kaxman wrote..Nowhere in my post did I say that I liked blacklists. I don't really know what I think of them. You also have no idea how I play Counter-Strike, and how I feel if I do encounter someone I believe may be hacking. I am usually the last person who would ever accuse someone of cheating, and I certainly don't think that someone should be banned from playing CS because of some momentary lapse in judgement, which is likely the case for most cheaters. Stop putting words into my mouth just because you need more material to try and prove that I'm a dumb cock.
Mmm, I love qualifiers. Come out hard and say it: "I LIKE BLACKLISTS!" I imagine you spend a lot of time getting killed by cheaters and it drives you to tears. I can't imagine why you get frustrated, as is pointed out to me by any given admin in any given pub, there are thousands and thousands of Counter-Strike servers. If you're so pissed off at someone in ONE of them that you feel he needs to be removed from the pool of players everywhere on the planet, I genuinely feel sorry for you. I too feel that there are many, many players who should be blacklisted. Problem is that most of them don't cheat. They're just too fucking stupid to own computers, let alone game on them.
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Um, no one answered my first question, is there a public list of known cheat wonids?
Also rze; something is wrong with "quotes". The first portion " is MASSIVE, bigger then the csn nationlist avatar sizes. Worst of all, it doesn't have a closing ".Comment
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NuclearTeddyBear wrote..
You said that you thought what khaos wrote was a good idea. What khaos suggested would only be possible if there existed a universal blacklist. If A then B. Simple.
Nowhere in my post did I say that I liked blacklists. I don't really know what I think of them. You also have no idea how I play Counter-Strike, and how I feel if I do encounter someone I believe may be hacking. I am usually the last person who would ever accuse someone of cheating, and I certainly don't think that someone should be banned from playing CS because of some momentary lapse in judgement, which is likely the case for most cheaters. Stop putting words into my mouth just because you need more material to try and prove that I'm a dumb cock.
I also never said anything about what you would say about any given cheater. The focus of what I wrote was entirely different. I was trying to demonstrate that if a cheater in a server pisses you off enough for you to think that he should never be allowed to play the game, maybe you're overreacting just a bit. I then got off on a bit of a personal, though somewhat related, rant about dumb cocks in general, and how many of them deserve to play the game less than the worst raging myg0t.
"Momentary lapse"...you don't really believe that, do you? I can't figure out if that's naivété or a vain attempt to back up what you said right before it.
I won't touch the last sentence. I don't need to.Serious Sam wrote..
I rather like the graphic. It also doesn't need a closing quote graphic, since its sole purpose seems to be to highlight quoted portions of other comments. It fits in well with the overall design.
Also rze; something is wrong with "quotes". The first portion " is MASSIVE, bigger then the csn nationlist avatar sizes. Worst of all, it doesn't have a closing ".Comment
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Kaxman my question was different from serious sams i asked why WON didn't make a seachable DB not why there isn't one for non cal ppl and i wasn't really asking your point of view because you would appear to be a crackhead that doest know how to read.
But thanks again for trying to "cover it"Comment
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Warning: Freaking long post that you shouldn't bother to read if you don't care about WONID's and math formulas and such. If you are, go ahead, but otherwise, hold down your down arrow for a few minutes.
(Oh, and rizzuh, I kind of like the quote things, but I'd actually make them not quite so dark, though obviously darker than the text. I dunno, just a slight gamma reduction on the background color would be good for those quote markings. I won't even ask for ending quotes, 'cause I have no clue about web programming, or if it's difficult to add them in.)
Hmm, after rizzuh's response, I went ahead and sent off an email to a guy I know distantly at VALVe to ask him if he can clear this up (assuming he actually knows, and doesn't just BS me for the heck of it, heh). And another email to the folks at WON.net as well. Hopefully I'll get a decent response from one or the other. Rather than debating how rizzuh's WONID got to be so high, I think I'll just leave that one alone until I can say with 100% confidence that I've got the details from the source. As it was, I repeated what I'd read and heard from others for a while, but perhaps somewhere back there misinformation was given, I won't really know for sure until I get a response.
As far as the uniqueness of WONID's, here's an interesting tidbit that's much larger than a tidbit. A guy did a bunch of research on how latency affects online games and such, and set up a server in the process and compiled various results, some of which really had almost nothing to do with the latency questions. I'll paste the part about WONID's just for interest's sake.Unfortunately, using the WONIDs as a means of identifying unique players proved insufficient. We observed a large number of duplicate WONIDs, indicated by simultaneous use of the same WONID, or players with the same WONID connecting from highly geographically dispersed locations.
Doing quick math, you're talking about roughly 25% of players sharing WONID's, if these statistics and analysis are indeed fairly representative of the overall Half-Life server scene. So the question becomes, are these all cases of people using the same CD-key, or are WONID's not truly unique? In either case, the possibilities are quite interesting.
This duplication of WONIDs is probably due to the sharing of license keys or the use of pirate copies of the game, and so the same WONID can represent more than one user. This situation is exacerbated because the game server program does not reject multiple users with the same WONID from playing simultaneously (this occurred 493 times during the period of this study). In addition, on two occasions the WON Authentication Server seemed to malfunction, issuing all users with a WONID of 0. Although it would have been possible to modify the server to reject simultaneous duplicate WONIDs, this would not resolve the problem of different players connecting at different times with the same WONID, and so we needed to try and determine which sessions belonged to which different individuals.
The identifying information logged by the server for each player is the player's WONID, their IP address and port number, and the nickname that they choose to use in the game. Of the 14776 total WONIDs that we observed, 11612 had unique (WONID, nickname, IP address, port) tuples; we can be reasonably sure that each of these represents one unique user. Of the remaining WONIDs, we had to make some assumptions about users in order to determine their uniqueness. We assume that a unique (WONID,nickname) tuple across all sessions is a sin- gle user, and probably has a dynamically-assigned IP address or multiple access ISPs. Users tend to change their names quite often, both between and during sessions, and by looking at all the names used by a particular WONID and look- ing for common names it was possible to further isolate potential unique users. When multiple users with the same WONID were simultaneously connected we assume that these represent different players. Using these heuristics, we estimate that the 14776 WONIDs actually represent 16969 users.
One more thought. sniv's comment of:I'm sure there is a way, seeing as won comes from key, to "reverse the process"
Something you should realize here. Many mathematical processes are not reverseable. If you were to theoretically set up a system where cdkeys were translated into online identification numbers, this is how it would go. You start out with a relatively long and complex number (or alphanumeric string) of a CD-key, because you want correct keys to be difficult to guess and/or generate. Making a huge number of combinations through very long numbers accomplishes this.
Your online id, however, you want to be (relatively) small, so that server admins don't have to type in a 13-digit number when trying to ban someone.
So what you end up with is a process that turns a huge amount of possible numbers into a rather small (by comparison) set of numbers. With a 13 digit number, you have a theoretical 10 trillion different combinations. If you're making numbers out of these that are, say, at most 7 digits long, then you've lowered yourself to 10 million different combinations.
So you have 10 trillion numbers that, when you run your process on them, will convert to one of 10 million result numbers. In case it hasn't become blatantly obvious yet, there's a whole freaking lot (1 million) of different CD-keys that can get translated into the exact same online id.
This process is known to those of us who study computer science as "hashing" a number. You can take a source value and come up with a "hashed" value for storage and quick reference, but there are sometimes collisions, and you absolutely cannot determine the source value from the hashed value. If you really want, though, you could come up with the million or so possibilities, and start trying all of them. :) Good luck on that one though, heh.
Sorry to go on, but one final thought before I quit this mathematical rant about a subject that has little interest to most people (I'm interested mainly because I hope to one day be a software developer, and so these technologies are somewhat relevent to me).
If, indeed, the CD-key was hashed and turned into a WONID, instead of just having a database of known correct CD-keys, wouldn't any CD-key that you generated for Half-Life work online? Afterall, it should just get turned into a WONID though some formula, and seeing as there's relatively few possible WONID's, whatever it generated would have to be "valid."
Simply put, merely generating WONID's from CD-keys would serve no purpose, could lead to multiple uses of the same WONID by different people with different but valid CD-keys, and overall defeats the whole purpose of the WON system. Mathematical generation is the method that makes sense for the game itself to figure out if you have a valid CD-key, but a non-mathematical listing is the only method that really makes any sense for the WON servers.
Okay, I'm done, I shall go now and not return to the abodes of CSN for a few days. Okay, so that has nothing to do with this post, but I figured I'd mention that I'm going to be gone for the extended weekend, so enjoy your time without me while it lasts. :)Comment
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It's just goddamn weird when Nighthawk's posts become the only ones worth reading anymore.Comment
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I usually just skip over everyone's posts and read what Nighthawk says. Mainly because he quotes every other tidbit that is worth reading.Comment
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i blieve, we comment and comment, then nighthawk comes along n evaluates wat we have to say.....
hu r u anyways?Comment
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Edited by [user="18627"] @ [time="1041082575"]
your rounding down of 13 trillion to 10 trillion displeases me t(-_-t)Comment
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Got bored reading all the comments cut to the end to say, just get http://www.hlplayers.com and add the little metamod plugin on ya server.
You wont even notice it working in the background gathering info on the players in your server inc the WON IDs then sending it to their central database.
You can player name search as well as WON ID search which is ideal if someone comes in your server under the name of some pro player and totally owns then you look up the name and find the ID matches some dude that has been on before hacking.Comment
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Yay im on that list
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Does anyone know the site that you can search active people playing cs by WONID (like gametiger)
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Are you sure there is such a program
I only know of HLPlayers that records WON IDs and that requires the server to have the plugin like more and more are infact getting.
Even then it only updates on a map change.
Its more of a database tool than an active player search tool though.Comment
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HLSW (www.hlsw.net) has a wonid tracking ability, where it will save every wonid it sees on a server, along with every name used by the players ever seen with that id. It has a handy export to a sql database feature too, so web integration is easy.
The tfc (and possibly cs) admins over at www.bygames.com nearly all use hlsw to remotely admi nthe servers, and we tend to compile the databases together monthly to make llama tracking and identifying much easier (the database also has comments and llama tags).
Currently we have 91,927 unique id's in the system and the lowest ID in that is 15.
Kinda useless info as we dont share the database, but it shows what a tool like it can do.Comment
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-:Nighthawk:- wrote..
.... O_o anyone for a game of checkers? seems simpler
blah blah blah blah.... BLAH BLAH BLAH.... blah blah blah! blah.... blah!Comment
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