A Possible Pro-Mode?

[bozer]

My hopes and dreams for cs pro-mode: (and yes I think there should be one since the competitive side of CS and the pub side violently disagree with each other all over the net)

-------------------



1. Fix randomness (especially on Deagle)

2. Bring back the ability for me to kill 5 people that are lumped together with the M4A1. (like in 1.3 and earlier)

3. Give the mp5 a little tune up (like it was prior to 1.3)

4. It will never happen, but I'd love for the jumping to return (it was more fun in my opinion. I dont think tactics would change at all. The game would just simply be faster paced + more fun)

5. Make the shield cost as much as the AWP (problem solved)

6. Have a system that would somehow automatically adjust your rate and interp settings to be perfect (while at the same time locking it so that everyone had the same settings regardless of location)

7. Leave the money as it is now. Shaguar's method's just fine.



Bonus Points: Dare I ask for movable bomb planting? (not really important, but still kinda fun)



These are just my cs dreams. I dont care to argue about them, its just one of those "if I ruled the world" kinda things. If the bullets registered properly (like they did in the very early 1.6 beta), I'd be fine. For all I know these changes could happen and the game would end up sucking. Thats what beta's are for though =)

[I2o[G]uE TacT-X]

Edited by [user="196368"] @ [time="1081204063"]

in cs, after the 1st bullet, a invisible circle is drawn around your crosshair (being that your crosshair is the center). assuming this is a bullet after your first and you have not paused, there is an "x" percentage of the 2nd bullet or any bullet after your first shot hitting any spot in the circle. different weapons have different sized circles. e.g. the ak has high recoil because the invisible circle is larger than that of a m4. that is why all shots after the first in cs are random. every point in the circle has an equal chance of getting hit. if you pause this decreases the size of the circle making a higher percentage of the bullets you shoot accurate. with every shot (up to a certain point) the circle grows in size. that's how cs is coded, SO STOP TALKING ABOUT HOW SHOTS IN CS ARE RANDOM AND IT SHOULD BE GOTTEN RID OF, BECAUSE, ALL SHOTS IN CS ARE RANDOM.

bozer wrote..

My hopes and dreams for cs pro-mode: (and yes I think there should be one since the competitive side of CS and the pub side violently disagree with each other all over the net)

-------------------



1. Fix randomness (especially on Deagle)

2. Bring back the ability for me to kill 5 people that are lumped together with the M4A1. (like in 1.3 and earlier)

3. Give the mp5 a little tune up (like it was prior to 1.3)

4. It will never happen, but I'd love for the jumping to return (it was more fun in my opinion. I dont think tactics would change at all. The game would just simply be faster paced + more fun)

5. Make the shield cost as much as the AWP (problem solved)

6. Have a system that would somehow automatically adjust your rate and interp settings to be perfect (while at the same time locking it so that everyone had the same settings regardless of location)

7. Leave the money as it is now. Shaguar's method's just fine.



Bonus Points: Dare I ask for movable bomb planting? (not really important, but still kinda fun)



These are just my cs dreams. I dont care to argue about them, its just one of those "if I ruled the world" kinda things. If the bullets registered properly (like they did in the very early 1.6 beta), I'd be fine. For all I know these changes could happen and the game would end up sucking. Thats what beta's are for though =)

that's not pro mode. that's action cs fun mode!

[arsen]

Can I just make it clear that this is not a UKT feature, it is simply an article by a member of our community who posted in our columns section (part of the site where readers can put their own views forward).

[Mobius?]

Why make it easier for pros?

I don't get it.



Also, I play with Japanese, German, French, English, Spanish, Ethiopian, etc CS players. Oceans and borders only separate losers with dial up connections.

[BruiserY5K]

Edited by [user="230196"] @ [time="1081211013"]

Moto wrote:

3) I don't like the skill gap in Counter-Strike. Counter-Strike is the only game where someone who has been playing for three weeks can kill someone with years of experience just simply because of game mechanics. The only thing seperating the best from everyone else in Counter-Strike is shear experience and the ability to know when to make "The Right Move" against your opponent

shurcool wrote..

Wait...



What's wrong with that? Does he want all the people who are less skilled than himself to *NEVER* get any kills? The game is frustrating as it is when you're not doing well. Now imagine not getting *ANY KILLS* whatsoever, as long as there is a person slightly better than you on the server...



Again, what he said makes no sense... If he said that, even.

Hes not saying that a newb should never kill a pro. What hes saying is that the skill gap has been eliminated - the randomness of the guns as *compared to* pre 1.3, the removal of the jumping, the delay in switching weapons, all were introduced to remove the added skills a good player was able to do. And that is pure frustrating because youve reduced the gameplay just to make some newbies who arent able to deal with high skilled players happy. If you were around the 1.3 era, I remember alot of beginners or new players complaining about how hard it was to hit players who were jumping around, this was especially common on the official cs forumns. But now the game is dying, those complaints arent there, and those whove played the faster and more fun versions want that back - note, cs is dying and many feel it is because it is so slow and boring on pubs and pcws - its just repetitive "wait around the corner and shoot as quickly as you see them", when in pre 1.4 it was the same thing BUT with the added "go in on ure own and u can jump to avoid bullets, or the recoil wont go nuts on u when trying to move slightly to get that camper". It was the same game but better.



Also, what is it with the "if u dont like current version of cs go play quake" immature arguements? Imagine GW Bush saying "if u dont like my laws go live in another country" - people have the right to want alternatives or voice their opinions or claim how changes would be better or worse - especially if people know what they are talking about. Most of those that played the game alot in 1.3 and before know how much MORE fun it was then CS currently is, without detracting from tactics or teamplay - thats not to say CS still isnt a good game, as it is. But in 1.3 you had players like HeatoN and Mangiacapra showing individual brilliance sometimes *on top off* the same things they can do in the current versions of the game which is standard teamplay etc.



What do we have to do - provide examples? OK, lets do that. What we are talking about regarding these changes in 1.4-1.6 that remove "high skilled" abilities. CS movies are great for this, they can show you the difference - compare the skills/frags in FragOrDie2 or "Heaton One and Only" to any 1.5 or 1.6 movie and if you look at different frags (not all of them, some are just as possible in 1.5/1.6, though look at the recoil) you can see quite clearly the added skill factor in previous versions. HeatoNs 5 man takedown on aztec vs 4K in 1.3 for example - that wouldnt be possible in 1.5 or 1.6 (im talking about the recoil as well as the 3rd kill where he jumps, lands and aks). This was because if HeatoN was getting shot at he had the ability, reactions and aim to jump, avoid bullets, and hit back, *without* the weird and totally random recoil you get in the current versions. Also the kickback isnt the same when you land.



Or another example, go onto a server and do 2 bullet bursts with the AK till uve reached ure 30 clip limit, and look how badly random the recoil is. It wasnt like that in previous versions, yes there was recoil and it wasnt totally controllable, but it was never as random as like there is now, and what that does is make it impossible to accurately and **consistantly** take down mroe than 1 enemy, ie make it harder for someone with the ability to burst at 2-3 peoples head quickly - the reocil can just go tits-up sometimes, as we say in UK. As moto from 3D said, you can sometimes stand aiming at someones back with a deagle and shoot all 7 bullets, and 2-3 of them will hit, something that wasnt like that in 1.3 or nowhear near as bad. Hence, a good player with a deagle could *consistantly* (nb: important word, as were talking about randomness) kill an average player with a colt, but not now in 1.5/1.6.



I feel that the arguements for pro-mode are much stronger in fact, I have myself provided you with examples of what high skilled abilities were removed, and others for example Del have given you the opinions of the real pros who state the game has been made newbie friendly, the mechanics randomnised and weapon switch slowed down. The only solid counter-arguement has been about the community splitting. That is understandable, but I still maintain that introducing pro-mode would easily replace 1.6 because everyone would switch over. The rest of the counter-arguements have been childish name-calling, or just opinions with no valid points being made.



I just dont get why people are so opposed to some of the changes - fair enough splitting the community is always a worry though DoZ dealt with that issue (again, do SK play medium skilled clans? if u play in a top clan, ull know that they 99% of the time play other top clans in thier own secret irc rooms, so the top high skilled group is already split) - but the other changes would mean a faster, more fun, more skillful and more consistent version of cs, which you would only oppose if you are happy with a dumbened slow version that removes high skilled abilities.

[[SDSU]David]

Tactics have nothing to do with skill. Skill is aim, movement, positioning.

Funny, I thought planning out and executing proper movement and positioning was tactics.

in the old days a good player in a game vs a worse clan could go the whole game without dieing. Now that's extremely unlikely due to the random factor and other things mentioned previously.

Wow, cry me a river.



Slightly off topic, but I'm a little surprised this is coming from the UK and not the US. These changes all seem like they'd favor the American style of just running in gung-ho and opening fire. The clans across the atlantic always showed more teamwork and tactics in their playing style. Perhaps we have more in common with our English CS counterparts than I thought. I'd be interested to see what the Swedish clans think of this, though personally I think it's not the right thing to do.

[BruiserY5K]

[SDSU]David wrote..

Funny, I thought planning out and executing proper movement and positioning was tactics.

Depends what you mean by positioning - it can be both individual skill as well as within tactics. Eg on d2 if ure ct at steps u position ureself with ure team8. His usage of positioning as individual skill would be for eg on d2 on steps if ure being rushed and already moved away from ure set tactical position, where do u station ureself, etc. So no need to be a smartass if you cant understand what the person ure taking the piss out of is trying to say.

[[SDSU]David]

BruiserY5K wrote..

Depends what you mean by positioning - it can be both individual skill as well as within tactics. Eg on d2 if ure ct at steps u position ureself with ure team8. His usage of positioning as individual skill would be for eg on d2 on steps if ure being rushed and already moved away from ure set tactical position, where do u station ureself, etc.

Whether executed by a single individual or in coordination with teammates the decision to reposition yourself is still a tactical decision.

So no need to be a smartass if you cant understand what the person ure taking the piss out of is trying to say.

Ditto.

[Del`]

Edited by [user="230087"] @ [time="1081213792"]

Funny, I thought planning out and executing proper movement and positioning was tactics.

Learn some common sense for forks sake. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would realise the context of those words.



Positioning as in a noob will stand in places that aren't strong areas to defend/attack from, that make them an easy target for AWPs or people coming from behind, where as a skilled player doesn't make those mistakes. This applies to all games, even stuff like Quake.



Movement as in a noob will not make use of cover, not make themselves a hard target and not move to stronger positions to get the upper hand over the opponent they are in a firefight with. Again this applies to all games, including Quake.



All this applies to both public play and matches. Along with aim it's what distinguishes shit players from good ones.

[[SDSU]David]

Del` wrote..

Positioning as in a noob will stand in places that aren't strong areas to defend/attack from, that make them an easy target for AWPs or people coming from behind, where as a skilled player doesn't make those mistakes. This applies to all games, even stuff like Quake.



Movement as in a noob will not make use of cover, not make themselves a hard target and not move to stronger positions to get the upper hand over the opponent they are in a firefight with. Again this applies to all games, including stuff like Quake.

All you've done is give me examples of poor tactics. Obviously, in the same way that bad aim is not a skill, neither are bad tactics. This does not mean that aim in general has nothing to do with skill. I'm simply stating that good tactics and skill are one and the same, whereas you tried to separate them earlier by stating tactics had nothing to do with skill. This is simply wrong. Good tactics are a skill just as good aim is a skill.



In an effort to get off of semantics and back on track...



I'd support a mod with these sort of changes. It would at least allow a testing of the waters to see how much support this would have.

[F13ND]

ok GG to del, bruiser, and and smittens. you are obviously some of the few people here who have some exp with cs.



Those of you who complain that cs is better without these changes and that it is good because it now makes cs a tactical game. Go play some mmorpgs... competitive cs has always required strats and tactics to win.



And back to the whole SAS thing... think about it. A highly trained soldier against... lets say... a pizza delivery boy. Who do you think would win? The man with the better aim, being most likely the sas. This is just like cs. THose who have played longer and have better aim should have the advantage over someone playing for a week. I have a prime example. (you can believe me or not on this) but one time one of my clans played 3d on a scrim in nuke. Every round we got killed (who wouldnt?) But one round i got lucky and sprayed every bullet in an mp5 somehow managing to kill former F^funk in the face with the last bullet while jumping and spraying the whole clip. He was crouching and shooting at me as i came around the corner. Now going back and watching the demo i had to laugh because there is no real way that i qould have killed him had it not been for the randomness of mp5 spray. DOnt get me wrong.. im not a bad played at all but against 3d and other cal i players that shouldnt happen. Then going on i got more lucky and killed them 4 on 1... but thats a different story.



And i am not saying that this would or should separate the community by just making it a mode... i think that cs as a whole should be made like this

[axelgreese]

you guys mean something like this?



http://forums.csbanana.com/showthread.php?t=25356

[Thortok2000]

Edited by [user="152360"] @ [time="1081228846"]

I didn't read the article and I didn't read most of the comments, though Spoonman and Nighthawk (as always) had something useful to say, and even narby showed up to put in his two cents, which was also worth reading.



My stance is similar to narby's. The reason they have these leagues is because they are playing THE SAME GAME that everyone else is playing.



Imagine a 'pro version' of Basketball. Where there's only one hoop and it's 27 feet off the ground, because the players can aim better than normal kids on the street with their playground basketball hoops can.



Or 'pro version' of Baseball, where only one strike and you're out, because that makes it more 'fast-paced'.



No. The reason it's a sport is because they play THE SAME GAME as everyone else does. They just play it better.



The best you can do is suggest a different cal.cfg or whatever. That's 'pro mode' enough. Cal.cfg is like the equivalent of the 12 foot high hoop as opposed to the 8 foot high hoop in kiddy leagues.



So that's my stance on 'pro mode'. As far as bunny hopping and all that...whatever. I actually prefer smarter, more intelligent, tactics-required gameplay. I like to out-think my enemy, and be 180 degrees from where he thinks I will be. It's always a compliment when someone on a pub says "I find Thortok in the most unusual places"...they check the normal camping spots and there I am, somewhere else, shooting them while they're not even looking at me.



I can't quite 'run and gun' as well as everyone else, I'll admit it. But practice makes perfect, as far as that goes.



But it seems like, in pub play at least, I'm the only one who knows how to use the walk key, and when. It's always so annoying when I'm about to walk around a corner and kill an enemy I know is looking the other way...and a teammate comes running up behind me just at that moment, the enemy turns around and kills us both. Or even worse, kills me while my idiot teammate flees, only to be killed later.



But anyway, I like CS because there's chances to out-think the enemy. It's things such as awps, ak's, m4's, and such, where the run-and-gunners still win even when I've out thought them, that makes me mad. Like how a M3 shotgun will do like 9 damage if you hit them in the back...what's the point of sneaking up BEHIND them then? You only kill them if you get them in the face...at which point they normally kill you first, especially if you miss on your first (and only) shot.



And stuff like the jumping hitboxes. I begin shooting an awper from two feet away with my M4, he jumps, and awps me, and takes about 25-50 damage, total, whereas I of course die, because my arm got shot by an awp.



It's the kind of stuff like that that annoys me. Where the run and gunners get completely outwitted, do some fancy shenanigans and come out winning anyway. Like how people will just run all around the map killing anyone they see without giving a split second for thinking about stealth at all, just because they can kill the enemies better than they can kill him.



And that's how it is NOW, without bunny hopping and mad deagle accuracy and who knows what all that's being suggested.



No...I much prefer CS as a thinking game. It's the reason why I got interested in the first place. Strategy, tactics. But not /purely/ so, you of course had to know how to aim and such. But sometimes I just get so frustrated, with the people who run around at full speed ahead, announcing their presence to half the map, and they step around a corner and kill two people that knew he was coming and that he had no way of knowing were there, just because his AK is that good and can get headshots at long range.



I dunno. I just think that games that don't encourage thinking aren't good for society, because all it encourages is people to just be dumb and do what everyone else does.

K0brakai wrote..

Is it harder to hit while strafing, or harder to hit the strafer? should it be that way? (not asked as a rhetorical question, i want to know what people think)

I personally feel that someone who is running around screaming at the top of their lungs (read: full auto, or even non-stationary bursts) should be much more easier to kill than someone who is calm, cool, collected, and sniping the sucker's head off to shut him up.



I also feel crouching should also improve your accuracy while not drastically increasing the size of your head hitbox. There is ZERO reason to crouch anymore, except for movement purposes, such as vents, being behind cover, jump crouching, or silent ladder climbing.



But the way it stands now, that insane dude strafes around a corner and pops a headshot on anyone he feels like without barely slowing down to the smallest millisecond of 'standing still'. The AK in particular pops those headshots with ease, even when the target's ENTIRE BODY is SMALLER than the crosshair that you're aiming with...you hit the head. (Or miss, of course. But no body shots, except for maybe that one bullet before the 2nd bullet headshot a milisecond later.) That just annoys me to no end, and I'd really wish they'd fix that at the very least.



By the way, recoil (on some guns) is not random. If you go full auto on an AK, you'll notice an upward curve, slightly to the right. If you go full auto with an M4, you'll notice one or two bullets leading up to the other 28 in a fat, short rectangle, going back and forth for a bit.



So to me, if I wanna full auto an M4, I start by pulling down slightly and then to the left, right, left, with the crosshairs at their feet. I've actually gotten to the point where I can only spend half a clip (or less) and get a headshot...from full auto.



(This of course wastes more bullets and is a lot slower than bursts...but it proves the point that the recoil is not 'random').



Nah, the problem isn't the recoil, the problem's the hitboxes and stuff. It's almost impossible to shoot someone in the back of the head and get a headshot. Even an AFK.

[N*-DAnk]

pro-mode huh some of the changes they want sound like nub mode



only thing i like is slowing down the awp blah no pro-mode



bad idea

[SteelV]

I think this is kind of messed up, it's just like making updates and leaving the old version still out there for people to play. Choose and make it that way for everyone, why should "pros" play differently?