Squadjumping is too abused

[=IMO=PFCBerkeley]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

Well said Wargimp, hopefully the thread will continue with this type of discussion rather than the name calling and such we had earlier.

[Terroser]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

Well said Wargimp, hopefully the thread will continue with this type of discussion rather than the name calling and such we had earlier.

I got a better idea.

Why not giving points for the SL for every two spawnend players!!
in a whole match you can easly get 10 teampoints

Problem solved

[Auto-ER-]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

I understand where you are coming from, as far as keeping the cohesion together and playing the role you get, whether it is SL, or SM. My "problem" is when people call it an exploit. An exploit gives you an advantage over others, this does not. It doesn't because anyone can do it. I can't even see how this is even a problem, or something that is causing someone such distress. I mean hell, we could all line up colonial style and take turns shooting each other, but that wouldn't be very fun, but it would eliminate the need to think about tactics, and better ways to win.

Well... "Reality" arguments never go far.

No they don't, but the whole keeping a stable squad structure is trying to bring a realism feel to the game in a way, so by that logic anyone that debates that squadhopping is not realistic, is kind of a hypocrite if they are getting revived after an arty strike. Just splitting hairs there.

Only if you assume that everyone is doing the same thing(s). Remember, the majority of pub players out there are not connected via TS or Vent. If they have voice, they are relient on the in-game system. This creates an unbalance in favor of a handful of players and against the majority. That's a problem IMHO.

Exactly my point as to why squad hopping is not a viable threat. If it is only a few guys doing it, it isn't nearly as effective and can be countered. If the other team is organized to the point of communicating, and knowing how to counter, it is not a threat and can be dealt with, if not, they were screwed from the start. So you have a squad of 6 get somewhere, now you have 6 squad leaders (provided there is slots to make six squads), now that group of six SL's is depending on smurfs to fill their ranks and think, and move as they want to achieve victory, not normally going to happen. If you have enough clan members there, they'll all be on TS/vent anyway, so reguardlss of what "squad" they are in, they are playing together. Hell when we play we usually have 6-15 guys spread between all the squads from the get go, so no matter what's going on we know, we'll work the whole team, not just a squad. If you're on a server and see [pwnZ0rZ] at the front of 20 of the 32 people on teh other teams names, you're probably facing a lot bigger problems than squad hopping.

However, when I'm doing the stable SL thing and I get killed, I have to move back up into position. That takes some doing as you have to figure the best route, avoid being bombed, watch out for mines, etc, etc. There's gameplay there.

Or you could leave the squiad an rejoin to be back at the fight. I play to play, not walk halfway across Zatar to get back into a fight.

As far as when my clan and fellow regs on FCW play, we choose specific jobs, and missions, and I don't really see any need for us to hop from random squad to random squad, as we generally have a purpose.

[WarGimp]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

I got a better idea.

Why not giving points for the SL for every two spawnend players!!
in a whole match you can easly get 10 teampoints

Problem solved

Er... can you imagine the padding that would evoke? Not an optimal solution, IMHO.

Since I do shortchange myself pointwise when I'm playing dedicated SL by hiding instead of rushing, I did think about the issue a little.

The best idea I came up with is to reduced the combat points the SL gets by half (one point per kill), but add half of the average points for the sqaud to his team (or mabe command?) score. This would encorage SLs to avoid combat and rather work as the intended heart of the squad letting his gunts do the work while he does the thinking.

I can see a couple issues with this too, though.

[Terroser]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

Er... can you imagine the padding that would evoke? Not an optimal solution, IMHO.

Since I do shortchange myself pointwise when I'm playing dedicated SL by hiding instead of rushing, I did think about the issue a little.

The best idea I came up with is to reduced the combat points the SL gets by half (one point per kill), but add half of the average points for the sqaud to his team (or mabe command?) score. This would encorage SLs to avoid combat and rather work as the intended heart of the squad letting his gunts do the work while he does the thinking.

I can see a couple issues with this too, though.

and how do they want to stats pad it then!!
wait every dam 15 seconds??

[smythBSD]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

and how do they want to stats pad it then!!
wait every dam 15 seconds??

Player A is the squad leader. Players B through F are the five SM that spawn on Player A. Player A receives points for the spawning players. Players B through F leave the squad and Players G through K join up and spawn on Player A. Prior to them spawning, Players B through F suicided and waited for Players G through K to spawn on Player A, leave the squad, then join it themselves. This cycle continues until Player A has a BSR score big enough to have its own zipcode. In short, easily paddable and very bad idea.

[WarGimp]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

I understand where you are coming from, as far as keeping the cohesion together and playing the role you get, whether it is SL, or SM. My "problem" is when people call it an exploit. An exploit gives you an advantage over others, this does not. It doesn't because anyone can do it. I can't even see how this is even a problem, or something that is causing someone such distress. I mean hell, we could all line up colonial style and take turns shooting each other, but that wouldn't be very fun, but it would eliminate the need to think about tactics, and better ways to win.

Effective squad hoping is dependent on a 3rd party application running outside the game (3rd party VoiP). Since not everyone is going to be connected via outside VoiP, this is where I see the term "exploit" fitting in. If you can't do something completely within the game itself, then there's something being exploited.

The definition of "exploit" isn't something that only some people can do (anyone can clip-exploit or stats pad). The definition is "Wasn't intended by the developers and can give an advantage (and can give you an advantage if other's aren't aware of it )". Within that definition, squad hoping fits (damn, that came out Yoda-esque).

Previously, I always refered to it as a psudo-exploit and lost the psudo just because I'm sick of typing it. :p

No they don't, but the whole keeping a stable squad structure is trying to bring a realism feel to the game in a way, so by that logic anyone that debates that squadhopping is not realistic, is kind of a hypocrite if they are getting revived after an arty strike. Just splitting hairs there.

And thus, you'll never hear me attempt to use the realism argument. The whole consept of spawning is rediculous at it's heart... but I like it as a mechanic.

Exactly my point as to why squad hopping is not a viable threat. If it is only a few guys doing it, it isn't nearly as effective and can be countered. If the other team is organized to the point of communicating, and knowing how to counter, it is not a threat and can be dealt with, if not, they were screwed from the start. So you have a squad of 6 get somewhere, now you have 6 squad leaders (provided there is slots to make six squads), now that group of six SL's is depending on smurfs to fill their ranks and think, and move as they want to achieve victory, not normally going to happen. If you have enough clan members there, they'll all be on TS/vent anyway, so reguardlss of what "squad" they are in, they are playing together. Hell when we play we usually have 6-15 guys spread between all the squads from the get go, so no matter what's going on we know, we'll work the whole team, not just a squad. If you're on a server and see [pwnZ0rZ] at the front of 20 of the 32 people on teh other teams names, you're probably facing a lot bigger problems than squad hopping.

The instances where hoping becomes a "problem" (notice the quotes... means I don't take as that big a deal) are like... say... you're commanding. You see a squad moving to take a flag. You drop arty in their direction. You know you've killed their SL outright. It doesn't matter.
OR
You are trying to defend a position. You mow down a bunch of guys, but one escapes. In all likely hood you prolly bagged their SL (just going by numbers). Suddenly, there's 6, then 8, then 16 guys charging your position. You're boned. Fricken defence. This makes playing D even less desireable in an already attack focused game.
OR
Your team has left a CP or two undefended while pushing the front forward. One guy manages to slip through your defences. The commander can usually arty that lonewolf before he manages to do any harm, but since he's on VOIP with his buddies, they spawn on him and you lose the flag before the arty falls.
OR
You've simply got a bunch of clanners spawnhoping like crazy kicking the crap outta a bunch of pubbers who get ticked and leave the game. When a friend of theirs asks about BF2, they get grouchy about it. That friend doesn't buy the game and the community missed a chance to grow.

Or you could leave the squiad an rejoin to be back at the fight. I play to play, not walk halfway across Zatar to get back into a fight.

Inevitably some noob who doesn't know a thing about how to play SL winds up in the role and doesn't even understand to concept of leave/rejoin. It's especially annoying when you're trying to play with non-clan friends.

As far as walking... WTF are you doing walking?? Find a vehicle! If there isn't one handy, dig in and defend for a bit while waiting for one to respawn. Chances are very high no-one will be holding the point ('cause they all rushed off with the vehicles).

As far as when my clan and fellow regs on FCW play, we choose specific jobs, and missions, and I don't really see any need for us to hop from random squad to random squad, as we generally have a purpose.

It's great that you've got some guys that will back you up and work well together, but understand that the vast majority of players don't. Beyond the clanless players posting here, there's also a HUGE (and useually forgoten by the community) number of casual players that may be skilled, but will never hook up to a TS server or even post on/read a forum. Should their gameplay be undermined since they aren't as l33t (read "geeky") as us community folk?

Consitering the nature of the issue, I think we can agree on something.
Having the ability to turn off spawning while dead as a server option (like FF on mines) would nicely solve the problem and make everyone

[Auto-ER-]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

Effective squad hoping is dependent on a 3rd party application running outside the game (3rd party VoiP). Since not everyone is going to be connected via outside VoiP, this is where I see the term "exploit" fitting in. If you can't do something completely within the game itself, then there's something being exploited.

The definition of "exploit" isn't something that only some people can do (anyone can clip-exploit or stats pad). The definition is "Wasn't intended by the developers and can give an advantage (and can give you an advantage if other's aren't aware of it )". Within that definition, squad hoping fits (damn, that came out Yoda-esque).

The bolded part is where what I am saying about it not being a threat. If it isn't being used by more than a few clan members. You said it vaguely yourself,

It's great that you've got some guys that will back you up and work well together, but understand that the vast majority of players don't.

Suddenly, there's 6, then 8, then 16 guys charging your position. You're boned. Fricken defence.

This situation I have seen very rarely, and requires the kind of cohesion that would win the round anyway. Funy enough, once I had a guy spawn on me because he noticed I was in a good spot, he joined, spawned, left and started his own squad, then started spamming messages for others to join our squads so we could take out their rear bases...nothing, no one else joined mine, and like one guy joined his. Another thing I was thinking of on my way home from work is, when you're in game, you have no idea of the enemy teams make up. You can assume they are squad hopping, but maybe that one guy that got by the commander, wasn't alone to begin with, you can only assume they are using this practice. Anyway time to log in and get some killin' done.

[MrBrown]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

The built-in command system is cruical for good teamplay on public servers. It even works when the people don't have any microphone for VoIP. The best public matches I had was when the commander gave good orders and there were a handful of squadleaders following these orders, even if they were told to defend a point for some time. If clan players would play commanders and fixed squadleaders on public servers instead of squadhopping/cycling/whatever, the overall gameplay quality would increase vastly.

Back to that option again, I'd like to see two settings, both different from the current unclear situation:

(1) Disable the squadscreen while dead

(2) Leave it as it is, but make the last surviving squadmember a spawnpoint if the squadleader dies automatically, removing the leave/join SL rotation stuff, clicking around on these buttons doesn't have any gameplay value and corrupts the command system

[imported_bigpappa]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

who cares, its just a game

[WarGimp]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

The bolded part is where what I am saying about it not being a threat. If it isn't being used by more than a few clan members. You said it vaguely yourself,




This situation I have seen very rarely, and requires the kind of cohesion that would win the round anyway. Funy enough, once I had a guy spawn on me because he noticed I was in a good spot, he joined, spawned, left and started his own squad, then started spamming messages for others to join our squads so we could take out their rear bases...nothing, no one else joined mine, and like one guy joined his. Another thing I was thinking of on my way home from work is, when you're in game, you have no idea of the enemy teams make up. You can assume they are squad hopping, but maybe that one guy that got by the commander, wasn't alone to begin with, you can only assume they are using this practice. Anyway time to log in and get some killin' done.

Very few people cheat, but we don't consiter it ok and we do hope that thie methodes will be countered. Just because not that many people do it, doesn't mean that it's not worth fixing. Depending on the server and players you deal with, you are more likely to see squad hoping at higher levels of compitition.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, I've suggested the ultimate solution that can't be picked appart.

Allow "No Spawning While Dead" to be a server settable option.
Done and doner. Everyone would be happy.

The route we've taken up to this point is useful tho. We've managed to get some good yappin in on both sides and have exposed the inner workings of the issue rather nicely.

That's kinda cool.

[Auto-ER-]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

You guys must play on some doodoo servers.

That was directed at the if players did this comment :)

Question, how would you implement the "No spawning when dead" (which, you can't sspawn anyway..youre' dead :P ). You mean make it to where they can't select a spawn point? Or can't leave their squad? What if the spawnpoint you started at is taken? Now you can't choose a spawn point till you're alive? but you cna't spawn till you select a point.

Another side is, what if you join a server, and join a squad, and the SL turns out to be a douche sniper sitting on the hill in the middle of nowhere, or decides to get ina plane? Or dissconnects? You can't entirely remove the ability to move from squad to squad.

[MrBrown]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

LOL "Don't spawn while dead" really is a good one
Well this can happen in the heat of the discussion...

Of course "Disable the squadscreen while dead" was meant!
So you cannot do the leave/join stuff.
You should still be able to choose your class and a normal flag to spawn at - or your squadleader, if you are NOT the squadleader yourself.

And you can choose whichever squad you want if your squadleader acts stupid - while you are alive!

[WarGimp]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

LOL "Don't spawn while dead" really is a good one
Well this can happen in the heat of the discussion...

Of course "Disable the squadscreen while dead" was meant!
So you cannot do the leave/join stuff.
You should still be able to choose your class and a normal flag to spawn at - or your squadleader, if you are NOT the squadleader yourself.

And you can choose whichever squad you want if your squadleader acts stupid - while you are alive!

Doh!

Apparently there's too much blood in my cafine system.
:p
Thank you for stating what I ment in rather well formed terms.

[SKIDM4RK]

Re: Squadjumping is too abused

Its an effective tactic that clans who communicate well can master, and use to their advantage.

Now, instead of dealing with 4-5 guys in your face, you have to pay attention to EVERY soldier on the battlefield. It requires you to be more aware, to kill every guy taking a flag, don't let 1 get away or 5 will be back in your face.

Its the definition of teamplay. And once again, another thread that falls into my standard: "I've been pwnt by _________, therefore _________ is overrated/an exploit/etc.." Get better than your opponent at it, shooting and aim are still required, and probably more important than in the '42 days.

Very well said...