mailbag: cs 1.5

[rizzuh]

Edited by [user="2065"] @ [time="1024198085"]

pigeon: I don't suck, but I am inconsistent. Sometimes I have perfect aim and nice mouse twitches, other times my aim is off and my mouse is a brick.



While we're on the subject, pressing tab does not determine if someone is a good or bad player unless it's something like 0/24. I'm a good player even when my aim is off: I provide information, I follow objectives, and I back up my teammates. A lot of my deaths are attributed to trying to save someone (often when they don't need saving, to be fair), I rarely cower back and even some people who I think are strong teamplayers do that often.



jaded: I'm not going to bother writing a long rant about this or even attempt to word this in a manner that is respectful. You are making an incorrect assumption that complication means teamplay.



Non-existent teamplay is a poor and worn-out excuse for bad gameplay. Torn is a crappy map because it has no consise flow, not because teamplay is required. Piranesi is a poor map because it favors the rushing terrorists over the supposedly guarding Counter-Terrorists, whom have no position to guard from, not because teamplay is required. Zoption was a stupid map because there was absolutely no cover, not because teamplay was required.



I am tired of this psuedo-elitism about teamplay. If everyone here is so hyped up about teamplay it makes me wonder why you don't actually use it more often. Rather than working at it, you expect a map to simply foster teamplay. That's the lazy try at it, and it's fundamentally wrong because all you're going to end up with is a map that just isn't fun because teamplay will not blossom without action.



The only saving grace about piranesi is that it has very cool battles because of the terrorists scope of fire. The trade-off is a CT team that is weakened by a map that introduces an artificial ambush.



Gpig20: You and only a few others were up there. The main meat of your team rushed the bombsite. We couldn't defend the objective while splintering off to kill you every single round. The CTs cannot be reactive, you should be killed before you have the chance to get that leverage and the map's layout prevents that from happening. Since the AK is easy as ass to snipe with, you can just duck there killing people on both the ground and in the area below you, which makes no sense to me.



For some reason your ability to do this lends itself to teamplay; you were fourty feet above the bombsite, so your contribution was very worthy.

[.nap]

Edited by [user="17469"] @ [time="1024198327"]

And you're making an incorrect assumption that simplicity means teamplay. There are two sides to that card. I have been playing CS long enough to formulate my own opinion about good teamplay and de_dust doesn't cut it. Why do you think CPL doesn't use dust? Any relation to its simple layout? Almost certainly.

[alex`]

CPL doesent use dust?? at all?? wow.. in my opinion dust is the greatest level in any game of any time! ive been playing it for over a year and still didnt get bored of it.,

[rizzuh]

Edited by [user="2065"] @ [time="1024198900"]

I'm assuming that teamplay means teamplay. The map and teamplay are fairly unrelated, but a lot of maps hamper teamplay by splitting the teams or making the maps confusing enough that the team cannot help you. If you don't have teamplay in de_dust that is your fault; you're probably playing with strangers and some radio aliases. You expect teamplay to magically appear? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.



I've been playing CS longer than you and I say I have had among my best teamplay experiences on dust, on both T and CT, while following objectives and using strong communication. There, neener, I've been playing longer!!!!!!!!!!!!



http://csnation.counter-strike.net/comments.php?id=3598



Where's torn? All of those maps are simple and easy to get into. None of the post-1.0 maps will be used at the CPL. They all suck. They're all poor choices. I think cliffe may be falling for the entire farce: a map that is complex on first impression is automatically better in practice.



I believe they don't use dust because of the RITD league. It might just be that it's overplayed. It is not because of its layout. The other maps, inferno and dust2 for example, are just as simple.



I forgot to mention that piranesi (or whatever) has a really nice sniper's area but it's just dominated by AK users so it's fairly wash. Which is sad, considering it's actually a good thought.

[[HOBO]dumbass]

i agree with rizzuh. i don wanna sound like a ass kisser (altho its prolly already too late) but piranesi DOES suck. its well made as far as looks go, but looks are extra credit on a map. its some ralism and then mostly playability that counts. look at dust. doesnt look all that appealing, i dono how it has to do with anything in real life, but it plays extremely well, which is why its popular. T's have ot way too easy, kinda like assault(where its fun to camp when ur a t!). anyway, as far as the upgrade goes, i dont know why they even made it. they shouldve waited a bit longer and added more stuff, before making me go look at the ur something is outdated notice. fixed a few bugs, made a few changes, and a new map for cs. woo. and for ricochet, its pretty good. not as good as cs obviously, but its all right. i dont think itll last long, but what the hell. and the F1 demo? i didnt even kno, so im off to do it now.

[Spoonman]

Edited by [user="21273"] @ [time="1024200729"]

alex.S wrote..

CPL doesent use dust?? at all?? wow.. in my opinion dust is the greatest level in any game of any time! ive been playing it for over a year and still didnt get bored of it.

It is not because CPL got bored with dust. It is because of the simple fact that CT's can defend perfectly on that map. The terrorists HAVE to pass a choke point; and there are only 3/4 of them, which are easily protected by CT's. In other words, CT's ALWAYS have an advantage, especially during clan matches. Dust is an uneven map, plain and simple. Don't get me wrong, it is fun (sometimes) when you're just playing around on a normal server, but it is absolutely atrocious for matches.

[scr0llwheel]

No problem about the CS 1.5/HL 1.1..11..1.1.3.1. (or whatever) coverage, it's not like scr0llwheel and I know "people" or have "lives."

Well said!

Nice mailbag, like usual.



Oh, yeah, teamwork is important.

[mouth]

rizzuh wrote..

Wow, let's all bow before mouth; he wants big maps that go nowhere because he is a genius. I like how I use sound and "ambushes" all the time on dust. But apparently I don't because mouth says so.

I'm sorry, we must be using different dialects of the same language. That would explain how "Sound recognition? Not a necessary skill to have when there's a grand total of 2 ways to go." could turn into "I decree that rze doesn't use sound and that i want all maps to cover 2 square miles".



The map has ONE clusterfuck of a chokepoint and an alternate route that can be covered by 1 person who can draw backup from that chokepoint. "Ambushing" on that map means getting to the bombsite .295 seconds before the other team and bomb plantings are generally rare. Don't even pretend like i'm bagging on the map for no apparent reason. What's next, adding text to a pic of Britney Spears to praise her musical aptitude?



Oh yeah, i forgot. You can find "decent teamwork" if you're playing with good people and constantly use comms. Who gives a shit? The same can be said for cs_assault and awp_map. Doesn't mean those 2 maps have any sort of depth.

Please, mouth, tell the masses what the "smart" maps are. Because I'm so sure that with your optimistic attitude, you are all for teamplay and communication. Or you just complain incessantly and suggest that some maps are smarter than others simply because it looks better in text.

Well, Mother Theresa, i'd like to suggest backalley or train, for example. I find nuke to be a decent map, and dust2 is pretty playable. Does that suit you, captain sunshine?

[rizzuh]

Sound recognition isn't required on any map, you will just be more successful on all if them if you actually listen to the damn footsteps. To act like dust isn't the same is a bit silly.



It's easy to summarize dust and sell it short. Most of the games where the terrorists and the counter-terrorists are equally matched, the "chokepoint" becomes the entire hallway, which is a fairly large point. Ambushing can be flat out rushing or patience. Once a T team secures the hall, they have three places to go (four assuming they want to fall back or have some other players stand by). How the T's gain an advantage is by catching the CTs off guard. An entire T team versus a two-man team at the sniper's nest will give terrorists a clear path to bombsite b.



It's too cliche to say dust is simplistic, probably because it is. The gameplay, however, is not some simple game of checkers unless one team is functioning incorrectly. That's CS Darwinism, not a flawed map.



I see how you can view dust in that light, but it's like blaming the wrong thing. Responsibility should be given to those players who play the game, in my opinion, incorrectly. Honestly, you're not going to see the depth [in gameplay] that I talk about on "Joe Blow's HomeLAN 25/52313 DUST ALL TEH TIEM -FREE HOT DOGS." I don't know if my server is special, but we seem to have more experienced players--or at least better ones--than we do total newbies.



I agree with what you said about decent teamwork; in fact that's exactly what I'm saying. Maps that try to fake depth by complexity in no way improve the gameplay, just the complexity.



Yes, daddy dearest, they suit me quite well!



Yay, we're the sarcasm army.

[Gpig]

The two sniper spots up on top of the castle are the two coolest spots, I had alot of fun up there but it's probably because the map is newer. I mean when people play a map thousands of times they just pop out and shoot in those certain spots, if piransi becomes overplayed it won't be long before I'll get awp'd. They even put big square holes under each snipe spot so someone can come from under the window and shoot the sniper. Oh yeah and ak, awp, same thing . Heh, I bet they didn't have those holes at first and they realized how that is like the best spot in the game(I'm at like the height of the jeepathon platform where I die if I fall off yet close enough I can kill with short bursts from an ak). The best part is that when the bulk of the team rushes down below nobody cares about the up high snipers. So the spot is really good but you can tell the mapper realized this and tried to compensate for it. I don't know if he did it or not because I've only played for about 45 minutes and most of it was T.

[zeusDgod]

[HOBO]dumbass wrote:



i agree with rizzuh. i don wanna sound like a ass kisser (altho its prolly already too late) but piranesi DOES suck.

Ok, first of all, I've come to learn that asskissing around here is like blinking or breathing; it's involuntary and necessary. So fogerabaurit.



RE: de_piranesi.



My apologies to the creator(s) because this is a BEAUTIFUL map and looks like a lot of man hours (hehe I said man hours) went into it. It owns de_dust in craziness and drug-induced hallucinations. However, it is the product of a museum tour gone wrong as far as playability goes. I don't know what brand of ganja the Valve squad was smoking upon adding this to the official maps, but mistakes are made. And layoffs followed. I assume.



RE: de_chateau, cs_havana



Chateau is a great map with awesome balance and many imaginative, yet not overdone, routes. Plus it makes me feel french when I say chateau.



Havana, is gr8 with a capital, um, 8. I love the textures and the confusion. My HUGE beef with this map is the exclusion of Cuban music. A subtle fade-in of "Silencio" by Ibrahim Ferrer and Omara Portuondo would have made me soil myself as I snuck around various dark passages avoiding detection. This is by far the biggest drawback in authenticity. I'm surprised and disgusted (mostly disgusted) with you all for not noticing this. J/k on the disgust part.



I've been thinking about this last part for years. Ok, days. Minutes! What do you all think???

[-Aragorn]

The anti cheat is a half assed attempt in my opinion. People are still cheating.

I HARDLY ever run into a cheater nowadays in CS. It's been a long time. The only time I actually see one is when he's being banned right when he joins.



I bet he's one of the people who accuse whoever is 24/5 a hacker. Looking more at his score, than his actual playing, etc.



You'd think with 1st person view cheat accusations would be much less. Unfortunately, this isn't the case.

Added @ [time="1024206926"]

Oh! btw! Any of you hear about America's Army? Going gold next month.



Going to be great. Not sure if it might replace CS for me or not. And this is saying a lot since I've been playign CS longer than I can remember (beta 3.0 era).



Oh! And it's being developed by the U.S. Army. But, they even admit it's shameless propaganda ;-). But, hey, if the Army's making it, and using our millions of tax money going to advertising for military recruitment - it's hopefully going to be good!



Check it out - www.americasarmy.com



(and yes, I know, it's just a *little* off-topic)

[zimzap]

Edited by [user="2065"] @ [time="1024207542"]

SinaC wrote..

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

btw you have no idea what you're talking about. team work is not the entire team blind rushing. sorry, try something other then pubs.

Maybe you still don't get the fucking point that you need to communicate to get your men in position to rush and counter the rushes.

Added @ [time="1024207548"]

rizzuh wrote..

I'm assuming that teamplay means teamplay. The map and teamplay are fairly unrelated, but a lot of maps hamper teamplay by splitting the teams or making the maps confusing enough that the team cannot help you. If you don't have teamplay in de_dust that is your fault; you're probably playing with strangers and some radio aliases. You expect teamplay to magically appear? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.



I've been playing CS longer than you and I say I have had among my best teamplay experiences on dust, on both T and CT, while following objectives and using strong communication. There, neener, I've been playing longer!!!!!!!!!!!!

So sad that you think dust requires no team play. (Not Rizz that other idiot)

[Max]

CS has gone down the drain with all these new lame maps and limited jumping and insane recoil....you would a trained navy seal would be able to keep his aim straight and recoil low for a few shots. CS used to be like that, but now after 2 shots your recoil goes thru the roof. It's so retarded, no one can get used to how to play the game well before they change it again and we have to learn how to compensate and make things work for your advantage...I'm probably just mad because ever since 1.4 update from 1.3 I've licked a fat nut at CS and can't play like I used to be able to. I'm just hoping that someday they'll be happy with how the game is and let us F**king get the hang of it again and be able to play like the good 'ol days.

[oReiLLZ]

Edited by [user="25858"] @ [time="1024209159"]

I like de_dust. DO YOU?