New CS, CZ Updates

[T|2i|34L]

Mad Dog McKill wrote..

BFG !!!



Is that what you wanted to say?



but seriously.. where the heck is M60?

mmmm....BFG....*drool* Yep, that's what I was hinting at.



The SAW is pretty lonesome when you click on machine guns.

[AdR3n4L1n3]

Supersonic1425 wrote..

Just drop it. They are the same size on all resolutions kthx

So was the crosshair before the updates. They just LOOK bigger when you put them in different resolutions. With your logic, why would they have to scale the crosshairs when they are the same on all resolutions? stfu kthxbai

[entRo]

Pharlap wrote..

the crappy flashlight should be removed, and nightvision should come as standard issue to every player. the 1250 price tag is rediculous.

I wouldn't remove the flashlight, doesn't do any harm, no one uses it but no reason to take it out. Alot of people I know, and myself included, use a program called Powerstrip to brighten our monitors for

darker maps.

and btw "entro", no point in making pubbers look like "theyre shit at aiming". we comprise the majority of cs players. you "pros" or "cal people" are nothing special. so you can stop preaching how "1337" you are, and how "n00b" we are.

The majority of pubbers DO have shit aim. He wanted the AK and Colt to be nerfed, just because other guns don't get used much. If he was just as good as people beating him with the AK or Colt, I don't think he'd be complaining. Sooo, I can assume he simply can't aim, since there isn't alot of complicated things you have to do with either gun. I wasn't preaching about how 1337 pros are, and how n00b pubbers are. I was simply pointing out that instead of whining about things, maybe if you improved your skill in the game, you wouldn't have anything to whine about anymore, and maybe you'd realize what you were complaining about was ridiculous in the first place. Not referring to you "Pharlap", just people that complain about things like that, in general. Though, it would be interesting to see how you'd fair in a CAL-m scrim.

added:

btw how can u call yourselves "pros" if youre only playing a third of the game - only DE maps. i thinks all maps should be played - DE, AS, CS. i mean all of the maps you "pros play look the same. they are nice and bright, with no moving platforms or anything interesting.

de_ maps are best suited for a competitive atmosphere. cs_ maps are slow moving, as the terrorists pretty much don't need to move. Defense is always easier in CS, especially since 1.4. If you put any two top teams up against each other, on say, cs_assault, I guarantee the T's would win their side by a good margin.



as_ maps can be fun but just aren't made for competitive atmosphere, either.

1) You can't control who becomes the VIP. I'm sure you'll say "BUT YOU'RE PROS LOZLZOL GG", but to have a true, fair competitive environment, randomness needs to be minimized. Alot of strategy is put behind different maps, each map with its own specific strategies. Certain players are positioned to do different things on the map, effectively they all are supposed to hold a choke point on the map, but you don't just throw your 5 players wherever you want. You look at their strengths and weaknesses and assign them to positions accordingly. If you could control which of your players became the VIP, then it would make more sense to have your most skilled "VIP player" be the VIP every round, but you can't.



2) After playing with the weapons allowed on other types of maps, I don't think anyone would choose to play a map that allowed not only less weapons, but crappier weapons for no reason.



3) Would you rather watch a match on a de_ match, or an as_ map? Games played on de_ maps are much more spectator friendly. They're faster paced, with more emphasis on strategy than as_ maps. With the number of spectators watching big event games reaching the thousands, it's important that the spectators aren't bored, or that there are spectators at all.



All the maps are nice and bright? de_train? de_comrade? de_nuke (pre-update)? de_prodigy (we don't play it anymore, though)? Even so, what's wrong with bright maps? I'd rather the game come down to skill instead of someone hiding in a dark corner and shooting you because you couldn't see them.



Should we play fy_iceworld just because it's a map? Just because maps came with the game doesn't mean they're suited for competitive play. Many aspects of the game are obviously not suited for it either (the shield?). There's enough competition between teams already, teams are always improving on de_ maps, why do we need to play cs_ and as_ maps?



As far as moving platforms and other interesting things go, that wouldn't necessarily make the game more difficult, it'd just make the game more stupid. If that's what you want, you could play Q3. Moving platforms and unrealistic things work well for Q3, but CS isn't the game to have stuff like that.

T|2i|34L wrote..

mmmm....BFG....*drool* Yep, that's what I was hinting at.



The SAW is pretty lonesome when you click on machine guns.

Does it seem like they made the para more accurate in the last update to anyone else? I was running around with it in a scrim and it seemed pretty damn accurate, even after 5 or 6 shots. Could just be my imagination though, probably is.

[lopinboy]

entRo wrote..

I've played since the betas, thanks. There's too many guns in the game for all of them to be equally useful, and why do you want them to all be equally useful? I'm pretty sure they have standard issue weapons in the army, probably because they're the best weapon given their cost. I think the MP5 needs an upgrade, the colt and AK dont need to be nerfed. What's wrong with having an all-around-good weapon? Why can't you just use them? Why do you want to use a MAC10 so badly? Couldn't you just get a MAC10 skin for your AK/Colt or something, instead of trying to force your opinion on the majority who doesn't agree with you?



The problem is you're a pubber. The problem with pubs is that alot of pubbers simply can't aim, or have really crappy aim. You just want the guns to be closer to equal because you think that will even the playing field for you. Instead of taking the time to learn to aim, and learn the game, you'd rather just have the dominant guns be nerfed so you can be closer to the top. Just because crappy guns were added to the game, doesn't mean I should have to use them. They added the elites, they've ALWAYS sucked. Should I have to use them, or have the other pistols nerfed so that they will be used? Should maps be darkened so nightvision would have a use? No.



Do you live in the US? West coast? If so, I'll play you 1 on 1, any map you choose, and I wont use a sniper rifle, or a colt/AK to show you the PLAYERS are beating you, and not the weapon they're using.

I don't use them because they are unbalanced. It's my choice, but it would be nice if people would try to use some skill at times and use something other than AK and M4. I've played 1 season in CAL and it's just like a pub to me, nothing more than M4 vs AK with a side of AWP once in a while. Sure, there's teamwork involved, but it is possible to get teamwork going in pubs. Not only that, but 5v5 is far easier than 10v10.



A lot of people in CS just can't aim, even lots of people in leagues. I'm not one of those newbs who likes 1.4 to 1.6, I prefer 1.3 and back, when running around with deagle wasn't uncommon. I can aim, quite possible faster than most, since I've sharpened my aiming skills on Q3. I want the dominate guns to be nerfed to get rid of the luck factor that VALVe keeps adding to the game. Also, why do you NOT want the other guns to be useful? It seems you've grown dependant on those 2 guns only. Each gun in the game was originally put in to have a purpose at some time, otherwise why would anyone want to download the extra 20+ megs just for worthless content?



Nerfing the AK and M4 wouldn't "balance" the playing field, in fact, it would force everyone to learn to aim. It seems however that you could careless about making the game have a learning curve that's greater than learning how to just buy a m4/ak, ammo, and armor.

[entRo]

lopinboy wrote..

I don't use them because they are unbalanced. It's my choice, but it would be nice if people would try to use some skill at times and use something other than AK and M4. I've played 1 season in CAL and it's just like a pub to me, nothing more than M4 vs AK with a side of AWP once in a while. Sure, there's teamwork involved, but it is possible to get teamwork going in pubs. Not only that, but 5v5 is far easier than 10v10.



A lot of people in CS just can't aim, even lots of people in leagues. I'm not one of those newbs who likes 1.4 to 1.6, I prefer 1.3 and back, when running around with deagle wasn't uncommon. I can aim, quite possible faster than most, since I've sharpened my aiming skills on Q3. I want the dominate guns to be nerfed to get rid of the luck factor that VALVe keeps adding to the game. Also, why do you NOT want the other guns to be useful? It seems you've grown dependant on those 2 guns only. Each gun in the game was originally put in to have a purpose at some time, otherwise why would anyone want to download the extra 20+ megs just for worthless content?



Nerfing the AK and M4 wouldn't "balance" the playing field, in fact, it would force everyone to learn to aim. It seems however that you could careless about making the game have a learning curve that's greater than learning how to just buy a m4/ak, ammo, and armor.

Why would nerfing the AK/colt force people to learn to aim? The AK and Colt are two of the most accurate guns in the game, next to the glock and the sniper rifles. Using a MAC10 doesn't require you to have good aim, you just have to hope, because the accuracy of that gun is crappy.



I think what you're trying to say is that people spray too much and get kills, instead of using the accurate first shots of the gun to get kills. There will always be spraying, it's bad in some situations, good in others.



I'm not trying to keep the other weapons from being upgraded, I just don't see the need to nerf the AK or Colt, because there's no reason why people shouldn't use those guns. Of course in leagues you saw AK and Colt dominance, because there isn't really any reason to use any of the other guns. Why make a reason? I'd like to see the MP5 upgraded, but that's all. The other weapons have always been useless (except for the P90), so I don't really know why you want them to have a need.



If you think leagues are alot like pubs, you probably played in CAL-o/im or OGL, or something equally crappy. There can be some teamwork in pubs, yes, but pubs never have the developed and practiced strategies that upper teams use. They don't use fakes, they don't have save rounds, or eco stacks, rich/poor buying, and spots are rarely held by the CTs at the beginning of the round. They figure "the enemy is over there, so I should just go to them!" instead of realizing the T's have to come to the CTs to win.



If people want to use the Colt or AK, and just spray, fine with me. Learn to deal with them. The only reason I would feel the AK and Colt needed to be nerfed, and other guns upgraded, was if I was playing fy_iceworld or something equally stupid.

[Pharlap]

entro:

in every game ive played, the flashlight is useless. if it were to do its job of lighting up an area you were pointing instead of lighting you up like an xmas tree, then i wouldnt be saying that. NV as standard issue would solve that. and would make a seemingly useless item to buy not so useless after all. yes increasing gamma is an old school way of going past the games brightness settings, but im sure there are ppl out there would dont want their game looking TOO ugly. and many have their monitors calibrated to the correct gamma and white/black points (myself included) so wish to avoid changing the settings around. but since your arguments are from a leet perspective (:p) having NV as standard issue wouldnt hurt match play would it? and would give the pubbers a new toy to play around with :)



how id fair in a cal-m scrim? well ive played a few clan matches, nothing special really. got booted out straight away for "cheating". oh well, not doing that again any more. yes im top of the scoreboard almost all the time on pub games, but i play for fun now. i have other things to do than play games. its not one of my lifes ambitions.



you say AS + CS maps are not suited for match play. yeah i knew i was treading in deep water when i mentioned those maps. i personally am tired of DE maps, and yes they do have a lot of [different] tactics to them. i personally prefer AS maps as the ultimate team based strategy. and great fun to watch too as a dead spectator. yes CS maps are a bit boring to watch, but more true to life situation. CS maps were the original maps when cs started. if valve were to tweak both AS and CS maps for better pub play, maybe some leagues can have a go too. i mean variation doesnt hurt anyone does it? you guys must get bored of playing the same DE maps over and over again.



i think dark parts in maps is good. just somethign which adds to the tense feeling of CS. same with interesting map mechanics like moving platforms, doors, lifts (maybe even a silly driveable vehicle) etc. could add a lot to match play. dont know how you can say those things are unrealistic. since cs is a semi realistic game. i just hope valve doesnt pander to league players too much. for the above mentioned reasons.



i can snipe with the mac10, so its not that innacurate as you say, and its amazing up close. mac10 has the fastest rate of damage of any other weapon in cs.

[Thortok2000]

"The other weapons have always been useless (except for the P90), so I don't really know why you want them to have a need."



Uh...maybe...just MAYBE....so they...uh...won't be useless anymore??



Gee, what a thought.

[lopinboy]

Thortok2000 wrote..

"The other weapons have always been useless (except for the P90), so I don't really know why you want them to have a need."



Uh...maybe...just MAYBE....so they...uh...won't be useless anymore??



Gee, what a thought.

Funny how people never think about that Thor. It's like people just refuse to use any ounce of skill what-so ever these days or have any other weapons in the game be useful.

[entRo]

Pharlap wrote..

entro:

in every game ive played, the flashlight is useless. if it were to do its job of lighting up an area you were pointing instead of lighting you up like an xmas tree, then i wouldnt be saying that. NV as standard issue would solve that. and would make a seemingly useless item to buy not so useless after all. yes increasing gamma is an old school way of going past the games brightness settings, but im sure there are ppl out there would dont want their game looking TOO ugly. and many have their monitors calibrated to the correct gamma and white/black points (myself included) so wish to avoid changing the settings around. but since your arguments are from a leet perspective (:p) having NV as standard issue wouldnt hurt match play would it? and would give the pubbers a new toy to play around with :)



how id fair in a cal-m scrim? well ive played a few clan matches, nothing special really. got booted out straight away for "cheating". oh well, not doing that again any more. yes im top of the scoreboard almost all the time on pub games, but i play for fun now. i have other things to do than play games. its not one of my lifes ambitions.



you say AS + CS maps are not suited for match play. yeah i knew i was treading in deep water when i mentioned those maps. i personally am tired of DE maps, and yes they do have a lot of [different] tactics to them. i personally prefer AS maps as the ultimate team based strategy. and great fun to watch too as a dead spectator. yes CS maps are a bit boring to watch, but more true to life situation. CS maps were the original maps when cs started. if valve were to tweak both AS and CS maps for better pub play, maybe some leagues can have a go too. i mean variation doesnt hurt anyone does it? you guys must get bored of playing the same DE maps over and over again.



i think dark parts in maps is good. just somethign which adds to the tense feeling of CS. same with interesting map mechanics like moving platforms, doors, lifts (maybe even a silly driveable vehicle) etc. could add a lot to match play. dont know how you can say those things are unrealistic. since cs is a semi realistic game. i just hope valve doesnt pander to league players too much. for the above mentioned reasons.



i can snipe with the mac10, so its not that innacurate as you say, and its amazing up close. mac10 has the fastest rate of damage of any other weapon in cs.

If youwere playing a team that accused you of hacking and simply kicked you instead of playing it out, I'm just going to assume they were a CAL-o team or worse. I'm not trying to insult your skill, I havn't seen you play, just saying that sort of thing is really looked down upon. You may have other life ambitions, so do I, just because someone is in a league doesn't mean they play 24/7, though many do.



For the flashlight and NV thing, I wouldn't mind having the flashlight removed and NV becoming a standard loadout for all players. I wouldn't use it, but still, it wouldn't hurt me any so why not? Agree with you there.



AS and CS maps being used in match play would be fine with me, as long as they weren't thrown into the standard CAL rotation. If there was a seperate division, or league created for those types of maps, then fine, but many if not most of us want nothing to do with those maps competitively.



I do get tired of playing CS every now and then, but I don't get tired of the maps themselves (with the exception of de_train). Each team is different, and when you're playing you don't play against the map, you're playing against the players. If I were playing the same teams over and over, that would get boring fast, but thankfully there are tons of NA teams to play. New de_ maps suited for match play would be nice, but it's not a big concern of mine.



Moving platforms, lifts, vehicles, that stuff. I like the way the gameplay is now, and vehicles themselves would really change the way the game is played. Plus, there isn't enough room on the maps for vehicles. Moving platforms and stuff, I can only see that going bad. I've seen people be crushed by the doors closing on de_nuke, trapped by the doors on de_prodigy, and other things. If the engine was more stable, then maybe, but if there was just a platform moving around for no reason except to be annoying, I'd say no thanks. Match games are alot more quiet than pub games, people walk alot instead of running everywhere, use silencers and such. Moving platforms and lifts would only make the game louder.



I know the game shouldn't be suited for match play, but I wish they would add/change things for the league community that wouldn't hurt pub games. If they changed CS now to specially cater to the wims of league players, that wouldn't be a good thing for the common player, and I do realize there are alot more public players than league players. No one's asking for us to be #1 in Valve's eyes. That's why there's the hope of a pro-mode, which won't happen anyway. :]



That's good that you can snipe with the MAC10, but does it really make sense to snipe with a MAC10 instead of a rifle?

Thortok2000 wrote..

"The other weapons have always been useless (except for the P90), so I don't really know why you want them to have a need."



Uh...maybe...just MAYBE....so they...uh...won't be useless anymore??



Gee, what a thought.

I didn't say there was a problem with updating the guns, I just don't see why the AK or Colt need to be nerfed. The MP5 really needs an upgrade in my opinion, but you can only have so many different guns that are actually useful. Right now, as far as league play goes, we have the colt, ak, famas, galil, awp, deagle, usp, and glock that are actually useful.

lopinboy wrote..

Funny how people never think about that Thor. It's like people just refuse to use any ounce of skill what-so ever these days or have any other weapons in the game be useful.

How is using an AK or Colt unskilled? I can see now what you meant by using other

weapons would show more skill, but that's only because those weapons are harder to use. Why buy a gun that's harder to use if you could just buy an AK or colt? Like I said, if you want to use a MAC10, go ahead, doesn't bother me, but not everyone is playing the game against themselves like you are. When I go into a pub it's usually a 20+ player server, because every once and awhile, running around aimlessly killing masses of people is fun to me. I don't buy a TMP or UMP to try to test myself and use more skill, I just use a colt or AK, or a para if I'm feeling invincible.



When you're trying to beat someone else, I don't know why you'd want to make it harder for yourself. If you're trying to see how good you can be, then yea, I understand your standpoint.



I'm so tired of these long responses, and typing "AK or colt" is starting to piss me off! :[

[lopinboy]

entRo wrote..

How is using an AK or Colt unskilled? I can see now what you meant by using other

weapons would show more skill, but that's only because those weapons are harder to use. Why buy a gun that's harder to use if you could just buy an AK or colt? Like I said, if you want to use a MAC10, go ahead, doesn't bother me, but not everyone is playing the game against themselves like you are. When I go into a pub it's usually a 20+ player server, because every once and awhile, running around aimlessly killing masses of people is fun to me. I don't buy a TMP or UMP to try to test myself and use more skill, I just use a colt or AK, or a para if I'm feeling invincible.

M4 and AK require the very minimal of skill. They have far to little recoil for the amount of damage. Not only that, but they fire extremely fast for the amount of dmg they have. M4 is by far easier to use than AK, because M4 can effectively be used in the air and on a ladder with hardly any lose to accuracy. Don't believe me? Test. Play nuke and fire m4 while on the ladder at sometime. I guarantee you'll hit someone enough times in 10 shots to kill them (ladder to ground or ladder to wall).



Like I said, you buy M4 and AK if you don't feel like using skill. Spam friendly weapons that need to be nerfed. This is suppose to be a game of skill, not "Run around with M4 and AK and spraying people to get free kills"-Strike.

When you're trying to beat someone else, I don't know why you'd want to make it harder for yourself. If you're trying to see how good you can be, then yea, I understand your standpoint.

Like I said, just nerf the AK and M4 and it would put skill back into the game. Putting skill into the game makes the game less random and easier for people who can actually aim and get kills without spraying their full M4/AK clip.

I'm so tired of these long responses, and typing "AK or colt" is starting to piss me off! :[

Then don't respond. I'm on a mission to inform every CS player that M4 and AK are far to easier and they should be using other weapons if they want to call themselves skilled. Anyone who calls themselves "skilled" and can only get a 1:1 ratio or better with a M4 or AK is sadly fooling themselves. Not only that, but shesh, if they are going to nerf the AWP, then the freakin M4 and AK need to get it as well. Get rid of the dominant guns. Hopefully next patch they implement some nerfs on these guns, make others better, and change the money system some. Make the better guns harder to get, instead of this 2nd round AK/M4 crap we see. If you die with AK and more expensive, you should be hurting next round unless you got at least a kill and completed the objective.

[Pharlap]

lopinboy wrote..

M4 and AK require the very minimal of skill. They have far to little recoil for the amount of damage.

with that i have to agree with. the colt at least. it has a pathetically small recoil. and is extremely easy to use. the AK does require a lot more recoil control and is truely a mans weapon the colt is like in real life, a very accurate and powerful killing machine. the AK is also kind of true to life with a large bullet causing a massive recoil but is accurate enough to snipe at short distances.



the only other difference between the AK and colt in terms of damage is the AK needs 1 shot to an armoured head to kill, while the colt needs 2. the first shot leaving the victim with a few percent HP left ofcourse.

[0marTheZealot]

AK/M4 do require a lot of skill. The other guns simply negate skill. Who wants to shoot a gun that spreads out so much on the first shot? It doens't test your aim.



AK/M4 aren't easy to use at all. If it's easy, everyone would be able to kill fast and efficently. It takes time and practice to do so. Sure, they may require less skill than other guns, but they are by no means nub-friendly. The other guns simply don't allow skill to shine through. The first shot is wildly inaccurate in many guns, and that right there ruins any prospect of using it.

[entRo]

Edited by [user="134563"] @ [time="1084094815"]

lopinboy wrote..

M4 and AK require the very minimal of skill. They have far to little recoil for the amount of damage. Not only that, but they fire extremely fast for the amount of dmg they have. M4 is by far easier to use than AK, because M4 can effectively be used in the air and on a ladder with hardly any lose to accuracy. Don't believe me? Test. Play nuke and fire m4 while on the ladder at sometime. I guarantee you'll hit someone enough times in 10 shots to kill them (ladder to ground or ladder to wall).



Like I said, you buy M4 and AK if you don't feel like using skill. Spam friendly weapons that need to be nerfed. This is suppose to be a game of skill, not "Run around with M4 and AK and spraying people to get free kills"-Strike.



Like I said, just nerf the AK and M4 and it would put skill back into the game. Putting skill into the game makes the game less random and easier for people who can actually aim and get kills without spraying their full M4/AK clip.



Then don't respond. I'm on a mission to inform every CS player that M4 and AK are far to easier and they should be using other weapons if they want to call themselves skilled. Anyone who calls themselves "skilled" and can only get a 1:1 ratio or better with a M4 or AK is sadly fooling themselves. Not only that, but shesh, if they are going to nerf the AWP, then the freakin M4 and AK need to get it as well. Get rid of the dominant guns. Hopefully next patch they implement some nerfs on these guns, make others better, and change the money system some. Make the better guns harder to get, instead of this 2nd round AK/M4 crap we see. If you die with AK and more expensive, you should be hurting next round unless you got at least a kill and completed the objective.

Okay, well just keep informing people that they should use harder guns that don't reflect their skill instead of using a low recoil gun, that does plenty of damage, that actually shows a person's aiming skills. Being on a ladder and firing a colt dramatically increases the recoil, I don't know what you're talking about. Even if it was still accurate, so what? The fact that you can even climb a ladder and shoot a rifle at the same time is unrealistic, why are you complaining about the weapon spread on a ladder and not the ladder itself? Jumping, up close, yea you'll hit someone.. because you're up close. Try jumping with a colt and hitting someone far away. Won't happen.



Anyone that can aim decently SHOULD be able to kill another person easily with a rifle, why should it be harder? Get someone who can hit headshots 70% of the time, and of course they'll kill most people in a pub server. What's wrong with that? They have good aim, why should they need to use a crappier gun that takes AWAY from his skill? Essentially, what you are saying is the worse the weapon, the more skill it takes to get a kill. In some situations, yes, it takes better strategy and movement skills, but not aiming skills, and aiming is of more importance in a pub than strategy.



Let's say this is UT, and we're using a gun that has 0 recoil. You choose to use a flak cannon, and he kills you most of the time because he has distance on you. Does that mean they have no skill? No, that means they can aim better than you can, or you're choosing to use a crappier weapon, which is your own fault. Shooting an innacurate gun at someone, while your aim sucks so your crosshair isn't even on him, and then having the bullet hit, is NOT skill, and it doesn't make you talented. Using an accurate weapon, firing at someone with your crosshair on them, and hitting, is in fact, a skill. Don't know why that's a hard concept to understand.



First people complain the awp takes no skill, now they're complaining about the AK/Colt? Pathetic.

[Pharlap]

Edited by [user="3256"] @ [time="1084136382"]

0marTheZealot wrote..

AK/M4 do require a lot of skill.



and



AK/M4 aren't easy to use at all.



then



Sure, they may require less skill than other guns

thats what were talking about. requiring less skill is in other words - by definition, easier :)

entRo wrote..

Let's say this is UT, and we're using a gun that has 0 recoil. You choose to use a flak cannon, and he kills you most of the time because he has distance on you. Does that mean they have no skill? No, that means they can aim better than you can, or you're choosing to use a crappier weapon, which is your own fault. Shooting an innacurate gun at someone, while your aim sucks so your crosshair isn't even on him, and then having the bullet hit, is NOT skill, and it doesn't make you talented. Using an accurate weapon, firing at someone with your crosshair on them, and hitting, is in fact, a skill.

people shouldnt even start to compare quake/ut with CS. they arent even in the same league CS. the type of "skill" required is much different. i would have to lean towards quake/ut (as a long time quake/ut play0r), that they require higher skill (hand-eye coordination wise) than CS currently does :)

[entRo]

Pharlap wrote..

people shouldnt even start to compare quake/ut with CS. they arent even in the same league CS. the type of "skill" required is much different. i would have to lean towards quake/ut (as a long time quake/ut play0r), that they require higher skill (hand-eye coordination wise) than CS currently does :)

Won't argue with you there. I was just using the Q3 comparison because CS doesn't have any 0 recoil guns like Q3 does. Shooting in Q3 is pure skill because there's no random recoil bullet pattern. If we all agree that 0 recoil is closer to skill than random recoil, than wouldn't a lower recoil gun require more skill to use than a gun that has higher recoil? It's not that the guns that have higher recoil are easier to use, but they, like someone else said, negate skill.