appreciate you keeping the AA clear.

And sort of OT (although still sniper-related), since, according to your sig, you favour the M24, do you ever use the L96 at all? Like when you're Chinese/MEC (or Spetz on Ghost Town)? How does it compare, in your opinion, to the M24? I use the M24 when I'm USMC and the L96 for any other army, and they both are very accurate (it's only me that inaccurate ) but from an expert sniper's point of view, are they really much different at all, to warrant using the L96 when you're USMC, or is it really just more of a preference of style (look and sound of the gun) since the accuracy stats are identical?

~Wolfgang

[sknight]

Re: Calling all snipers...

polemicising

Thanks duffry. Learned a new word that I didn't even know existed. Except, I guess we American's spell it with a 'z'

I've been watching this thread for a while, and as for my 2% of a dollar, when I snipe, I am not afraid to go cap flags. I don't really snipe on vehicle maps, because there's not much use...or action. I try to help as much as possible. I've seen lots of people just sitting on a hill making loud gun noises and occasionally getting a kill and then killed, but for the most part, I see snipers being very active in the overall outcome of the match. Sure they're weaker...and I don't understand the whole camoflauge in a city map...but it is what it is.

[Jemme101]

Re: Calling all snipers...

Yeah before the patch which switched FF on the Clays I never had people spawn on me unless I was on the move going for a flag cap. And I usually didnt bother making a squad anyways because I didnt want to take away another means of having people spawn somewhere else in the map. As I allready stated previously.

Txs for the compliment but I still suffer the same problems everybody else has which is getting out of the spawn in the first place :) Hence my Kit KDR is way lower than my Sniper Rifle KDR. But as far as Sniper standards go the Sniper Rifle stats are those which count, not the Kit. I see "Snipers" in Jets all the time so the Kit stats dont really tell you anything. Its the equipment in the Kit that tells the story for this Class imo.
Apart from that I keep track of my kill-distance-stats (in meters). Started doing this after I got some affinity with scoring kills on a regular basis over 250 meters.
I am now using a new version where I keep track of kill-distance AND from which position (standing/crouching/prone).

Well I play both sides when I play Dragon valley (allways 64 player). For me its more the other way around. If I cannot use the M24 I use the L96A1, but it is like you stated. Technically the weapons are identical, the difference is in sound, sight and reload (all favoring the L96A1). But I just like the more meaty (is that a word?) feel and sound of the M24. And it is also a bit provocative to use the louder M24 When I play PLA/MEC I steal the M24 from a kill I made and try to kill the same sniper on the other side again with his own Rifle :)

[WolfAlmighty]

Re: Calling all snipers...

Txs for the compliment but I still suffer the same problems everybody else has which is getting out of the spawn in the first place :) Hence my Kit KDR is way lower than my Sniper Rifle KDR. But as far as Sniper standards go the Sniper Rifle stats are those which count, not the Kit.

Oh yes, the whole, "Hey, there's a jeep at this flag, I'll spawn there and drive where I want to go." only to spawn staring down the barrel of a Type-98 with a supply crate next to him and see the 'You are critically wounded' message across your screen. I thought that was just my bad luck, so at least now I know it happens to others, too.

I see "Snipers" in Jets all the time so the Kit stats dont really tell you anything. Its the equipment in the Kit that tells the story for this Class imo.

Yeah, the 'n00b eject' phenomenon. Sometimes I think the M95 was the stupidest thing to have put in the game because of the glass-penetration feature. I mean, realistically, for every one time someone's able to shoot down an enemy chopper pilot with it, there are probably 20 times where someone's been sniped out of a jet or heli by a teammate. :hmm: Thankfully I don't fly much so I'm never in the middle of that fracus, but still.

Apart from that I keep track of my kill-distance-stats (in meters). Started doing this after I got some affinity with scoring kills on a regular basis over 250 meters.
I am now using a new version where I keep track of kill-distance AND from which position (standing/crouching/prone).

Only 266 kills at 250m? You n00b. (j/k ). How can you tell the distance you shoot someone at, or is it kind of just a guess based on nearby flags? Farthest enemy I've sniped was from the hill near the AA of the Communication Central on OCS to the small airstrip flag, but I've only done that maybe 4 or 5 times, and I don't think that's even 250m, and even then I was surprised to even get a hit, much less a kill. The targets were relatively small when I shot them, but I'd imagine the guy you killed at 450+ metres must have been just a speck on your screen (which reminds me, I need to clean my monitor :p ). Do you recall how far up you had to adjust for bullet drop?

So what makes Dragon Valley your favourite sniping map? Also, I'm sure you go for headshots, but do you shoot moving targets when they're at 250m+ or do you usually wait for them to stop before taking the shot? (Sorry for all the questions, but sniping is one thing I've always wanted to get better at at this game and no better way to do so than to start by asking the experts, right? :) ).

~Wolfgang

[DeadlySwiftShot]

Re: Calling all snipers...

pretty far i would imagine around 1.5cm, if u watch some of dbs vids you will hvae a clue too, also i killed up to 333m on dragon valley, thats a good map for distance kills, you should try it