New Aztec Shots

[mouth]

Whether the T team can shoot through the bridge or not is moot, they're screwed on that account even with a NON solid one. The idea is to keep people on the CT side from firing through it, since there's absolutely ZERO cover down there for people desperate enough to take the water route. It's bad enough that those Ts have no real cover on the ground for the whole stretch, let alone without having any cover above them.



How can the snipers have had the same old advantage when the Ts at least had the option of smoking/flashing the bridge without standing in the doorway?

[UKchaos]

I'm not concerned



With respect, you should be.



The wide, open spaces and restricted cover is heaven for snipers. The ts are quite restricted because of this:



Route1. (the doubles doors)

CTs get there first, awp you to death from 2 directions. The thin wood offers little cover and the cts often exploit this by spamming through it.



Route2. (the bridge)

CTs get there first and are granted the first sniping shot. When your going over the bridge you have to watch the entire lenght of water for snipers.



Route3. (the water)

Cts wait till they see your legs and then waste you. If your lucky enough to make it to the ramp/stairs you are attacked from a 270 degree elevated platform.



Obviously Ts have plenty of chances to pick CTs off along the way, but generally speaking the odds are steeped against them.



Usually this results in both teams camping back and picking each other off over a long drawn out round. Maybe this is how you intended the map to play, but personally i prefer more options.



Is this fair, is this wrong? Please tell me how it plays for you.

[narby]

I'm not concerned because the map has been like that since beta 6.5. This isn't an exercise in layout design, it's just an aesthetic update.

I really don't see how making the bridge solid will affect things. If they can't shoot down, you can't shoot up and if they can, you can. The fact of the matter is I'm not willing to make major changes to the design of the map at this point. I'd rather make aztec2 with a stronger T layout, and keeping the CT side very similar and see how things work out with that.

[UKchaos]

Im not asking for major changes mate, just let the ts get to the chokepoints first and prehaps give them more cover. Something to encourage them to move forward and plant the bomb, it worked for dust.



Im just surprised your only working on getting the aesthetics improved when you agree the layout is bias.

[narby]

Why should they get there first? By default the majority of DE maps have the CT spawn at one of the bomb sites. Choke points will naturally happen, and it just so happens that the aztec choke points (ie the double doors) are designed to provide a block to the renderer to prevent more being drawn then is necessary.



Unwillingness to change is not the issue here. Community pressure is. No matter how much you say it has to be changed, any major changes to layout will be met with fierce reprisal from the community. If the community was more forgiving, aztec would have been changed a long time ago.

In a striaght rush the T's don't get the bomb first in Prodigy, Nuke, Train, dust2 and they only just get to A on dust if they really rush hard. It's a matter of the chokepoints rather than who gets to the site first.

This is the 3rd most popular map of any game in the world, you can't just fuck with the layout and expect people to adapt without getting a lot of complaint, I'm simply not willing to deal with hundrads of emails and complaints about how ``you fucked this map up, thanks idiotface''

This is a future issue. Maybe soon I'll do some work to give the T's an edge but right now it's not a priority.

[UKchaos]

Well i think the attacking team should be encourged to push forward, thats why i suggested they get to the chokepoint first. Subtle, nothing that would cause a backlash. Since the brush work of the spawns has changed you could just nudge the T player starts forward a few units and the CT back a few units and nobody would notice

[narby]

Ironically they are forward about 64 units or so in this build. Won't make any difference to the timing however.

[mouth]

It's called "height advantage". There's one person at site A, looking over the edge. There's another in the water. Who has the better chance for getting a kill without getting hit? The guy at site A. Hell, the people with a height advantage have a huge boon in being able to kill you before the target can even see them by shooting their feet and stomach. The underpass in dust should prove this, god knows it's been played enough. People at site A/CT bridge have every advantage while anyone in the water has jack.



If they can shoot down, yes, i could shoot up... IF i didn't have to worry about getting pegged from down the way due to the aforementioned total lack of any cover and i didn't have to deal with the height advantage. CTs in the water at the end, at the bottom of the ramp, at the stairs, above at site A, and eventually at the water after coming through the easily breachable doors...It's a mess. One less angle to get dry-rammed from is fairly noticeable in my book, considering that the door route is apparently an unsalvagable slaughter. With a solid bridge, a CT there would be forced to get out in a place that's more compromising in order to seriously attack those below, giving people in the water and/or T side a decent chance of defending themselves from him.



The CT at the bridge would also be denied the chance of chucking a gren into a sensitive part of the water from absolute safety. The Ts AT the bridge would, again, also be able to smoke and FB the bridge without standing in the doorway wearing a neon sign that says "Narby is a jackass, please AWP me while i stand impotently with a grenade in my hand". The CTs can toss grenades just the same, but i'd take that any day over what happens now.



Screw the "i'm afraid of getting emails from people who are morons" bit.You're making the map equivalent of a polished turd. Jesus, at least take those fucking crates that T pubbers like to camp in and toss them in the water.

[Paul Shuttle]

Major layout/gameplay changes in the 3rd most popular map in any game = lose. He'd end up pleasing one person, before being drowned in hate by the other couple of thousand.



Better to leave those kind of major changes for another map entirely.

[mouth]

Except, not. Unless he can make the hat trick of making a balanced map, prying cliffe's head out of his ass long enough to include it, and getting him to remove Aztec from the standard maps.



Secondly, i fail to see how it'd simply be pleasing 1 person. I'm absolutely certain that i'm not the only one who sees Aztec as a piece of shit. I'm also certain that the majority of its fans are nitwits.



What, would you be so hesitant if you thought you were going to get flooded with congratulations instead? They'd still take just as much time to download and delete as the possible future complaints that you claim are preventing the fixing of the map. Leave the map be if you don't have the time or if you're burnt out on mapping. Both are perfectly reasonable answers. Being a candyass is not.

[Paul Shuttle]

mouth wrote..

I'm absolutely certain that i'm not the only one who sees Aztec as a piece of shit. I'm also certain that the majority of its fans are nitwits.

You probably aren't the only one - But you are in the minority - hence the map is 3rd most popular. You don't get there without having a hell of a lot of fans. The same goes for everyone who says Dust is crap.

[Tofudog]

Edited by [user="28588"] @ [time="1034007143"]

k, im getting very tired of all these reptitive comments.... so ill post my own and then stop looking back...



Aztec is a great map, though very 1-sided. Not all maps have to give equal chances to both sides, thats why people switch sides halfway through



The fact is, most aztec matches are decided by who wins a single round, possibly two, on t-side. Though somewhat booring at times, its no different from some typical Q3 strategies, such as getting a 2-3 frag advantage on Q3 tourney2 and then running like hell for the rest of the match.



As far as I'm concerned, if all this remake of aztec does is fix the crickets, the lightning, and make the bridge less cfg-hackable -- then I'm happy.



As for gameplay changes, I would always welcome an aztec2: cricket resurection

[lockhart]

Dances With Bullets wrote..

Looks to me like instead of being difficult for the T's it's now damn near impossible what with having to jump over the holes in the bridge and have your movement slowed and all.

Why don't you just make a big hallway and setup the CT's with AWP's ahead of time thus removing the illusion of fair play.

i know narb would hate me for this, but.... do a google search on "de_aztec_c download." find a link. download. walk over giant bridge holes without jumping. then, don't ask narby why the CT double doors are reversed, because they won't be in the NON BETA VERSION

[Vaishino]

Dances With Bullets wrote..

Looks to me like instead of being difficult for the T's it's now damn near impossible what with having to jump over the holes in the bridge and have your movement slowed and all.

Why don't you just make a big hallway and setup the CT's with AWP's ahead of time thus removing the illusion of fair play.

You seem like an ignoramus to me, you didn't even read the rest of the comments before jumping up in protest of a non-existent issue. Now, maybe if you decided to read the rest of the posts, you might have seen that the bridge is a solid object, with texture holes in it, not actual holes in the object. You do not have to jump over the holes, and you will not fall through.

[UKchaos]

Dances With Bullets probably doesnt step on cracks in the pavement. He might fall through.