Are aircraft out of balance?

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

I've read some pointless posts in my time, but this one is fantastic.

Please, oh master of the AA, share your secrets with us... unless, as I suspect, they dont exist.

yea really pointless...

when people have played the game for alot ****ing longer than you, they are more experienced...

i really hope these: http://bf2s.com/player/67051929/ arent your stats, because they kinda show you as someone thats had the game for 5mins and has no knowledge of the planes(flown twice with no kills, 2 deaths and 2mins total flying time) or how to make aa effective.

but your air defence looks ok!! you'll learn the tricks to using it as you play more.

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

I think leave it as it is, if the J10 is better let it, a good piolet can pawn a j10, points at metallicag., and just think of the j10 as "the flying noob tube"

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

yeah I agree with most of your points and what attracted me to the BF series years ago with BF1942 was the total combat experience and the rock-paper-scisors gameplay in that everything has its logical equal, its logical inferior and its logical superior.

In BF1942 the planes were slower for the most part (Prop planes, duh) and the AA was all 100% static flak guns, a skilled AA user could lead a plane at most any altitude and have it smoking and running in short order. A fighter plane had guns only and was a good counter to the bombers, and the bomber planes were a logical counter to some infantry but mostly tanks and other ground-vehicles.

Tanks in BF1942 had their logical counterparts as well, AT mines and Bazookas in the hands of smart engineers and AT troops could deal with these iron beasts in the right dose but generally not before the tank made its impact on the battle felt.


Fast-forward to BF2 and the relationship between ground pounders and armor/transports is essentially the same as in BF1942... every vehicle is in danger of a coordinated AT attack, a sneaky C4 expert and a tricky engineer putting mines in blind spots, Tanks and APC's and Transport vehicles are in perfect harmony.

Planes in BF2 are for the most part balanced in their ability to take out infantry and vehicles with bombs and are even susceptable to other planes if their attacker is a skilled dog-fighter...

What is lacking, in my opinion however, is the consistent ground-based threat to attacking aircraft. That's about it. So from this thread I've learned that stationary AA Missles are "totally balanced" and if you cant use them you are some kind of mentally challenged idiot. I'd love to believe this but I cant fathom how it is the case. I've yet to see a reasonable "how to" from these people who claim AA is balanced or powerful in its current state... I mean, if its that balanced and fair I would have expected half a dozen links to how-to posts or screenshots of techniques or whatever... but they havent come... just loud-mouthed jet-jockeys aspousing to have mastered AA and claiming the idiocy of anybody who cant figure it out...Ahh, even digital pilots are hot-headed ego-maniacs who think the world revolves around them.


How do you know a fighter-pilot is at your party?

He'll tell you.


How do you know a gamer wants to be a figher pilot?

They tell you you suck.

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

Mmmmm this was posted on EA forum so I'll repeat what I said there. Didn't want to do long post.

The first problem exists that people complain about all sorts, your average 'I only play Karkand player' hates tanks / apc's and basically doesn't want a Jet / Chopper getting in the way of an infantry game. I suspect they'd get owned in CS (really rather puzzled by what the hell their doing here) or Quake so we have to suffer them here. So this sort of player does want a insta kill weapon, it should or will never happen.

Then there is your more typical BF2 player, Jets choppers tanks reason why they bought the game in the first place but feel a little powerless against a Jet Pilot when either his team doesn't have a Jet Pilot or his Jet Pilot is just a plank.

I agree stingers don't cut it and could be a lot better two missiles and more mobileAA would make it much better.

Wandering off the point a bit, I don't think we'll see anymore patch's after 1.3 and 1.3 is finished so what's done is done.

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

on the rare occasions that im near an AA site and use it, i kill several planes and several choppers in a few mins.
if you cant work out how to use them, then you should quit and play something else, maybe solitaire would be easier??

I've read some pointless posts in my time, but this one is fantastic.

Please, oh master of the AA, share your secrets with us... unless, as I suspect, they dont exist.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

*Edit* In response to Chris_Redfields post - I don't think we want an easy kill, but a kill that requires as much ability as anything else, plus the great thing about AT guys is that they can spawn AND move, I don't see that happening too much with AA emplacements. Oh yeah, and the fact that the APC has very limited field of view (same as tanks) where as Jets and helicopters can get rid of the HUD.

Shooting a tank from an APC or a jet, which is easier?

If a player in a jet has 400 hours, he shouldnt be downed by a player in an AA emplacement who just clicks and scores. Thats my "philosophy". There should be balance in skills.

I´d get rid of all AA emplacements and add an aditional Mobile AA for every 3 stinger sites per team. But thats just me.

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

ppl play Karkand cus there are no planes to own them since they are most likly CANT FLY THEM.... yes a lot of BF2 players cant fly planes neither helicopters!!
1. becouse they suck and dont want to practise
2. becouse they dont have a joystick so they suck

Don't like joysticks. Prefer my trackball.

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

S2A still misses, and often. Even if a Pilot doesn't drop flares. Now granted, it hardly every misses if your target is flying in a straight line, but, what good is that for you? How many Jet pilots fly in a straight line?!

Hell, I can dodge it just by outrunning the locking distances. If it all comes down to it though, I drop flares and don't return until my flares recharge. Simple. I think about, "Hmmmm... I was in this area of the Map. The A.A. is here, I'll just strafe it and take it out and be back on my way".

The locking range needs to return. If this was done, the entire concept of "cannon" strafing A.A. would be moot. Either that, or add a "cannon" of some type to Static Anti-Air sites.

{WP}Paas

i'd say a good 60-70% will hit and they will follow you no matter what turns you do, althought in that 30-40% you can pull a few moves and it luckily misses, but its rare.

so you can dodge a missile by getting out of the locking distance? no you got out of range before/as it was fired, the tone means youve been locked onto as well as a missle chasing you. you didnt dodge anything.

the difference between aa range and pilots radar range is very small, after you line up and start shooting the aa is able to shoot back.

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

Voted neutral:

I have a grand total of 3 minutes in a jet so I can not comment on the air to air situation however I will raise some points about how I feel on foot.

Generally if a helicopter comes by I think that maybe I have a chance to take it down and will try - even on foot armed with small arms you can shoot it, it gives you a feeling of power and even maybe slight chance, if it is not very much.

The A.A. sites are ok against choppers as they can not escape the lock as easily as jets. Jets just fly by and bomb you or machine gun you, or just whatever they feel like. I only hit jets that are being totally stupid and flying directly at the emplacement, because then I don't need the lock.

Now, another sore point for me is that these jets don't bother taking out helicopters or any other major threats. Mainly they go straight past the other jet and to the mainbase of the enemy to commence baserape - not much good for the rest of your team, but a nice way to rack up easy points I suppose. Sure, I've met the odd pilot that when I say "Enemy armour spotted" will reply with a confirmation and blow it away, but thats the exception rather than the rule.

If jets stuck to their job rather than bombing guys on foot then it would not be so bad. If I'm in a tank or any other vehicle it makes a lot of sense, but just bombing individual soldiers gets on my nerves.

*Edit* In response to Chris_Redfields post - I don't think we want an easy kill, but a kill that requires as much ability as anything else, plus the great thing about AT guys is that they can spawn AND move, I don't see that happening too much with AA emplacements. Oh yeah, and the fact that the APC has very limited field of view (same as tanks) where as Jets and helicopters can get rid of the HUD.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

I hate you people sometimes.

How much chance does a single AT unit againts an APC? Depends on situation, right? And skill level and such? Right?

Now how much chance do 2 AT units have againts an APC? Chances have increased pretty much, havent they?

Now apply the same logic to jet situation.

What I hate to read from day to day is people crying for a 1 hit killer. Comeon guys. I didnt fly my ass off to be here as an easy 2 points for you!

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

...and what would that do for the ground Dynamic? Both pilots can at any time decided it's pointless to chase one another and just rack up the points on dive bombing runs against ground forces. I've seen it...

{WP}Paas

The same thing happens with Tanks in Karkand, they usually avoid each other and go for the raping of the troops. Ofcourse there will always be those people who are persistent and take down the tank with their tank. Same with jets. Some idiots will avoid each other, some will go after each other and nothing else, some inbetween. I've seen it happen in planes, choppers, tanks etc.. on various maps. Just one of those things really.

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

you do know that S2A still rarely miss dont you ? its not pure chance at all :laugh:
all they did was adjust them so they werent so crazy zigzagging everywhere then doing 180 turns and going after you again.

S2A still misses, and often. Even if a Pilot doesn't drop flares. Now granted, it hardly every misses if your target is flying in a straight line, but, what good is that for you? How many Jet pilots fly in a straight line?!

Hell, I can dodge it just by outrunning the locking distances. If it all comes down to it though, I drop flares and don't return until my flares recharge. Simple. I think about, "Hmmmm... I was in this area of the Map. The A.A. is here, I'll just strafe it and take it out and be back on my way".

The locking range needs to return. If this was done, the entire concept of "cannon" strafing A.A. would be moot. Either that, or add a "cannon" of some type to Static Anti-Air sites.

{WP}Paas

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

No, they play Karkand because it's quit points. They don't have to worry about almost impossible to counter air strikes (Unless the pilot is just retarded and let's you hit him), and Karkand runs a bit smooth than other maps.



I agree on the Jet ideal. Yet, choppers? I don't know. I'm about a B+ Pilot and a A+ Chopper Pilot. I strictly use the mouse and keyboard with outraegous sensetivity settings and have no problems.



I'm assuming you're joking. If not. You're a fool.

As for the rest of the utterly rehashed and worthless arguements. I don't know what type of perfect world you pilots are living in. I don't know why you work only under the assumption of "realism" when it comes to jets "dominating a battlefield" etc. etc. Well, I guess I do. You don't want A.A. to be a outrageously lethal force against Air assets. Primarly because they would make your job "dependant" on the success of your team. Much like that of a Tank/APC/Helo, etc. Jets are the only vehicle that don't need a solid team effort in order to do their job well. You simply need your primary base, and decent enough skills to Split or Full S and get behind your enemy to unleash your 6 missile payload.

Ground units? Ha! Just bomb the living daylights out of them. If the mobile Anti-Air gets a lock on you, just find him in your bombing HUD and return to the general direction within' seconds. I promise he'll still be there just ripe for some forcefull raping.

...the comparisons to Tanks is just silly. Why should a a Jet be aloted the same level of repair as a tank that's forced to actually deal with an infantry level assault against them? I mean, a Jet has to worry about Static A.A. (...not really, it's a joke and has always been one), Mobile A.A. (It works, if you're willing to subject yourself to a 4 minute long battle against a Jet that involves massive amounts of relocation and timing; opposed to the pilot just having to bomb you once), or other Jets (...with a good pilot of course, otherwise this is worthless as well).

Tanks have the entire demension of the game to worry about. Tanks have to worry about a simple Spec-Ops soldier, all they way up to a Jet, all the while being sluggish as a tradeoff for thier power.

Jets? Power, Speed, Durability. All in one package, without a "direct" means to take it out without a ground playing putting out 500-600% the effort of the pilot who simply has to outrun the outrageously short A.A. locking range.

...now. I'm not going to argue and say planes should be Nerfed (Armor reduced, but that won't hurt anything if you pilotd are as "good" as you claim to be). Yet Anti-Air does need some work.

Simple fix? Give the Pre1.2 range back! I noticed that EA managed to just shaft the hell out of every ground unit and pray we didn't notice. They change the A.A. in 1.2 to be an almost "Surefire Hit". So, they reduce the range. Yet, when they change the A.A. back to being a weapon fo pure "chance" we are still stuck with the same craptacular locking distance?

...so in the end we have basically earned nothing? This entire topic just gets under my skin.

{WP}Paas

you do know that S2A still rarely miss dont you ? its not pure chance at all :laugh:
all they did was adjust them so they werent so crazy zigzagging everywhere then doing 180 turns and going after you again.

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

I don't get the poll, are aircraft v each other out of balance or are they out of balance against ground forces.

It should take just two ground AA to down a plane not three.

Re: Are aircraft out of balance?

Or becuase on those maps there are people that TK for the vehicles, and generally all the other stupid sh*t. Such as baseraping, artillery on the mainbase, and other stupid stuff. I play on other maps, but i can see how some people hate it. Especially considering rounds on vehicle maps are really boring if you are not in a vehicle. We need some jet maps where there are tons of jets, some huge dogfights. It wouldn't work well with the current A2A, but still. Actually there are probably custom maps like that, only thing is that those servers are unpopulated..

I don't agree. I see your point though.

About planes being unbalaned, as an average pilot i'll say that the J10 doesn't need a nerf, just that the F35 needs to be made better. To match with the J10. The MiG's can pretty much hold their ground (erm...sky?) and i find them almost as good as the J10..., so the F35 just needs an improvment. Surely it isn't that bad in rl?

...and what would that do for the ground Dynamic? Both pilots can at any time decided it's pointless to chase one another and just rack up the points on dive bombing runs against ground forces. I've seen it...

{WP}Paas