Cliffe On Balance

[[Mage]wildwest]

If it isn't broke, dont fix it.

[Gameshot911]

Ev!L ErN!E wrote..

I think CS is WAY past due for some new weapons, people use nuthing more than M4/AK/MP5/Deagle/AWP.... you know why? Because the other weapons SUCK!!!



Not to mention some different game types to play, playing de_ and cs_ maps get old... think of a way to add some new game types into CS before you WAIST time marking up the prices on weapons.

hmm let see...cs has been running for about 5+ years now..and WHAT?!? its still the most-played online FPS. Giving it a "huge overhaul" would change the game. If you want a new game go buy a new one. CS is played for what it is today

QuickDraw wrote..

3. you wondering if anyone would read ur post when u didnt even read the posts other ppl made. i said that they should consider a $32,000 wallet if they were to implement the price changes.

I did read your post. $32,000 is many, MANY times too big and you should be shot for posting before thinking about the reamifications of such a change.

[^.j()$h.^]

This newspost seems to have brought out a lot of anger in a lot of you. Some of you shoudl really chill out, these changes are not final. If you do not want them added, go and voice your opinion. Jess Cliffe will listen! That is why he's asking for your opinion!



A lot of you say VALVe never listens to the community and I completely disagree. VALVe has been listening to the community more now, then they ever have. Why don't you just shut up?



My opinion about the changes is simple, they're horrible. The costs now are for the better, these changes are not good and will not make Counter-Strike better in anyway.

[SinaC]

oh look its dancing monkey boy

[cliffe]

Edited by [user="156518"] @ [time="1080682321"]

Thortok2000 wrote..

I like the new prices. They didn't mention anything about the 552, though.



This is just one way they can 'balance' the guns, as opposed to changing things such as rate of fire, spread, etc.



They don't want all of the guns to be alike, but they want them all to be viable.



People don't buy a para because it sucks, and you can get an awp for cheaper, anyway. With the changes, more people might start buying the para, just because it's not such a waste of money anymore.



The AK and M4 are the "uber-leet nub-killing wonderguns", the awp too, and I feel they should be nerfed in SOME way. I guess a price increase would do.



I don't care if you're good with them. Everyone's good with them. The problem is they're practically the ONLY GUNS USED, with the mp5 being the 'cheap alternative' and the awp being the 'sniper rifle'. Deagle is then the only 'pistol' that gets bought, except maybe USP's for Terrorists.



Glock, USP, Deagle, Mp5, M4, AK, Awp. Seven guns. Six, if you don't count glock because most T's will drop it and pick up a USP asap.



That doesn't count both sniper rifles (although the T sniper rifle can be seen more often now), both scoped rifles (aug/552), both 'cheap' rifles (galil and famas), EVERY other submachine gun, ANY shotgun, and most of the 'other' pistols. And the para.



Seriously, to all those people who think CS is an AK-M4-only game and that the other guns are just 'to distract newbies', grow up. They put the guns in the game for variety and they're going to balance them until they're useable and not a waste of money.



Step one: Assume that the final goal is to allow all guns to be worth whatever price they are, compared to the prices of better and crappier guns.

Step two: Assuming you've done step one, THEN you can complain/whine/suggest/comment.

You've hit the nail on the head.



And again, this is being *discussed* for a reason. There's no reason to berate anyone (Quickdraw).

[lith]

quickdraw you are a retard... grow up

[AceR]

ahahaha APRIL FOOLS!

[Helkite]

Hm? Are you sure it's an April Fools joke?



In any case, I think these changes are good.



To restate the obvious, this is going to make weapons more diverse and make all weapons worth their money and so they are all used. Though probably not very realistic (in RL, some weapons ARE better than others and still costs less), I believe it will make the game more fun. Anyways, I don't really have to say any more because Thortok really hit the nail in the head.

[Ryda]

Try before you judge

[Def1ance]

Dear Cliffe,

While this is an appreciated attempt to try and address gun balance in CS, this is only a temporary work around, you and I, and the CS community know it. What you guys really might want to considering doing, is just making the less used guns more effective, instead of "nerfing" the used guns, or changing the pricing. This will cause a lot of up-rage from other people I'm sure, but in the long run, I personally feel that it would be the better thing to do. Like our economy, you can't just inflate the price of a product so no one will buy it, that will cause unhappy customers, I suggest adding these changes on a preliminary basis, implement them into CS for about a month "trial run", and ask for feed back, that is the only way changes will ever get approved. Not only that, but while making these decisions, it would be best to keep your mind open to all facets of CS, not just the pubbers or Leaguers(or anyone in between). If you do plan to go on with adjusting the prices, I think that the pistols should adapt the new proposed prices. I appreciate your hard work, and dedication to CS and it's community.



================== Now for you CSN idiots.



Shut up plz, bitching won't do anything, All I read (I read the whole "thread") was flaming and bitching. If you don't like it, like someone said above, voice it in a mature manner, that way Cliffe, or any other CS dev might actually read it.

[cliffe]

Spoon,



Can you update the prices up for discussion from the thread? A lot of people's comments are becoming outdated. Thanks.

[Buddah]

Probably the best things said in the whole thread so far.

Spoonman wrote..

PPS: You ingrates should be grateful that Cliffe is giving you a chance to voice your opinion BEFORE these changes are made.

Thortok2000 wrote..

Seriously, to all those people who think CS is an AK-M4-only game and that the other guns are just 'to distract newbies', grow up. They put the guns in the game for variety and they're going to balance them until they're useable and not a waste of money.

Now to what Cliffe really wanted, instead of bitching. Thoughts on weapon prices.

228 compact: 550 I wish they'd clean up the randomness of this pistol, it would see some serious use then.

Five Seven : 600

Elites : 700 Just too much ammo for people topump out to let the price go lower.

m3 shotty : 1500

MP5: 1750

P90: 2000 Could become a second round choice for a few players.

TMP: 1100 , Mac10 : 1200, UMP : 1300 Mac 10 is actually the most dangerous of the three, but only when in close.



IDF Defender : 2,250 Taking it up to the old AK price is too high.

Clarion : 2,250 Leave as is. If you want to increase the price,increase the damage.

ak-47 : 2,700 or 2,800 Three grand is too high.

M4: 3200 I can live with this one.

Bullpup: 3400 Might see a few people give it a go.

AWP: 5200 Though I despise the AWP 5,400 is too high.

Para: 4300 SAW!



Though not mentioned I'd up the Deagle some so in pistol rounds a person could by it, but only have 2 extra clips of ammo, 21 rounds. It might force some players to give other pistols a try. Might want to check the usp and glock prices. Some people swear by the usp.

[.b0w. Bushwacker]

lol, i would be embarrassed to have some of your opinions...



i think this is a great idea in most cases.

CLiffe Wrote...



Edited by cliffe on Mar 30 2004 2:03PM (3 times)



Updated prices up for discussion. No need to flame.



228 compact: 550 (old price: 600)

Five Seven : 600 (op: 750)

Elites : 600 (op: 800)



m3 shotty : 1400 (op: 1700) -



MP5: 1700 (op: 1500) -

P90: 1900 (op: 2350)

TMP: 1100 (op: 1250)

Mac10 : 1200 (op: 1400)

UMP : 1400 (op: 1700)



IDF Defender : 2500 (op: 2000)

Clarion : 2400 (op: 2250)

ak-47 : 3000 (op: 2500)

M4: 3100 (op: 3100) -

Bullpup: 3200 (op: 3500) -

552: 3300 (op: 3500)

AWP: 5100 (op: 4750) -



Para: 4300 (op: 5750)



* with slightly increased dmg and slightly better accuracy on TMP and Mac10 -- to take them out of joke range.

[sardiax]

ak raise seems a little steep, and i really haven't seen like anybody use the famas... like ever - so that price change doesn't a whole of sense. but everything else sounds awesome. might screw pro players up for a bit but i could use some laughs.

[nibbzious]

def1ance is right. You can't just make the good guns cost more and the crap guns cost less. This wouldn't be balanced. Not so much a "trial run" unless it's on SPECIFIED PUBLIC servers.



These proposed changes would DESTROY clanwars and competetive league play. Right now the AWP is a huge investment and at it's price it's very difficult to buy one when you could buy an AK or an M4 and not be totally broke if you die. If you were to make the AWP SLIGHTLY more expensive that okay because the guy may not be able to buy nades and that will make all the difference in the world.



Counter-Strike has always been a M4/AK/AWP game and I have played it for 3 years like this. I don't want this to change. I don't know if I want to see SMG rushes in a league match. If you could have 5 terrorists with mac-10's or something rushing an m4/awper and they kill him and get the bomb down for $800 this could really sway a match drastically.



Although I am against the idea of a "Pro-mode" CS I think it might be needed now even if the community might be cut in half. If Valve wants to change the game on a whim from the extremely biased official Counter-Strike forums then okay, but don't touch the main Counter-Strike formula that works so well for league play. The Counter-Strike forums only consist of casual public players, you can't change the game from only their opinions.



I really think they should focus on fixing the bugs in Counter-Strike before trying to change the entire game structure first. The flashbang bug, you know when you're fully blind and you get flashed from behind and you're half-blind. That's not right. The new "WTF HE WASN'T EVEN LOOKING AT ME" animations glitch. The shield has to go. The "ex_interp 0.05" bug where VAC prevents ex_interp from going below 0.05 although at 0.01 the hitboxes are more properly aligned ever since they fixed the ex_interp since STEAM and 1.6. ex_interp is defaulted to ex_interp 0.1 which is inaccurate. The deagle aim is EXTREMELY RANDOM. Sometimes it's dead on accurate but sometimes its less accurate than mid-air awp. And whats with the FPS drop? A $2,000 computer can't keep 100 FPS. What's with that?



Fix the guns, dont make them cost less. Think long term, don't count out the competetive community. More and more public players are discovering competetive play every day and once you play in CAL you're hopelessly addicted. If you want people to keep playing CS get them stuck in CAL. They'll never quit the game.



Don't destroy the Counter-Strike formula.