Steam v3.0

[|azure|]

Zips wrote..

Had BF2 used a Steam delivery system those updates could have been near completion already, even with a few failed patches along the way, the fixes usually come within a few days to a week. That's a far cry from having to wait months to address all of those issues.

Would you care to explain to me how Steam speeds up development of a patch? When a patch is ready, its ready. The means of delivery certainly doesn't help them get the fixes done more quickly. If I am wrong then please explain how?



I see it as nothing more than a way for them to advertise and stick games in your face. Also, they manage to cut out the middle man and make more money. Can't really blame them for that I suppose. Plenty of willing gamers around.



In the menu I see play games, browse games, friends, servers, monitor, and news.



Why should any of that be necessary for us to play CS? Why should I need an extra server browser just for valve games? I have ase, which works with all games. Why should I have a browse games feature? If I want to look for a new game to play, I would rather look at some of the gaming sites, where I can check out all the new games, not just Valve games. Friends?? There are already tons of chat clients. News, well at least you can turn that off.



Damn.. I said I was going to shut up and here I went and posted again. Ok flame away...

[Zips]

Edited by [user="151473"] @ [time="1128374390"]

|azure| wrote..

Would you care to explain to me how Steam speeds up development of a patch? When a patch is ready, its ready. The means of delivery certainly doesn't help them get the fixes done more quickly. If I am wrong then please explain how?

Half, if not most, of the fixes planed for the BF2 1.03 patch could have already made their way to the end user instead of having to wait all of this time. THAT is the key difference there.

I see it as nothing more than a way for them to advertise and stick games in your face. Also, they manage to cut out the middle man and make more money. Can't really blame them for that I suppose. Plenty of willing gamers around.

All advertisements can be avoided. Disable the notifications in your Steam options. At most, the only thing you'll ever see is the "New Games" or "Coming Soon" at the top of your Steam game's list. Hardly a problem.

Why should any of that be necessary for us to play CS? Why should I need an extra server browser just for valve games? I have ase, which works with all games. Why should I have a browse games feature? If I want to look for a new game to play, I would rather look at some of the gaming sites, where I can check out all the new games, not just Valve games. Friends?? There are already tons of chat clients. News, well at least you can turn that off.

Why have a server browser? Is that some sort of an asinine question, or what? Every single game that is played online has some sort of browser functionality built into the game. This is no different.



The browse games window doesn't have to be clicked on either. Why do you insist on complaining about things you can easily avoid. I'm sorry, I didn't realize anybody was forcing you to open up and look at the product line offered by Valve. Many people never even bother with that, and still others use it frequently to find new mods they never knew about. Complaining about something that you can easily avoid is a foolish arguement at best.



Simply looking at the Steam program itself, (and not at the games provided on it) it's very difficult to think of any better solution for a game developer with so many games and such a huge 3rd party mod community. In terms of getting all of their products known and promoting mods that may have otherwise gone unnoticed, a unified launcher is a great solution.

[|azure|]

Edited by [user="173815"] @ [time="1128380695"]

Zips wrote..

Half, if not most, of the fixes planed for the BF2 1.03 patch could have already made their way to the end user instead of having to wait all of this time. THAT is the key difference there.

Ok I'll give you that. Although, I bet if the BF2 guys wanted to roll out some of the smaller fixes, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. They just choose not to. But do you want to install a steam type program for BF2 as well? I certainly don't. I highly doubt that every game developer is going to start using Steam.

Also, I could argue that the ease with which they roll these "fixes" out has caused them to be rather lenient in their testing.

All advertisements can be avoided. Disable the notifications in your Steam options. At most, the only thing you'll ever see is the "New Games" or "Coming Soon" at the top of your Steam game's list. Hardly a problem.

I already do that. Its the fact that I even have to do it that bothers me.

Why have a server browser? Is that some sort of an asinine question, or what? Every single game that is played online has some sort of browser functionality built into the game. This is no different.

True. And I suppose this is needed for the average gamer. So, I won't argue with this point.

The browse games window doesn't have to be clicked on either. Why do you insist on complaining about things you can easily avoid. I'm sorry, I didn't realize anybody was forcing you to open up and look at the product line offered by Valve. Many people never even bother with that, and still others use it frequently to find new mods they never knew about. Complaining about something that you can easily avoid is a foolish arguement at best.

Once again, it just doesn't need to be there. I don't want it and yes I don't ever look at it. I know one thing, when I load up quake3, there are no advertisements or news to avoid. Yes its trivial, but I mentioned it because I simply don't need this crap to play CS. I only wanted CS from Valve.

Simply looking at the Steam program itself, (and not at the games provided on it) it's very difficult to think of any better solution for a game developer with so many games and such a huge 3rd party mod community. In terms of getting all of their products known and promoting mods that may have otherwise gone unnoticed, a unified launcher is a great solution.

And thats what it really comes down to. Do you want programs like this installed on your computer from every game developer of every game you buy? Maybe you do, I don't know. But Valve should not assume that everybody is ok with it.

Not much different than downloading Opera and having the google ads at the top. You have to buy the browser to get rid of them. Well, I bought this game, so I don't want their ads.

If their games are good enough, then the magazines and websites will give them good reviews. Then people will notice and buy them.



Whatever, you will think this is all nonsense anyway. But, not everyone is the same. I don't like it. period. I miss the old won days.

[Zips]

I'll counter your agruement with this:



Without innovation, where would we be? Certainly not typing on high-end PC's, arguing over a mass media distribution system at blazing fast speeds. We'd still have carrier pigeons relaying our arguement on what's the best building material for our huts.



Steam isn't out to please everyone. It's out to serve its purpose, and its purpose is to act as a central hub for Valve's games. It's there to cater to those who enjoy 3rd party mods, or who enjoy seeing the new games coming from Valve. Sure it's a good marketing tool, but everything is about marketing any more. Ads in racing games ring a bell?



Oh, put a shortcut to CS on your desktop. You won't even notice Steam if you close your eyes and make believe it's just added time to the loading of your game.

[woah]

Perhaps Valve should have made Steam optional, and made it so people could just connect to the Steam servers via the WON client. Only updates would have to be installed through Steam. Maybe so many of the clans and various people I use to play with wouldn't have quit.







But then, of course, they wouldn't have been able to advertise and sell as many of their games . . . oh what a pity that would have been for the client . . . >>

[entRo]

xlokix wrote..

Yes that's it. I'm out to ruin Steam by creating bugs for myself!

I'm saying given your intelligence, you probably did something stupid and fucked up your games, not Steam.

You put up a pretty strong defense for someone who has been flaming Valve for years on end.

I flame Valve when they deserve it. Steam's launch was terrible, and I'm sure I said something about it. Steam in it's current form, however, is one of the things Valve has done right, and I'm not going to flame them just to flame.

I'm not here sway people into thinking Steam is bad, I hardly play any Valve games anymore. So why am I here? Let's just say I

..? Good answer.



|azure|, I'd much rather BF2 be on Steam. I wouldn't have to deal with what might be the worst server browser released with a major game in the last year, and I'm pretty confident that we would have gotten other fixes much quicker. Dice doesn't put out a ton of fixes at a time because people aren't going to want to download 10-20 small updates over a few months time. If they were using Steam to rollout fixes and updates, the people wouldn't have do anything but sit back and watch their game automagically update, and thus we'd be getting more updates faster.



I can't believe you're complaining that the Browse Games feature is on Steam. I don't look at the skins on CSN, but I'm not going to complain that they're there, because 1) I'm not forced to browse through them and 2) others like to use them. You're just looking for something to bitch about, no matter how ridiculous it sounds.



"zomg this car came with a free DVD player, what kind of bullshit is this?!"

woah wrote..

Perhaps Valve should have made Steam optional, and made it so people could just connect to the Steam servers via the WON client. Only updates would have to be installed through Steam. Maybe so many of the clans and various people I use to play with wouldn't have quit.

Then whoever ran the WON servers would have to keep them up.

[xlokix]

entRo wrote..

I'm saying given your intelligence, you probably did something stupid and fucked up your games, not Steam.

It takes a far more intelligent man to respect other peoples comments than ultimately declare them a douche bag if their opinions differ from yours.



That unfinished sentence was a joke. Good work detective.

[-:Nighthawk:-]

I may disagree with your opinion about Steam, xlokix, but I'd have to agree with what you just said.

entRo wrote..

I don't look at the skins on CSN, but I'm not going to complain that they're there, because 1) I'm not forced to browse through them and 2) others like to use them.

I COMMAND THEE: USE THEM NOW. FEAR THE WRATH OF THE CSN-SKINS DEMIGOD!



<shameless plug> p.s. submit some new ones! </shameless plug>

[entRo]

xlokix wrote..

It takes a far more intelligent man to respect other peoples comments than ultimately declare them a douche bag if their opinions differ from yours.

I don't care if people have differing opinions. I only call douche-baggery when there's douche-baggery going on.



And the joke wasn't funny, sorry.

[woah]

Then whoever ran the WON servers would have to keep them up.

Not really. They could have easily patched the interface so it would just call from the same server list and authentication server (and whatever else) that steam calls from instead. Both clients would call from the same servers. WON2 does just this. Everyone would have been happy: people who didn't want those extra "features" and advertisements that Valve was offering could stay with the WON interface (notice: Not WON), and those who wanted Steam could use it. It wouldn't have split the community as both would be playing from the same servers and games. I'm sure there would be some other adjustments that had to be made, but I'm absolutely sure that doing so would have paid off considering they wouldn't have upset half the community and lost some players.



The only people it wouldn't have "paid off" for is Valve because they wouldn't be able to lure as many people into buying their new products--I'm guessing thats why they didn't turn towards this more "user-friendly" solution (It's not like they didn't think of this). Like most businesses, they value a profit over the well-being of their community.

[xlokix]

entRo wrote..

And the joke wasn't funny, sorry.

Well I am the God of throw-away one-liners.



Jon Stewart is my apprentice.

[Splatula]

Steam is the most user friendly way of doing it. Users are morons. I mean if you are visiting CS Nation, chances are you know a thing or two about CS. Most of the newbs out there haven't updated their XP past installation, think zotob is a brand of soap, and think that if you shoot people through a wooden door you're a haxor. So I wouldn't exactly give them any options, they just click on OK and everything either works or fucks up.



Steam is irrelevant really, make a shortcut to CS. Steam will sit in your tray and do nothing but occupy a measely 62MB... not a big deal if you have a gig o' ram or more. And not bad if you have 512 either, though with the price of ram these days if you have less than a gig, I just feel sorry for your parents.



You don't like the news popups... check out the SETTINGS for steam.



Users...

[woah]

By user-friendly, I didn't mean what Valve or people such as yourself have determined to be easiest solution for others. I was considering the fact that a large portion of people disliked steam with the migration back then, and a large portion still dislike it today--despite its easy-to-use attributes. Whether you've decided for them that it's a better scheme, because you like it or you feel it would be better, is beside the point I am trying to make--and I quite thorougly understand that steam is much more "user-friendly" in reference to ease of use.



But, apparently after several years of its release, "user-friendliness" obviously isn't what a good portion of players care about--computer illiterate or not. They want the old interface because thats what they were use to. They've become comfortable with that interface, and, for some, it brings back feelings of nostalgia.



Others like it because you didn't need a computer with at least 256 ram to run the program, and at least 512 to run it smoothly. Yes, ram is cheap these days (given you're not 13 and jobless, and your parents will actually pay for it), but the simple fact that people (whom most of, according to you, are so computer illiterate that they have trouble operating interfaces such as the WON interface) have to:



(1) figure out what time of RAM they have (if they even know what ram is?),

(2) identify if they have enough DIMM slots available (given their computer doesn't have motherboard limitations on ram, or any free space altogether), and

(3) have to open up their computer and insert the ram.

For someone who doesn't know how to effectively operate the Windows operating evironment and a program simple GUI interface, and for someone who most likely has spyware and adware hogging up their resources already, this is a lot to ask. It's even a lot to ask for someone who has been playing the same game for several years comfortably, and then has to spend $80 for a 512MB ram upgrade so steam will load up in less than 20 seconds.



And there's also those who just liked the interface because it was fast. Even with 256 Ram, you could load up the WON interface and connect to a server within seconds. Steam takes much, much longer.



Now I'm positive Valve knew this. In such a dramatic decision, they most definitely looked over all the likely and possible catastrophes that could, and (for many) did take place. They were aware that they could have easily allowed the user to access the same authentication and server listing server from both clients; all parties would have been happy. But they didn't; they wanted to advertise their products. They're a business, and money is their prime concern. I'm positive they care about their community, but it's obvious what comes first.



If Valve's concern was more about the condition of their players, they would have allowed those who wanted to migrate do so, those who were comfortable with the old interface remain with it (by simply patching the interface to access Valve's new servers used in Steam), and those who were new and had not become accustomed or attached to the old interface use steam, as it would be easier for them to use.



Even if Valve totally ignored the fact that it would take longer to load, and that people would not have enough ram to run it smoothly or at all (which is reasonable to ignore considering people have to upgrade for new games eventually--although, for many, it was just the same game they had been playing for several years), it's obvious that they would have spurred some sort of uprising and that they would lose players due to the termination of a nostalgic and well accustomed interface.

[-:Nighthawk:-]

Well-written argument, whoah.

woah wrote..

Others like it because you didn't need a computer with at least 256 ram to run the program, and at least 512 to run it smoothly.

First valid downside to Steam that I've seen posted. It does seem that VALVe decided that it was time for people to move on. Admittedly, CS1.6 still has some of the lowest system requirements of any popular game on the market, but it's no longer the type of thing you load up somewhat comfortably on your old 400mhz / 64MB system.

And there's also those who just liked the interface because it was fast. Even with 256 Ram, you could load up the WON interface and connect to a server within seconds. Steam takes much, much longer.

And the second valid point. If Steam is already running, the game launch doesn't seem to take that much longer, but it is an increased load time.



That said, Steam seems to address two things that never were properly done via the WON network: fake keys, and the anti-cheat. As far as VALVe's business goes, I've seen far less pirating of CS ever since the Steam interface was made mandatory. Likewise I haven't seen anti-cheat measures be effective until recently, and only via Steam.



So yeah, you're right, there definitely are a few trade-offs. That said, with those last two points (fake keys and anti-cheat) in mind, I don't know that it would really be possible to have the old interface connect to the same servers, even if it was "updated" to do so. To make that functionality work, you'd basically just have to hide the Steam interface, but it'd still be running in the background to make the authentication and anti-cheat elements work. At that point, you pretty much lose all your increased speed and lower system requirements.



Either way, whoah, it was a well-written and much more pursuasive argument than that of those who have come before you, with some definite and valid points.

[xlokix]

-:Nighthawk:- wrote..

I've seen far less pirating of CS ever since the Steam interface was made mandatory.

I've seen far more. With WON there was only one way to play Counter-Strike and that was with a CD key. There were no exploits to get around it or anything. The only real way to steal it from someone was to upload a trojan to their computer to find the cd key in the registry. And even then you could still play it. If someone steals your Steam account ID, you're screwed.



Do you remember a few months ago when someone figured out how to play Valves games without Steam? You could play any Steam game without a cd key or an account online and everything, it was crazy. Hackers were using it everywhere, you'd get banned, then all you would have to do is exit and come back into the server. Your ID would change everytime you entered or exited the program, so even if VAC caught you, there would be no way to perma-ban you. I know it took them a long ass time to fix it though.



Also almost anyone who wanted to play CS:S already had a cracked CS:S onto their own computers only a few days after Valve released it to Cyber Cafe's as a beta.