Pentagon Hatches Fake World of Warcraft Terror Plot

[imported_Whiskey]

Re: Pentagon Hatches Fake World of Warcraft Terror Plot

I have to disagree with calling this "fearmongering". Everyone has their own definitions of course, but to me, fearmongering is taking something that is very unlikely to happen, and having the media spin it with huge, disasterous headlines making it seem almost inevitable. An example for me are the supermarket tabloids you see in the checkout line, or websites saying that the new supercollider in Europe that got activated last week would create a black hole that would destroy the world.

The way this article was written, this was simply someone giving a presentation to military officials about a threat/method that agencies are currently overlooking, and should pay more attention to because there is reasonable potential there.

Taking off our shoes to be X-rayed at airports, or being restricted to carrying only small bottles of liquid would've seemed laughable and called fearmongering before all the 9/11 and "shoe bomber" stuff happened...but then some clowns actually went and showed that there was real danger there. If something ever does happen, and warnings are ignored, then everyone wants to point fingers later on. It's one thing to make everyone panic, but it's another to make them aware of what can happen...to me, this article is an example of the latter.

[Eagle101]

Re: Pentagon Hatches Fake World of Warcraft Terror Plot

QFT! :thumbsup:

I would like to double that QFTx2 especially the last paragraph Whiskey amazing post.

[signa]

Re: Pentagon Hatches Fake World of Warcraft Terror Plot

reminds me of when they said that Battlefield2 was being used to recruit terrorists.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPNBeM-aDjg[/media]

[imported_Will]

Re: Pentagon Hatches Fake World of Warcraft Terror Plot

ROFL

Heres a rock band convo

Ok. Were gonna attack these songs with our "power chords" and "Phat Beats" and "Drummer" Make sure you hit "blue" with your "stick" and with ending "bonuses" we "blast" the drums with "Random attacks" From our "Drumsticks"

Wow your right. I think my rock band drums are gonna be attaked! Who are we gonna call?

[CaptainKirk]

Re: Pentagon Hatches Fake World of Warcraft Terror Plot

Good analysis, Whiskey.

[TheEn|gma]

Re: Pentagon Hatches Fake World of Warcraft Terror Plot

I have to disagree with calling this "fearmongering". Everyone has their own definitions of course, but to me, fearmongering is taking something that is very unlikely to happen, and having the media spin it with huge, disasterous headlines making it seem almost inevitable. An example for me are the supermarket tabloids you see in the checkout line, or websites saying that the new supercollider in Europe that got activated last week would create a black hole that would destroy the world.

The chances of terrorists using WoW to communicate is fairly unlikely, and the Pentagon taking this sort of action only increases people misconceptions that games are not a good thing for kids and people in general.

The way this article was written, this was simply someone giving a presentation to military officials about a threat/method that agencies are currently overlooking, and should pay more attention to because there is reasonable potential there.

Taking off our shoes to be X-rayed at airports, or being restricted to carrying only small bottles of liquid would've seemed laughable and called fearmongering before all the 9/11 and "shoe bomber

There is MASSIVE difference between communicating in a video game and literally attempting to carry out such things. We all say that were going to kill someone if we get annoyed at times? Does that mean that I should be arrested for that? That comparison doesn't scan.

If something ever does happen, and warnings are ignored, then everyone wants to point fingers later on. It's one thing to make everyone panic, but it's another to make them aware of what can happen...to me, this article is an example of the latter.

It's an example of being so blind, and having to monitor everything. What the hell ever happened to civil liberties? The UK isn't the best for them either. CCTV cameras on every lamp post but listening to every single conversation in game, IM, phone calls, texts etc. Is ****ing ridiculous, it just takes one step from complete surveillance to something much worse.

"Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither." - Benjamin Franklin

Frankly the paranoia of the leaders in the USA knows no bounds, and with the media amplified absolutely anything they get it's a surprise there hasn't been any more foolish scares.

reminds me of when they said that Battlefield2 was being used to recruit terrorists.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPNBeM-aDjg[/media]

Was one of my thoughts as well.

[Vreki]

Re: Pentagon Hatches Fake World of Warcraft Terror Plot

The way this article was written, this was simply someone giving a presentation to military officials about a threat/method that agencies are currently overlooking, and should pay more attention to because there is reasonable potential there.

Taking off our shoes to be X-rayed at airports, or being restricted to carrying only small bottles of liquid would've seemed laughable and called fearmongering before all the 9/11 and "shoe bomber" stuff happened...but then some clowns actually went and showed that there was real danger there. If something ever does happen, and warnings are ignored, then everyone wants to point fingers later on. It's one thing to make everyone panic, but it's another to make them aware of what can happen...to me, this article is an example of the latter.

That method is not WOW, or even online gaming, but the entire Internet.
Do you think Oh say can u c a bunch of newbies is harmless fun? Read this and think again: http://howto.helpero.com/howto/Hide-...Images_70.html, it is a potential tool for terrorists.

They are arguing for the right/need to monitor everything, and not only for direct threats or obviously encrypted messages, but common sentences that they think contain secret messages. Besides of the impracticality of this, do we really want to allow that?

If the want to monitor specific suspects then they can get a warrant and monitor whatever communications they have.

[=98=]

Re: Pentagon Hatches Fake World of Warcraft Terror Plot

The chances of terrorists using WoW to communicate is fairly unlikely, and the Pentagon taking this sort of action only increases people misconceptions that games are not a good thing for kids and people in general.

Not to be a party pooper, but prior to 9/11, what do you think the people thought of the chances that:

Al-Qaeda terrorists would learn to fly Boing 747's, hijack 4 of them and then destroy two of the worlds greatest landmarks.

I suspect had you asked that, many people would have said, very unlikely. My point being that, however unlikely, it still may happen and if it did, you'd be glad the research saved possibly thousands of lives.

[Iwantcable]

Re: Pentagon Hatches Fake World of Warcraft Terror Plot

Not to be a party pooper, but prior to 9/11, what do you think the people thought of the chances that:

Al-Qaeda terrorists would learn to fly Boing 747's, hijack 4 of them and then destroy two of the worlds greatest landmarks.

I suspect had you asked that, many people would have said, very unlikely. My point being that, however unlikely, it still may happen and if it did, you'd be glad the research saved possibly thousands of lives.

That could be said about an infinite number of things. Unfortunately we don't have infinite resources, so we have to determine which ones are the most probable. IMO - WoW terror is not too probable.

[=98=]

Re: Pentagon Hatches Fake World of Warcraft Terror Plot

I don't think they'd invest money in it unless there was a really convincing argument. Governments hate spending unless it's absolutely necessary.

[Shawn Zipay]

Re: Pentagon Hatches Fake World of Warcraft Terror Plot

I don't think they'd invest money in it unless there was a really convincing argument. Governments hate spending unless it's absolutely necessary.

You must be thinking of a different government then.

[Iwantcable]

Re: Pentagon Hatches Fake World of Warcraft Terror Plot

lol ^.^

[imported_Whiskey]

Re: Pentagon Hatches Fake World of Warcraft Terror Plot

That method is not WOW, or even online gaming, but the entire Internet.

[snip]

If the want to monitor specific suspects then they can get a warrant and monitor whatever communications they have.

Again, to re-iterate a couple points:
a) Much of the Internet, IM, phone lines, etc are already monitored, and a lot of plots have already been uncovered and stopped. It's getting harder for terrorists to use those methods to communicate, so they need to look for new ones that aren't monitored. The professor is suggesting that games should be considered to be looked at, because they are places that are somewhat hidden away from conventional view so they currently provide a safe place for terrorists to communicate, and they provide a natural "cover" for code-speak due to the strange descriptions often used in those games.

b) The monitoring they're talking about is looking at the public chat in these games, similar to public posts on sites like Facebook that everyone can read. It's open and viewable to everyone who has the game, so there is no need for warrants.

..

I understand where some people are coming from, not wanting to feel like every aspect of their lives are being monitored, like in the book/movie "1984", and I agree to a point. But at the same time, I think some people are being a bit naive as to just how many threats/plots are going on at any one time in the world - it's massive. Most of them, the general public doesn't even hear about (which probably helps keep people from panic, but at the same time makes people think things aren't that bad). Yes, some of these plotters are too incompetent to actually carry out an actual attack, but that's a huge risk to take by ignoring them.

In "Western-ized" governments, we trust that there will be oversight and checks & balances to keep our rights from being eroded too much. It's up to us to pay attention to what's being done, and if we don't agree, to vote out those who are in power. But while they do govern, we put them in charge of protecting us.

As the saying goes, "freedom isn't free", and although nothing is ever for sure, in every area of life we have to make some sacrifices to increase our chances of staying safe. It's one thing to go off on your own and take risks...usually you're the only one who will get hurt. But in the case of terrorism, it more often affects large numbers of people, and those who want 100% freedom in their lives do not have the right to leave others vulnerable and put them in danger.

The world is an increasingly dangerous place, and terrorists don't care about civil liberties. It's just not realistic anymore to expect total freedom in every area of life unless you're off living by yourself in the wilderness away from other people. After something happens, it's too late to look back.

[Vreki]

Re: Pentagon Hatches Fake World of Warcraft Terror Plot

Again, to re-iterate a couple points:
a) Much of the Internet, IM, phone lines, etc are already monitored, and a lot of plots have already been uncovered and stopped. It's getting harder for terrorists to use those methods to communicate, so they need to look for new ones that aren't monitored. The professor is suggesting that games should be considered to be looked at, because they are places that are somewhat hidden away from conventional view so they currently provide a safe place for terrorists to communicate, and they provide a natural "cover" for code-speak due to the strange descriptions often used in those games.

Communicating via public means is 100 years old news. If they need a professor to tell them that then they are beyond incompetent.
Nobody is arguing that it is not possible to use WOW and other games to spread evil plans, but that does not justify total surveillance.

b) The monitoring they're talking about is looking at the public chat in these games, similar to public posts on sites like Facebook that everyone can read. It's open and viewable to everyone who has the game, so there is no need for warrants.

Thats is a sign that the laws are from a time when monitoring all public activities was impossible.
I would probably also be legal to have satellites track everybody movement and keep it in a huge database, because nobody ever foresaw the possibility.
But it is still a gross invasion of the citizens privacy.

In Denmark we have specific laws against correlating databases with personal information because as they say, the whole is more than the parts.

We even have an agency, the Danish Data Protection Agency, that oversees that nobody violates these rules about storing and managing personal information.

In "Western-ized" governments, we trust that there will be oversight and checks & balances to keep our rights from being eroded too much. It's up to us to pay attention to what's being done, and if we don't agree, to vote out those who are in power. But while they do govern, we put them in charge of protecting us.

No, a government is not free to do whatever it pleases between elections. there are still laws restricting them.

As the saying goes, "freedom isn't free", and although nothing is ever for sure, in every area of life we have to make some sacrifices to increase our chances of staying safe. It's one thing to go off on your own and take risks...usually you're the only one who will get hurt. But in the case of terrorism, it more often affects large numbers of people, and those who want 100% freedom in their lives do not have the right to leave others vulnerable and put them in danger. After something happens, it's too late to look back.

I see your quote and raise with:

The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either.

I am sure the source is familiar to most Americans.
There is a large jump from demanding 100% freedom and to allowing the state to monitor everything. Learn from history and see that in the end this has alway been used against the citizens it was supposed to protect. The old East Bloc is an obvious example, but you could also just look at the FBI under Hoover.

[imported_Whiskey]

Re: Pentagon Hatches Fake World of Warcraft Terror Plot

There is a large jump from demanding 100% freedom and to allowing the state to monitor everything.

[snip]

No, a government is not free to do whatever it pleases between elections. there are still laws restricting them.

I agree, but no one is suggesting that everything be monitored. Doing so would be impossible anyway, given the resources needed. The Ben Franklin quote about freedom vs. security, although very catchy, is too broad and too often used out of context to refer to any level of restriction/regulation people want to complain about. By very definition, whenever you make something more secure or more protected, you take away some level of freedom. Yes, if you trade all of your freedoms for security, you're basically in a dictatorship/prison, but that's not what this story is talking about.

I also agree that a (legitimate) govt is not free to do whatever it pleases, but that's not what I suggested. A govt tries to take steps that it deems necessary to protect the people. It should operate within current laws whenever possible. But over time that will both require writing new laws/rules, and will sometimes result in them trying to bypass current laws. That's why there are oversight agencies and committees to watch over this and put a stop to it if it goes too far. What I'm saying is that if these watchdog groups fail, and the people feel the govt has gone to far, then it's up to them to vote both the govt and the people in those oversight groups out. Most modern "free" nations have learned from mistakes of the past and have systems in place such as the one above to prevent gross abuse of power or dicatorship-type govts from taking hold.

I would also suggest that it's easy for countries that haven't been large targets of attack to have different policies than those at higher risk. Once something actually happens, then opinions and priorities often change significantly. I'd also say that much of the opposition to some of these policies are more due to the way they were implemented and the attitude behind them, rather than the policies themselves.

At any rate, much of this is being blown out of proportion. This was a conference presentation and a suggestion. It hasn't been made policy, nor has millions of dollars been spent on it. He's not saying that there are huge numbers of terrorists everywhere using games...just that games are a place that has potential to be used for a variety of reasons and a place that may not have been considered by law enforcement in the past, so he's bringing awareness to it. The next steps would be studies to see just how widespread this activity is, and what the cost vs. risk would be of monitoring it.