HELP!!!!Building new system

[knghtwhosaysni]

Re: HELP!!!!Building new system

COOLER MASTER Centurion 5 CAC-T05-UW Black Aluminum Bezel, SECC ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail $49.99
LITE-ON 16X DVD±R DVD Burner W/LightScribe and 5X DVD-RAM Write Black ATAPI/E-IDE Model SHM-165H6S - Retail$34.99
G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model F2-6400CL4D-2GBPK - Retail$222.99
ASUS P5N-E SLI LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 650i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail$139.99
Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3320620AS (Perpendicular Recording Technology) 320GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM$94.99
Acer AL2016W Silver & Black 20" 8ms Widescreen LCD Monitor - Retail$219.99
Microsoft Windows XP Home Sp2b 1pk w/Upgrade Coupon for Vista - OEM$89.99
FSP Group (Fortron Source) AX500-A, 2.0 version, 2 SATA, PCI Express, 500W - Retail$84.99
Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 Conroe 2.13GHz LGA 775 Processor Model BX80557E6400 - Retail$222.00
eVGA 640-P2-N821-AR GeForce 8800GTS 640MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Video Card - Retail $30.00 Mail-in Rebate $399.99
Grand Total:$1,559.91 ($1529.91 after MIR)

I included a monitor and an operating system.

[IndianScout]

Re: HELP!!!!Building new system

But anything lower than an E6600 will bottleneck a 8800gts.

depends on what the cpu is clocked at

[lonegunm4n]

Re: HELP!!!!Building new system

Generally, not imho. Case is almost as solid as the li-li, but offers better, more efficient, and more quiet cooling. The 450W Antec PSU is gravy, but is enough to get most people gaming happy and save them ~$100.

I'm not talking about the case. Yes, the case is a good case, but it's the PSU that I have a problem with. You may claim it's gravy, but thats for right now. It will get people gaming happy, for right now. Once they need to upgrade the video card, or something like that, they will have to buy a brand new PSU, which means they are out what they could've saved by buying a good solid one now.

[.:TR:. Cliptah]

Re: HELP!!!!Building new system

Thanks for all the input so far!

[megawhompertoo]

Re: HELP!!!!Building new system

which means they are out what they could've saved by buying a good solid one now...

...for another hundred dollars, right now. high end C2D's use LESS watts than mid-end pentium 4's. Aside from that, a 8800gts only req's 400W minimum w/26A on the +12V. edit, and we aren't talking about a SparkoTron PSU--we're talking about an Antec, i.e., the good shat.

Specs for 8800gts:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814121034

"Minimum 400W or greater system power supply (with 12V current rating of 26A)"

Still, if you're going to run four, five, or sLix of them, I can see your point. In that case (no pun intended), go nuts!

[lonegunm4n]

Re: HELP!!!!Building new system

...for another hundred dollars, right now. high end C2D's use LESS watts than mid-end pentium 4's. Aside from that, a 8800gts only req's 400W minimum w/26A on the +12V. edit, and we aren't talking about a SparkoTron PSU--we're talking about an Antec, i.e., the good shat.

Specs for 8800gts:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814121034

"Minimum 400W or greater system power supply (with 12V current rating of 26A)"

That hundred bucks they save now will be spent in 2 years when they have to upgrade their PSU.

With 26 amps on a PSU that can only put out 32 amps. With that, your betting that the user will only have a single hard drive, a single CD/DVD drive, a sound card, not that many lighted fans or lights period, and will not overclock their CPU or video card that much. Mind you, thats for the entire life of their system, and thats IF the PSU doesn't rapidly age and lose it's voltage. Even then, it doesn't even have a PFC. I'd rather spend a little extra now and save a lot later, and have piece of mind that my PSU could power the system I am building now and still have a lot of room to spare, as opposed to buying something that just barely meets my needs and doesn't really offer that piece of mind in safety.

[megawhompertoo]

Re: HELP!!!!Building new system

That hundred bucks they save now will be spent in 2 years when they have to upgrade their PSU.

Exactly my point: his hundred bucks will buy a 150% better PSU in two years than if he spent that hundred bucks now, thus it makes little sense to buy a taller PSU than you reasonably need, unless money is no object, or you are planning to double up on gpu's shortly.

+12V1/2@32A is plenty to drive a card that asks the system to provide at least 26A. peripherals included...even blue lights and fuzzy dice.

...and have piece of mind that my PSU could power the system...something that just barely meets my needs and doesn't really offer that piece of mind in safety.

A fuzzy blanket would be better than a PSU for these needs you describe. :p

OP looks like he's prepared to spend a boatload. If so, then sure, I agree with you. For someone on a little stricter budget, however, the combo is an appealing way to save a hundred bucks and still have a nice case with plenty of power.

[lonegunm4n]

Re: HELP!!!!Building new system

Exactly my point: his hundred bucks will buy a 150% better PSU in two years than if he spent that hundred bucks now, thus it makes little sense to buy a taller PSU than you reasonably need, unless money is no object, or you are planning to double up on gpu's shortly.

+12V1/2@32A is plenty to drive a card that asks the system to provide at least 26A. peripherals included...even blue lights and fuzzy dice.

But then what is he suppose to do if his whole systems fries from a PSU that couldn't power his system? Do you know exactly how many amps it takes to power a C2D system? You obviously don't, or you would've recommended a better PSU that you recommended to save a hundred bucks.

* Minimum requirements for CPU Support. View the entire ATX12V power supply design guide.

04A(84W),04B(116W) -- 12V2: 13A continuous
05A(95W) -- 12V2: 13A continuous and 16.5A peak for at least 10ms.
05B(130W) -- 12V2: 16A continuous and 19A peak for at least 10ms.
06(65W) -- 12V2: 8A continuous and 13A peak for at least 10ms.

source:http://www3.intel.com/cd/channel/res...ucts/35815.htm

That, with your 8800 GTS, means thats drawing 39 amps with a C2D CPU, not including overclocking any of his components . Thats 7 amps over that PSU's limit, AND STILL not counting the HDD(s), DVD/CD Drive(s), audio cards, and anything else the OP wants. What's that mean? To save a hundred bucks, he is going to fry his system. I promise you that.

So, please, stop recommending that case and PSU combo to people looking to build nex gen systems, whether they are on a tight budget or not. Eventually your going to fry someone's system and waste their hard earned cash because you recommended a PSU that you thought would barely fit their needs, when it fact it was severly underpowered.

You may want to just joke, and laugh about it, "A fuzzy blanket would be better than a PSU for these needs you describe", but I don't. With your bad advice, you would have just wasted a lot of money. I'm not saying don't give advice, I'm saying you'd better make damn well sure you fully know what your
recommending people buy, or eventually someone is going to buy a lot of high end parts and have it fried because of an underpowered PSU.

[ThunderPimp]

Re: HELP!!!!Building new system

and we aren't talking about a SparkoTron PSU--we're talking about an Antec, i.e., the good shat.

Antec the good shat? That shows what you know about power supplies.

http://www.behardware.com/news/lire/17-01-2007/#8549

[megawhompertoo]

Re: HELP!!!!Building new system

Antec the good shat? That shows what you know about power supplies.

http://www.behardware.com/news/lire/17-01-2007/#8549

P'raps you can translate their French for me, because if they don't have enough pull to have an editor, it leads their data to be suspect:

"A minimum if at least 100 units have been sold. Statistics per brand are based on a minimum sample of 500 units:..."

Translation? Thar be 100 units som-a-wheres...we seen' five hunnutt o' dem?...???

Gasp? Help? It's a mighty big internets'...I'm sure it's big enough to include 500 sample sized-opinions.

But then what is he suppose to do if his whole systems fries from a PSU that couldn't power his system?

Meh. P.T. Barnum has a great analysis on the characteristics of folks who always need more power to feel "safe".
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article28-page1.html
They take a quiet slant, but their testing procedures and the logic/circuits and load testing is right on. Beyond that, they are a fairly impartial source, although their review of the p180 is a little (hack, hack) fanboyish: one of their editors/reviewers helped design it.
Incidentally, I advise you seek legal recourse to obtain a refund on your circuits class. Clearly, you've been cheated.

You obviously don't, or you would've recommended a better PSU that you recommended to save a hundred bucks.
source:http://www3.intel.com/cd/channel/res...ucts/35815.htm
That, with your 8800 GTS, means thats drawing 39 amps with a C2D CPU, not including overclocking any of his components . Thats 7 amps over that PSU's limit, AND STILL not counting the HDD(s), DVD/CD Drive(s), audio cards, and anything else the OP wants.

Sigh. And not to belabor the point, but the 26A minimum considers the fact that the gpu is actually (prepare yourself for this, now) in a computer system. In other words, the mfg isn't saying you need 26A to plug in your card, the mfg is saying you need 26A from your PSU on the +12v rail going to your computer before you can consider using this card. Your suggestion that the gpu pulls 26A, meaning that is dissipating 12V*26A=312W (!!!!!!!!!!!), is actually rather incredible. If that's true (and it's not) you're going to need a hsf on the order of a solid metal desk and a ceiling fan. :)

No offense...we're all friends here, but there are specifications for a reason...usually, anyway.

sorry. i've edited this post a couple of time to fix my pooooor engrish, which gets a tad sloppy after six fingers of whisky. my Amperage figuring, however, is spot on. it has to be.

edit 2: if you'd like me to take your (hypothetical) figures for 26A+13A going to the gpu and cpu, and actually compute what Wattage PSU you'd need if the gpu was actually sucking up 26A (by itself) and the cpu was sucking up 13 (additional) Amps, we can. it would be fun to see how close to a nuclear reaction we could get.

edit 3: that's 39A*12V=468W on the +12V rail
plus: 3.3V*32A=106W on the +3.3V rail
plus: 5V*30A=150W on the +5V rail...hmmm scratch head...

let's see: by your analysis, we'd need at least a 724W psu to power your hypothetical rig, and (as you said) that's before you add the first hd, optical, fan, or pretty blue glow in the dark light.

Seriously, though. That's the math, and its why mfg's usually just tell you what your minimum sys req's are. It's much easier to figure.

[lonegunm4n]

Re: HELP!!!!Building new system

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article28-page1.html

I've read that whole thing, but you still come up short, 7 amps short to be exact.

Mind you, I skipped the sections talking about wattage, since they don't apply. I'm not saying it doesn't have enough wattage to power the system, I'm saying it doesn't have enough amps, which amps are way more important than wattage in a PSU. You say it has enough wattage to power the system, but I'm saying the more important thing, the amperage, isn't enough to power his system.

This is what I'm getting from the article you posted:

"...consider only the combined 12V current capacity." (emphasis in original)

Lets do the math then:

15+17= 32 (amount of both 12v rails combined)

13+26= 39 (8800GTS and 13amps for a C2D)

which, 32-39= -7amps

Simply put, your wrong.

Your the one that needs to take a course in electricity, not me.

[megawhompertoo]

Re: HELP!!!!Building new system

So, please, stop recommending that case and PSU combo to people looking to build nex gen systems, whether they are on a tight budget or not.

You may want to just joke, and laugh about it, "A fuzzy blanket would be better than a PSU for these needs you describe"...

We're all friends here, so I want you to know: That taste in your mouth...well, that just a smidge of crow. And also, that's why I joke and laugh--because we're all friends, and we all started out knowing jackshort about current.

15+17= 32 (amount of both 12v rails combined)

[B]13+26= 39 (8800GTS and 13amps for a C2D)]/B]

LOL. NO, no, no. "A PSU with at least a 26A on the +12V rail" capacity considers the rest of the PC. They really don't expect you to ONLY have your GPU plugged in. :) They actually understand that it needs to be plugged into...well...something.

That something being the rest of the PC....!!!!!!!!!!!!

Read my...oh...third edit above for the actually wattage (given a normal 3.3V and 5V rail) it would take to power your hypothetical rig in which a gpu consumes 26A. My gosh--you've got your gpu consuming more than the CPU (which, at 13A is right on).

Warning bells ringing yet?

edit: they...err...should be....a gpu that is running at ~500mhz...eating up more power than a dual core processor running at 2400mhz PER PROCESSOR...maybe in another galaxy, lol.

I want the name of your physics prof. We have a score to settle. :)

Here, it even says so in Engrishy:
"A minimum 400W system power supply (with 12V current rating of 26A)"

from:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814133188

edit final: You are right--if money is no object (to include folks shopping for a 8800 series gpu), then mo' power = mo' better. Heck, I just bought a antec 650W w/3x19A +12V rails in anticipation of an upgrade in the summer (found a deal, otherwise I wouldn't have). But, the case/450W combo with 32A would be more than adequate to power that gpu and a core2duo, if you wanted to save $100 or buy $100 worth of additional hardware.

[lonegunm4n]

Re: HELP!!!!Building new system

1.the 26A minimum considers the fact that the gpu is actually (prepare yourself for this, now) in a computer system.

2. In other words, the mfg isn't saying you need 26A to plug in your card, the mfg is saying you need 26A from your PSU on the +12v rail going to your computer before you can consider using this card.

3. Your suggestion that the gpu pulls 26A, meaning that is dissipating 12V*26A=312W is actually rather incredible.

4. if you'd like me to take your figures that tell you you need 26A+13A for the gpu and cpu, and actually compute what Wattage PSU you'd need if the gpu was actually sucking up 26A (by itself) and the cpu was sucking up 13 additional amps.

39A*12V=468W on the +12V rail
32A=106W on the +3.3V rail
30A=150W on the +5V rail...hmmm scratch head...

1. So then whats the point of buying a 8800GTS if you don't put it in your computer, and let it sit there on your desk as a paperweight? Thats like buying a Quad core and let it sit there on your desktop. You might as well not even buy an 8800GTS then.

2. Again, see above. You can plug it in, but you won't be able to play any games with it. It will sit there, because the PSU won't power it.

3. Actually, it's not. One of my 7800 GTs take about 17 amps, and I have two. So no, thats not unreasonable, it's only 408 watts.

4a. My 600watt Fortron Source PSU could power that system, and I've got about the same Amperage on the 3.3v and 5v rails.

4b. Going by your numbers, the way you multiplied, I have a 1132.8 watt power supply. Thats about double what it really is. (my PSU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817104025) Needless to say, your math isn't adding up.

Read my...oh...third edit above for the actually wattage (given a normal 3.3V and 5V rail) it would take to power your hypothetical rig in which a gpu consumes 26A. My gosh--you've got your gpu consuming more than the CPU (which, at 13A is right on).

No. No bells ringing. Only 1 7800 GT of mine draws more amps than my CPU, and I've had this system for almost a year.

edit: they...err...should be....a gpu that is running at ~500mhz...eating up more power than a dual core processor running at 2400mhz PER PROCESSOR...maybe in another galaxy, lol.

The GPU can do a lot more work than the CPU can. Have you ever done a 3Dmark06 test, and sat through the the CPU test, where the CPU has to render graphics? Even a massive overclocked water cooled dual core CPU can only do about 1 fps. You need to look beyond the mhz. The GPU simply does a lot more work than the CPU, yes, even a dual core one.

[megawhompertoo]

Re: HELP!!!!Building new system

Going by your numbers, the way you multiplied

OMG. "The way I multiplied" was according to the laws of physics, in which for our purposes, A*V=W, unless you're a delivering massive current over distance (edit: and for goodness sake, I pray that you are not :) )

They hide this stuff in books. And on your internets'.

[lonegunm4n]

Re: HELP!!!!Building new system

1. Heck, I just bought a antec 650W w/3x19A +12V rails in anticipation of an upgrade in the summer (found a deal, otherwise I wouldn't have).

2.But, the case/450W combo with 32A would be more than adequate to power that gpu and a core2duo, if you wanted to save $100 or buy $100 worth of additional hardware.

1. You bought a PSU that has 57 amps on the 12v rail.

2. No, it would not. That PSU can not provide enough amperage to power the system during gaming use, of which the OP is looking for.

OMG. "The way I multiplied" was according to the laws of physics, in which for our purposes, A*V=W, unless you're a delivering massive current over distance.

I got that. I know physics. But the numbers you came up with don't match what I have.

so, how do you explain that?

I have a 600 watt PSU, but yet by your calculations, I have a 1132.8 watt PSU.

Wheres the extra 532.8 watts?