Squadjumping is too abused

[Terroser]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

Sounds like you should be playing counterstrike!

See how silly this "go play game X if you don't agree with me" line is?

lol you are the guy who want accept this :hmm: tactick and adept.
maby you must play CS the gameplay is not so fast like BF2

[Hidus]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

lol you are the guy who want accept this :hmm: tactick and adept.
maby you must play CS the gameplay is not so fast like BF2

Get it through your thick little skull: I squadjump. I do it fairly regularly. You have to do it to compete vs other squadjumpers. It's very easy. It doesn't take any special skill to do.

Doesn't mean I think it's a good game mechanic though, which is what this thread is discussing.

[Penci|]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

Sounds like you should be playing counterstrike!

See how silly this "go play game X if you don't agree with me" line is?

No, what my statement meant was this. There is this game called America's Army that already has everything you are asking BF2 to be. So why not go play that game instead of trying to change BF2. So a double rolleyes back at you.

[Hidus]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

No, what my statement meant was this. There is this game called America's Army that already has everything you are asking BF2 to be. So why not go play that game instead of trying to change BF2. So a double rolleyes back at you.

Wait can you explain that one more time because I didn't get it the first two times. Such an "advanced" train of thought you got going there.

[Auto-ER-]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

The purpose is to simply get 1 guy past enemy defenses then you have effectively got your entire team past, regardless of who holds what flags. Take a look at a map like iron gator, you get 1 MEC guy on board the carrier and *boom* the entire MEC team is on board even though they have yet to take a flag. And that is on a pub server with little-to-no organization. In clan matches it's much more dramatic because they can practice it until it becomes second nature.

The key word you are missing here is IF. If a guy makes it to a flag, and IF he caps the flag, the others will spawn there. But you think that the rest of the team should just sit on the shore waiting to see if he can take the flag to spawn there? Or maybe they should wait till their squadleader is able to make it on board?

[Penci|]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

Wait can you explain that one more time because I didn't get it the first two times. Such an "advanced" train of thought you got going there.

Wait, can you be a bigger tool? Probably not.

[Hidus]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

The key word you are missing here is IF. If a guy makes it to a flag, and IF he caps the flag, the others will spawn there. But you think that the rest of the team should just sit on the shore waiting to see if he can take the flag to spawn there? Or maybe they should wait till their squadleader is able to make it on board?

errr.... you don't need to take any flags to squad bomb. You merely need to get on shore/on the boat/past the enemy front lines. That's it. If you can take a flag then you don't need to spawn on SL because you can just spawn on the flag.

Oh noes! I said "go play AA" and the bad man made fun of me!

:cry:

[=IMO=PFCBerkeley]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

All the people are asking for is an OPTION in the current game to disable squad hopping. Yes AA doesn't have squadhopping, but I also find it to be a far inferior game in many aspects. No I don't want a completely realistic game, that isn't what I play games for. Just because I think that a tactic that is in the game is not something that I want to do doesn't mean that I'm going to go quit the game. I like that BF2 has the ability to spawn on the SL, it makes for a much better game overal, BUT I don't like that people (in MY OPINION this means that you don't have to agree with me here) abuse that option to squad bomb. That is the ONLY thing that I really dislike about the game, so you want me to completely change games over one relatively small thing that I don't like about the game?

I don't care about squad hopping while pubbing, who cares about pubbing? I do however like to play in competitions and squad hopping is something that dominates clan tactics at the moment, and I don't see that changing (especially with a lot of the responces here). I just don't enjoy it and do not see how it is a grand tactic at all. You can do what you want in pubs and in your clan matches, that isn't any of my buisness, I just want to be able to do what I know quite a few players want to do, and disable it. It isn't easy to moniter in game while in a match even with battlerecorder though it can be done, having the option to not allow it would allow us to better play the clan matches that we want to. I don't see a problem with that at all, and until you can tell me why asking for the OPTION to change that is a horrible thing then that isn't going to change.

[ACE4U]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

I will jump from one squad to another when my squad leader belives his job is to fly a jet all round or spawn in an uncappable base. If a squad leader is close to capping a flag, I will join them if my SL is a knuckle head. I will even start my own squad in the hopes someone will join and assist with the taking back of flags(which sometimes they do and sometimes they dont)

[WarGimp]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

You're missing the point entirely. The purpose of squadbombing is, the squadleader gets to a flag, or close, and everyone instantly spawns on him and takes the flag as fast as possible. So ok, the SL isn't on the flag, but everone else in the squad is, grenade/C4, dead, find SL, kill him. Using tactics and being a skilled player doesn't make you exempt from losing confrontations. It all goes both ways, and like I said, is only as effective as those countering it. If the other team can stop your assault than the tactic isn't as useful as if you are the victors, obviously. I find that racing a HUMVEE into the back of Karkand, dropping off one or two guys at a couple different flags is MUCH more effective than a squad bombing one flag. Nothing throws defense off more than spreading it too thin, too fast.

Wow. You're advocating Squad hoppin and your tactical discription of it... um... kinda sucks.

This is what you do:
First, hook up with your mates on Vent/TS so you've got communications reguardless of squads. At the start of a round, everyone makes themselves an SL and dashes for flags. Whenever you die, you check to see which of your many SLs happens to be on/near a flag. Spawn on him. If you've got a largish squad on/near a flag, you leave the squad (right after spawning) and make a new one. Any/every time your squad is threatened and/or you are on/near a flag, you make a new squad. Any time you and your SL die, you instantly leave your squad and join a new one.

Impact on gameplay:
- Squads become liquid. Any surviver becomes a spawn point. In many cases, you'll have several spawn points in the same location to choose from.
- Defenders have 15 seconds at any given time to find and kill ALL/ANY players that happen to be in the area. After 15 seconds, all bets are off and you're going to be flooded again. (BTW, I often DO play defence... it's lonely and unapresiated, but it's gotta be done).
- Squad structures become meaningless. There's no focus on keeping the SL alive. What's the point of keeping your SL alive if you can just leave and make your own squad?
- Tactical movement into good position also becomes meaningless since 90% of the time, you can just spawn right back into the action with no work on your part.

A fundemental flaw in some folks' assumptions in this debate is that just because I say I'd prefer to see squad hopping removed, I don't do it.
Wrong!
If needed, I hop like an SOB.

It's NOT a matter of me not being able to do it, or refusing to do it. Rather, I've had much more FUN working in a stable squad where folks aren't hopping or cycling. You see smarter play where the SL knows he's the focus of the squad and plays to that role (ei, he avoids getting killed) and the squad backs him up (medics make sure he gets revived when he dies, other grunts help guard him, etc).

Again, I'm seeing NO logical rational coming from the hopper supporter crowed above or beyond what I laid out myself. As far as I'm concerned, I've laid out the best arguments in favor of the current system... but I don't feel they outweigh the positive impact it would have on gameplay if it were removed.

I'll quickly adress a couple points before hitting the submit button:

"If they didn't want it this way, they'd have removed it"
The same could be said about the various places where you can get behind the archetecture of various maps. Those points have been there since the game was released and are rather well known. Yet they haven't removed them... thus, by that argument it must mean that it is intentional to allow clipping exploits. No, I don't mean litterally... I'm pointing out the basic flaw in the argument.
Also, even Demize (of Dice) was suprised to learn that the squad system is used this way. As with noobtoobing, they just weren't aware of the problem because they tend to play the game "as intended". It takes us createnous masses to find things like this to exploit and abuse. Now that they are aware of it, it might be consitered for patching out... if they feel it's warrented and their priority list allows it.

"Only noobs whine about it"
This isn't true. I've seen plenty of people with skill who also feel that the game would be improved if squad hopping was limited. Even if it was true, noobs really are the most important element of the player base. They are the ones that grow the community and ensure continued support. Like it or not, that is a fact.

"The game is nerfed enough already"
I think it's great that BF2 is a living project that's constantly improved via community feedback. If this issue has enough strength behind it to justify the change, implement it. Working towards a better game is a cool thing. There has been some changes that I personally don't really dig (I want my BH guns back! Gimmie some desent ones on the skycow to balance it), but since this living model of post release support exists, I remain hopeful that un-nerfs may occur through rational discussion and community support.

"STFU crybabies"
I agree. Pointless crying is... er... pointless. There is a BIG difference between that and having a rational discussion. SO, if "STFU" is all you have to offer, prepair to be ignored, laughed at, and dismissed as a crybaby yourself or as a smack-tard. Leave the *thinking* to those members of this community that can.

Jeez... this post grew.
Excuse my rambling in an attempt to cut to the meat of the matter.

[Auto-ER-]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

Wow. You're advocating Squad hoppin and your tactical discription of it... um... kinda sucks.

This is what you do:
First, hook up with your mates on Vent/TS so you've got communications reguardless of squads. At the start of a round, everyone makes themselves an SL and dashes for flags. Whenever you die, you check to see which of your many SLs happens to be on/near a flag. Spawn on him. If you've got a largish squad on/near a flag, you leave the squad (right after spawning) and make a new one. Any/every time your squad is threatened and/or you are on/near a flag, you make a new squad. Any time you and your SL die, you instantly leave your squad and join a new one.

My tactical description sucks? haha, yea ok, for one thing I am talking to the one guy that has been talking about squadbombing (a particular tactic related to squad hopping usually involving suiciding so be at a strategic location almost instantly), and capping strategic flags by having a squad leader get close then everyone spawns on him and takes the flag down, not random squadhopping like you are.

Thanks for you uninsightful insult though.

[WarGimp]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

Thanks for you uninsightful insult though.

It wasn't ment to be an insult. I mearly commented on the fact that your discription of how to squad hop didn't really show how it's used to maximum effect.

Rather than being all e-peen about the issue, how about adressing some of the other points I raised? I'd be more than happy to see you bring up some valid justification.

How about we leave the posturing at the door and make a reasonable attempt to have a discussion here?

[Penci|]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

errr.... you don't need to take any flags to squad bomb. You merely need to get on shore/on the boat/past the enemy front lines. That's it. If you can take a flag then you don't need to spawn on SL because you can just spawn on the flag.

:cry:

Yeah I was right, you are 12.

[Auto-ER-]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

Rather than being all e-peen about the issue, how about adressing some of the other points I raised? I'd be more than happy to see you bring up some valid justification.

- Squads become liquid. Any surviver becomes a spawn point. In many cases, you'll have several spawn points in the same location to choose from.

Having been in real combat, I'll say from experiance, the battlefield is fluid. Anything can happen and plans change by the second. Leadership changes as people die, I saw this first hand when our CSM got shot in the head by a sniper, next day, new CSM on the field.

- Defenders have 15 seconds at any given time to find and kill ALL/ANY players that happen to be in the area. After 15 seconds, all bets are off and you're going to be flooded again. (BTW, I often DO play defence... it's lonely and unapresiated, but it's gotta be done).

It goes both ways.

- Squad structures become meaningless. There's no focus on keeping the SL alive. What's the point of keeping your SL alive if you can just leave and make your own squad?

As mentioned before when a squad leader dies, next man takes his place.

- Tactical movement into good position also becomes meaningless since 90% of the time, you can just spawn right back into the action with no work on your part.

I don't not believe DICE intended for the mobile spawn point to be only a means of avoiding spawncamping. I would think that it IS so you can spawn on your squad leader to stay with your squad and fight as a team. To encourage squad interactions, and learning how to move together and stay together, and finally get back together to fight as a unit instead of " sorry Jimmy, you died, you have to start at the beginning of the map, walk across the whole thing, and get back to us, oh **** we were all killed, nevermind". As far as random players joining random squads and hopping back and forth, it is just a more lonewolf using of the same principle. Having a full squad spawning on a squadleader working togehter as a whole, or having random people spawning on a squad leader of a not full squad doesn't make any difference.

All in all, having a smart squadleader that hides and avoids getting killed to provide a mobile spawn point near the action, or having a group of people rotating in and out of squads based on who's alive near the action, is the same means to an end. Random players joining squads that are near a fight isn't the coordinated effort that I feel we are discussing. It is almost irrelevent if one more person spawns on a random squad near a fight. And what about players that stay lonewolf, die and then see that they can spawn nearer the action by joining a squad? In order for the whole join a squad near fight, leave squad, create squad thing to work, you need more than random people (though not always), and if your team is working together well enough to coordinate and maintain a fluid movement through a map, than more power to you, you'd probably win anyway.

[WarGimp]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

Much more betta, Auto. Now we're getting into something useful.

- Squads become liquid. Any surviver becomes a spawn point. In many cases, you'll have several spawn points in the same location to choose from.

Having been in real combat, I'll say from experiance, the battlefield is fluid. Anything can happen and plans change by the second. Leadership changes as people die, I saw this first hand when our CSM got shot in the head by a sniper, next day, new CSM on the field.

Well... "Reality" arguments never go far. Your claims of seeing real combat don't really wash or make your judgement any more valid than the next guy's. This ain't a slam... just underlining the point that this is a game and as such, all the players are on equal footing in terms of being able to comment on it AS a game (assuming they have the communications skills to get their point across, that is).

That said, by your own admission it took a full day to replace your CSM. Unless someone was field promoted, it's safe to assume that he had to come from somewhere. Thus, he had to be moved up through secured and/or hostial territory. That movement is an important part of a real battlefield, as I'm sure you know.

- Defenders have 15 seconds at any given time to find and kill ALL/ANY players that happen to be in the area. After 15 seconds, all bets are off and you're going to be flooded again. (BTW, I often DO play defence... it's lonely and unapresiated, but it's gotta be done).

It goes both ways.

Only if you assume that everyone is doing the same thing(s). Remember, the majority of pub players out there are not connected via TS or Vent. If they have voice, they are relient on the in-game system. This creates an unbalance in favor of a handful of players and against the majority. That's a problem IMHO.

- Squad structures become meaningless. There's no focus on keeping the SL alive. What's the point of keeping your SL alive if you can just leave and make your own squad?

As mentioned before when a squad leader dies, next man takes his place.

Only in a cycling situation. The title of the thread uses the term "squadjumping". We also have to acknowlage that it's common for a single squad to suddently become as many as 6 with any surviving player becoming a spawn point. If this was the intention of the system, why didn't they just implement it so you could spawn on any player any time?

- Tactical movement into good position also becomes meaningless since 90% of the time, you can just spawn right back into the action with no work on your part.

I don't not believe DICE intended for the mobile spawn point to be only a means of avoiding spawncamping. I would think that it IS so you can spawn on your squad leader to stay with your squad and fight as a team. To encourage squad interactions, and learning how to move together and stay together, and finally get back together to fight as a unit instead of " sorry Jimmy, you died, you have to start at the beginning of the map, walk across the whole thing, and get back to us, oh **** we were all killed, nevermind"

This is the exact behaviour that is undermined via squad jumping. I'd love it if staying and working together was the key to BF2, but it's simply not. As I mentioned in a previous post, the most effective way to own a map is to have 6 lonewolf SLs that head off in different directions and all other players are incedental. When you die, you change squad to whichever one happens to be closest to the action.

All in all, having a smart squadleader that hides and avoids getting killed to provide a mobile spawn point near the action, or having a group of people rotating in and out of squads based on who's alive near the action, is the same means to an end.

Not quite the same. I'm very often that SL that does the SL role. I'm the guy that hides near flags or in strategic positions and allows his grunts to spawn off him while avoiding direct combat if at all possible. I do it 'cause it's fun and I often end up with very good squad mates who play the game as you discribed above.

However, when I'm doing the stable SL thing and I get killed, I have to move back up into position. That takes some doing as you have to figure the best route, avoid being bombed, watch out for mines, etc, etc. There's gameplay there.

It's easier to just spawn hop.

Again, if Dice had ment for spawning back into the action to be easier, they could have done several things to support it. They could have allowed to you spawn on any player (or possibly only any surviving player in your squad), the could have auto-assigned the SL position to the next surviving member of the squad, or if you really want to ramp up the action allow spawn on any flag, friendly or not (yes, this is a silly one, but it would inarguably ramp up the action).

Since none of these options were implemented, it's my observation that the SL position was intended to be the heart of the squad. Where he is is where the squad is (or should be). Keeping him alive is/should be a major priority because if he gets fragged, you've squad's position is effectively re-set.

Hehe... I'm hoping this makes sense.