The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

[TheGhost]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

I think the J-10 is a bit out of hand, but as I posted earlier in this post. G-Forces would level the play I think.

I mentioned G's and energy bleed earlier in this thread, the problem is I just don't see DICE attempting anything that involved in the game, and I fear that even if they did it would be horribly botched up and take half a dozen patches for them to make it respectable. I still think the most realistic answer is to up the agilitiy of the other fighters and give them the same air to air missle dodging capabilities of the J-10,

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

You were saying F-15 is the greatest air superiority fighter, Im saying it isnt (anymore). Stating that its the best just because it hasnt been downed doesnt say all that much if we think about it. What has been its opposition?

[Paas]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

If you'll try a J-10 versus J-10 dogfight in 1.21 it is currently perfect dogfighting mechanics. AA missiles hit, but not if the pilot is in the apex of a max turn with good airspeed. It's very balanced dogfighting. Basing the new flight model off anything less than the current J-10 will render the airplanes impotent, and dogfighting far too easy. A2A missiles are absolutely perfect in regards to J-10, and that's something I'd like to preserve.

...how are they perfect when they will miss the J-10 with a lock simply by him turning? Isn't that what you want to eleminate first and foremost?

However, be aware I did not ask you for some alternate solution to completely rework all of the AA again. Of course you're well within your rights to post it, but it's a little ways off the focus of the thread.

I know you didn't ask for it. Yet, you weren't specific in what you "did" ask for. Heck, as far as I can recall...:

Like Scotty, I am waiting to hear what is so horrible about my idea.

For example:

"I think it's a bad idea because _____ will _______ because _______."

Fill in the blanks Princess, that's all I ask.

...all you asked for where some ideas. Granted it wasn't direct at me. Yet, Princess didn't seem like she wanted to be bothered with it, so I took up the slack; gave you those ideas, and what did I get in response from you? " Overly complex..."

I actually scrolled a couple of times to make sure I didn't overlook anything. Yet, that's all you gave me.

And I also agree, infantry need to be part of AA superiority net, which they are currently. Playing BF2 is like a game of monopoly. As you capture those points you lay down those luxury hotels (AA sites) and you expand your AA grid. The more often planes pass through a stretch of your property, the more often they get popped.

Oh cmon'!? You're actually going to sit are your computer and type with a straight face that static A.A. is of "ANY" threat to a skilled pilot?!?

...because that's what this scenario of monopoly is based off of. Hell. I'm not even a "Pro" pilot and I have "NO FEAR" of static A.A., with or without the help of my team. You know why? I know where it is at all times, my cannon can engage it before it engages me. Simple.

The only thing on the ground that Jets have a legit reason to fear is Mobile A.A. Vehicles and grounded jets. Mobile A.A. because it's, well, mobile. Grounded jets because, well, they can become ungrounded and cause some issues if you're not paying attention.

However don't mistakenly suggest I can attack infantry whenever I want, because that is false. I kill infantry for three main reasons 1) they were next to a vehicle 2) they were at a popular vehicle spawn point 3) they were under a UAV scan/at a flag being captured (all of the above reasons are the fault of the infantry, mind you).

...or they are sitting on your counter device, static Anti-Air, which you really don't have to worry about because of said reasons above.

No no no. Maybe you were able to attack them because you have been playing this game from day one and know the "Hot Spots" on every map? Naaah'. Wait! I know what it is!? Maybe it's because I am capable of attacking infantry every few seconds, you're a better pilot than me, thus you're able to attack infantry every few seconds?

I'm gunna' go with that one.

Past that I just kill vehicles and airborne craft. Planes move at 1000mph, and unless you've got a 100 inch widescreen projector monitor those little soldiers are tough to spot when they're running through the brush. As such, giving infantry "portable AA launchers without making them a box" would really just be giving them an advantage over a vehicle that is limited to a hardcap of two per team.

:|: ...

First. My perspective on shoulder fired Anti-Air is that it would only be effective while a Jet was "inbound" on your position for a bombing run. It would only have an engagement range of 150-200m. Unless you're just outrageously cocky, and feel as if the entire map is a "free fly" zone, you should be ok.

As for the "hardcap" concept. Give me a break. The Jet is the single most dominate object in the game. This doubles and triples on maps without Mobile Anti-Air to pester the darn things. If you ask me... I think Jets should have to land to rearm and repair. They should also lose all "rader" ability vs. ground units UNLESS they are spoted by UAV or Teamates. Fighters should also "NOT" have Bombs. If you want to offer ground support, put cannons on the ground or protect your bomber.

The fighter Jet shouldn't be the only vehicle that takes absolutely "NO" level of teamwork to use effectively (hell no vehicle should operate effectively without teamwork); which is true if you're talented enough.

To say fighter pilots ignore each other is true of some people, but not all...

Which why I said "most"...

However if they are, and are playing purely for points, then they're useless any ways.

How are they useless? They attribute a vast amount to the loss of tickets for the enemy force. I wouldn't call them anything close to useless. The only downfall to their mindset is that flags run the possiblity of never being capped.

The good pilots, take the other aircraft seriously and deal with them when convenient. Past that, and with such a poor attitude, they shouldn't be wasting their teams airplane resources.

Hmmm.. I don't know. Carpet bombers push 100+ points a round. Apparently they aren't "wasting" the resource. Not that I condone their actions (I don't). They do have the right mindset though given the structure of BF2. It's all about rank, do what's needed to bolster that rank (No... I don't agree with this common mindset either).

{WP}Paas

[TheGhost]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

...how are they perfect when they will miss the J-10 with a lock simply by him turning? Isn't that what you want to eleminate first and foremost?

No, that is exactly what is perfect and needs to be kept, it just needs to be expanded to the other planes. Keep in mind that it isn't just turning, it's turning as hard as possible at max speed... this is important. It is important because it means that if you are careful you can still score hits if you are wise about your timing, you have to wait for the right opportunity. Also, this missle dodging only seems to apply to air to air, the surface to air missles can still track a J-10 through a tight turn and will hit if the J-10 doesn't have flares. Expanding the A2A dodging ability of the J-10 to the other fighters would be ideal because it would still let the ground pounders counter air craft, but it would prevent air craft from insta killing one another. Dogfighting would become a mix of carefully timed missle attacks combined with skillful cannon fire, which is exactly how it should be in my opinion.

[GlowSticky]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

I'm down for this. By the way, do you have a link to your crazy AA vid?

[Paas]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

No, that is exactly what is perfect and needs to be kept, it just needs to be expanded to the other planes. Keep in mind that it isn't just turning, it's turning as hard as possible at max speed... this is important. It is important because it means that if you are careful you can still score hits if you are wise about your timing, you have to wait for the right opportunity. Also, this missle dodging only seems to apply to air to air, the surface to air missles can still track a J-10 through a tight turn and will hit if the J-10 doesn't have flares. Expanding the A2A dodging ability of the J-10 to the other fighters would be ideal because it would still let the ground pounders counter air craft, but it would prevent air craft from insta killing one another. Dogfighting would become a mix of carefully timed missle attacks combined with skillful cannon fire, which is exactly how it should be in my opinion.

Eh. I can live with that for gameplay issues as long as it doesn't transfer over to S2A.

I still don't think the turning should be a sure thing though. Even if a J-10 is in full turn there should still be a 25% chance a missile will hit him if he doesn't have flares.

In other words, if you unload your entire payload of 6 missiles on a turning jet with a lock 1 missile should register a hit. Another missile should have it's chances bumped up to 75%, yet should still be capable of missing.

...or heck, for the sake of simplicity, just make it a 30% chance of connection during a full turn.

{WP}Paas

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

...how are they perfect when they will miss the J-10 with a lock simply by him turning? Isn't that what you want to eleminate first and foremost?

J-10 isn't immune to AA, they've got to be in a full on maximum speed turn, this isn't intiated immediately, thus you do have a window to take them out J-10 versus J-10.

Overly complex..."

I actually scrolled a couple of times to make sure I didn't overlook anything. Yet, that's all you gave me.

Sorry, but you forget that DICE has to turn these suggestions in to reality, making them too complex makes them more likely to fail, and more likely not to even be attempted in the first plane.

Oh cmon'!? You're actually going to sit are your computer and type with a straight face that static A.A. is of "ANY" threat to a skilled pilot?!?

...because that's what this scenario of monopoly is based off of. Hell. I'm not even a "Pro" pilot and I have "NO FEAR" of static A.A., with or without the help of my team. You know why? I know where it is at all times, my cannon can engage it before it engages me. Simple.

You're wrong Pass, and I'm talking from experience here on the ground and in the air. I didn't get my deaths in v.1.0-1.12 just from crashing, that's for sure. I'm not claiming an idiot is going to kill me, nor am I claiming every pilot is skilled and immune to AA. Rather a S2A user who uses intelligence can down planes easy. Want an example? Fine. S2A guy is sitting next to AA launcher, waiting for the J-10 (mind you, not IN the J-10). Once S2A guy sees the J-10 he waits till the J-10 is no longer looking in his direction, hops in to the AA, locks, waits for flare and fires. If all he can get is a flare, then fine. S2A guy hops out and waits for J-10 to come back, J-10 passes again, S2A jumps back in the launcher and finshes his job (assuming the J-10 had flares up for the first pass).

The only thing on the ground that Jets have a legit reason to fear is Mobile A.A. Vehicles and grounded jets. Mobile A.A. because it's, well, mobile. Grounded jets because, well, they can become ungrounded and cause some issues if you're not paying attention.

No. I have a respect for any S2A launcher, and I "fear" a smart S2A user who knows when to jump in and jump out. Mobile AA I obviously fear, because more often than not they'll kill me before I kill them if they've got half a brain.

No no no. Maybe you were able to attack them because you have been playing this game from day one and know the "Hot Spots" on every map? Naaah'. Wait! I know what it is!? Maybe it's because I am capable of attacking infantry every few seconds, you're a better pilot than me, thus you're able to attack infantry every few seconds?

Watch any of my videos and you'll find this not to be the case. Of course, hotspots meaning vehicle spawns and flags, but again it's all the fault of the infantry for clustering in said area. I NEVER die to planes when I'm playing infantry. Just flat out never, end of story for me as far as I'm concerned.

The Jet is the single most dominate object in the game.

You could debate that, but it really depends on the pilot, but overall I'd agree with you. It's also the most easily countered vehicle in the game.

I think Jets should have to land to rearm and repair.

You're losing credibility with me with silly suggestions like that.

They should also lose all "rader" ability vs. ground units
UNLESS they are spoted by UAV or Teamates. Fighters should also "NOT" have Bombs. If you want to offer ground support, put cannons on the ground or protect your bomber.

Ladies and gentlemen, we are now in the twilight zone. As I've shown conclusively fighter pilots have an SPM lower than medics, assault, Spec Ops, armor users, and helicopter pilots, while only having a slightly higher KDR. You really think it's necessary to nerf fighter bomb that require pinpoint accuracy to make them effective? Because I certainly don't.

The fighter Jet shouldn't be the only vehicle that takes absolutely "NO" level of teamwork to use effectively (hell no vehicle should operate effectively without teamwork); which is true if you're talented enough.

Helicopters manage it, I manage it just fine in an APC or tank, or lone with my PKM. I could go on and on but it really depends on the skill level of the player in question.

How are they useless? They attribute a vast amount to the loss of tickets for the enemy force. I wouldn't call them anything close to useless. The only downfall to their mindset is that flags run the possiblity of never being capped.

Useless because it isn't how much you kill, but rather what you kill. I'd take 10 tanks over 30 infantry any day of the week.

Hmmm.. I don't know. Carpet bombers push 100+ points a round. Apparently they aren't "wasting" the resource. Not that I condone their actions (I don't). They do have the right mindset though given the structure of BF2. It's all about rank, do what's needed to bolster that rank (No... I don't agree with this common mindset either).

Carpet bombers most often do NOT push those scores. Pilots like me can and do, but we are a rare breed. Though bombers are a little too easy, but that's another thread completely. More importantly an enemy bomber with me as a fighter jet is going to be on the bottom of the scoreboard, end of story.

This thread is getting way off topic though Paas, so if you'd like to continue debating it PM me rather than cluttering up this thread.

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

No, that is exactly what is perfect and needs to be kept, it just needs to be expanded to the other planes. Keep in mind that it isn't just turning, it's turning as hard as possible at max speed... this is important. It is important because it means that if you are careful you can still score hits if you are wise about your timing, you have to wait for the right opportunity. Also, this missle dodging only seems to apply to air to air, the surface to air missles can still track a J-10 through a tight turn and will hit if the J-10 doesn't have flares. Expanding the A2A dodging ability of the J-10 to the other fighters would be ideal because it would still let the ground pounders counter air craft, but it would prevent air craft from insta killing one another. Dogfighting would become a mix of carefully timed missle attacks combined with skillful cannon fire, which is exactly how it should be in my opinion.

TheGhost is spot on with all of his observations and I agree with every single one of them. And I'm extremely glad someone understands things as I do. That is the opinion of a dedicated and skilled pilot who plays as infantry/armor/helicopters as well.

[shiremct]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

Some good discussion going on, although PW, i think you are blowing off many who offer you honest discussion, which is rare enough on any forum, let alone for what is BF2.

I don't fly that much, but of course I know the J-10 is better than the F35. Your proposed solution to increase the manuverability of ALL the planes up to the J-10 is simple and might be effective for increasing the fun of Air-to-Air combat... but what about the guys on the ground? Do we really need a game full of as someone previously stated "X-Wings on steroids" raping the ground with their cannons?

Honestly... The game needs so much fine-tuning its enough to make me cry. I would only support increasing manuverability of jets if the splash damage on cannons was reduced. And even then, I think the F-18 or Mig are more sutible mediums. The real problem on air dominance is not so much the bombs... Its not the missles; Its the obscene amounts of damage the aircraft can indescriminatly dish out with cannon fire. Let them retain their damage to make the cannons useful for taking out choppers and tanks and such, but the infantry-raping splash damage needs to go, really it needs to go period, but even more so with such a proposed solution. I dont give a damn how powerful an aircrafts cannons may be in real life... that doesnt matter here. Its the same with the tank drivers interior machine gun. Simple blatant things that really detract from gameplay that would be EASY to fix. Reduce splash damage on cannon fire, increase deviation by a LOT on tank driver's machine gun, increase the armor on RIBs (for god sakes...) etc etc. Some heavy duty tweaking (I mean lots of small, easy fixes, most simply changing some values in a damn text file) would do wonders for this game, but unfortunetly what we will get if we get anything at all is selective tweaking that serves to further disrupt balance between infantry/vehicles/airpower.

So in recap. my problem with you solution of increaseing all fighters to J-10 manuverability is the increased lethality of cannons and its further disruption on an already poorly balanced game.

Static AA is another poorly implemented "check" (If you can allow it to be called that...) on aircraft. Its extremely low engagement range and even worse map placement make it faily useless against good pilots. I disagree with your argument PW about waiting beside and jumping in as the pilot isnt looking for one reason: Any enemy plane will spray the area with cannons... meaning if you are anywhere near, you are killed by the splash damage and if you are far enough away, you can not get to it in time to even get a beep, let alone a lock, before the jet is out of your engagement range.


To bleed over discussion from the thread on tweaking the commander's ability to drop arty and such, what do you pilots think about a commander ability to drop in stationary emplacements like a supply drop, such as AA sites and TOW sites. How do you think such a system would help balance vehicles and aircraft without filling a map with infantry-killing linebackers. Yes, I understand such a feature would NEVER be implemented into bf2 because it would most likely require some extensive coding, but personally, I think thats how it should have been. Much more powerful, long range AA sites at key locations such as uncaps, like maybe two per map max, and then commander can drop stinger sites. A map-specific limit to the number. Anyway... just thinking out loud. As I said, it would never be implemented, but I just wondered how you think it would have worked out.

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

...

I'm not sure where you people are getting the idea that creating a standard plane handling model will some how translate in to you getting slaughtered by cannons more often. Just incase some people still do not understand, S2A missiles now hit even J-10s with near 100% accuracy. However A2A missiles do not, which is the point. People on the ground will not be effected by this change.

Actually I take that back, they will be effected and for the better. They'll no longer get stuck on U.S. team versus China with friendly fighter unable to defend themselves and go offensive versus the J-10. As such, they'll be dogfighting more, you'll be dying less. Everyone is happy.

[shiremct]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

I'm not sure where you people are getting the idea that creating a standard plane handling model will some how translate in to you getting slaughtered by cannons more often. Just incase some people still do not understand, S2A missiles now hit even J-10s with near 100% accuracy. However A2A missiles do not, which is the point. People on the ground will not be effected by this change.

Actually I take that back, they will be effected and for the better. They'll no longer get stuck on U.S. team versus China with friendly fighter unable to defend themselves and go offensive versus the J-10. As such, they'll be dogfighting more, you'll be dying less. Everyone is happy.

This isn't true and you know it, as a pilot, as well as I know it as an infantryman. How much easier is it to swing down and take out an incoming boat in a J-10 vs the F35? Say you are flying along and notice an infantryman behind the building on the south base on wake... how much more likely are you to be able to quickly swing down and spray the cannon in the J-10 vs the F35? As a pilot, you know how much easier it is to do these sort of things in the J-10. Not that you cannot in the F35, but you know full well how the improved manuverability of the J-10 equals improved lethality for more than just A2A combat. I am not disagreeing with your idea to balance up the jets, I just think that a medium between the J-10 and the F35 is more appropriate than making all the fighters that manuverable.

[Blades]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

Yeah, and of course by that logic it makes perfect sense that the most dominant air power in the world has the weakest jets in the game. BRILLIANT!

Well actually, Israel has the best air force in the world.

[« R²» HKS]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

Other than the PKM's or the J-10's dominance, what about the bloody heli's?

I agree that something needs to be done to level the playing field, plane wise, however it was all good until I read this:

I'm not a player who likes to put myself at a severe crippling disadvantage (and hinder my enjoyment) versus an inferior enemy in a superior vehicle an attempt to prove something that I already know to be true. I'm a pretty mellow guy, but I'll say in the BF2 series flying against a J-10 absolutely infuriates me. So I simply avoid that situation and pick the J-10. Not that I want some gross advantage over the other pilots, but rather it is the best option for me until DICE provides me with what I truly desire, an even playing field.

If you don't find a flying J-10 a challenge then why don't you fly on the opposite side for a challenge against the J-10's? I understand your at a big disadvantage but shouldn't that make for a more challenging and rewarding game when you own the J-10 knowing its superior? Why fly a plane that you know is superior? Where is the fun in that especially proclaiming your skills and self claim of being the best? The best pilot in the best plane is surely a no brainer and surely no challenge, so why do you keep choosing China and the J-10 then. This is what confuses me!

Having said that, coming from the other side of the fence, that is the heli's, again it now doesn't matter what plane you are in the plane owns all heli's. There needs to be a major re-think in the heli nerfing 1st I believe. I use to be that pesky heli pilot that frustrated the planes until they ended up ramming me to down me, now the skill factor of the pilot means little as the power factor of the planes are immense. Planes need a tweaking but heli's need to be un-nerfed. Its certainly not as bad as 1.20 for A2A but... its still only 1-2 secs of plane cannon fire to down a heli. A total re-think needs to be made in regards to this 1st.

Also I'd also like to see the 2mph jets fall out of the sky. I'd like to see a much higher minimum air speed

I think the KISS principle should apply. Makes planes the same, just like tanks. Then its up to the pilot, it doesn't matter what side you play on. Maybe PW would actually play USA on wake more often if this was the case instead of taking the easy way out.

Un-nerf heli's again to what they were in 1.12 Why not allow "all" vehicles to have all occupants count towards a cap again as pre 1.03? Where would the harm be in that? I never understood that blanket approach when the only complaint was the BH flag hopping and tank like ability in conjuction with its mega cannons. In this regard the fat cow should have BH guns, armour reduced on the BH's then the playing field would have been even.

I can still score more on the ground, by myself, not even in a squad as a lone wolf compared to flying an attack heli and that is really pathetic.

[Stomp-GoA-]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

Well actually, Israel has the best air force in the world.

I used to believe that, but with todays technology, I think the ball is back in our court IMHO

[Bungalow_Bill]

Re: The single biggest balance issues that remains in Battlefield 2 - the J-10

This isn't true and you know it, as a pilot, as well as I know it as an infantryman. How much easier is it to swing down and take out an incoming boat in a J-10 vs the F35? Say you are flying along and notice an infantryman behind the building on the south base on wake... how much more likely are you to be able to quickly swing down and spray the cannon in the J-10 vs the F35? As a pilot, you know how much easier it is to do these sort of things in the J-10. Not that you cannot in the F35, but you know full well how the improved manuverability of the J-10 equals improved lethality for more than just A2A combat. I am not disagreeing with your idea to balance up the jets, I just think that a medium between the J-10 and the F35 is more appropriate than making all the fighters that manuverable.

Heh. I can barely "swing down" fast enough to kill specific infantry, and I highly doubt 99% of players can manage such a feat in a plane. In fact though, an F-35B is a MUCH easier plane to use. The J-10 (unlike all of the other planes) has a very shakey feel to it. It's very hard to explain, but very noticable. That makes the F-35B and other planes far easier to aim cannons with.

It's like firing the mounted MG in a moving vehicle, versus a vehicle that is sitting perfectly still. It's that same kind of instability.