CONSTRUCTIVE critism about the AA and Aircraft changes since 1.2 patch

[ThirtyOughtSix]

Before I continue, PLEASE understand I'm not just whining about the subject. I'm giving constructive critism. For those of you who don't understand what that is, it's basically explaining why something is flawed, and giving ways to possibly improve it... instead of just saying, this bites now. That being said...

The changes to the aircraft (since the 1.2 patch) in this game are both good and bad. Yes, it did help alleviate some problems with jets dominating the map. Didnt' stop them, but it helped. The chopper too could get out of hand (and actually still does, but NOT for much of any reasons they changed or didn't change... )... which was helped stopped a bit as well. They are good changes. But some are a little too much.

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Let me start with a compairson of changes to the aircraft... jets vs choppers. (and I'm NOT biased for choppers, I fly both just as much as the other, and love both as much... I just feel the choppers got the short end of the stick)

Jets
• Had thier armor reduced (not sure how much... could be half but I'm not sure... does not effect them as much)
• Thier missles are now more effective because of the AA changes

Choppers
• Had thier armor reduced (seems to about HALF of what it was... which is a joke)
• Had thier number of rockets in a clip reduced to 8 from 14 (but thier overall amount is the same, just more clips/less per clip. makes the pilot have to REALLY be careful when aiming especially at a tank which will take EVERY SINGLE ROCKET to destroy)
• Had thier TV missles range reduced to 400m from 600m (or something like that, its 2/3 of what it was)
• Fixed TV bug for havoc choppers (whoopie, should of worked right before)

Both chopper and jet suffer because of the AA changes... they are very deadly now, and almost OVERPOWERED at this point. But, I'd rather have them leave it like this then mess it up bad, or have it as before, but now and almost IMPOSSIBLE to evade with the chopper if you reveal yourself to one longer then a few seconds (only the first group of flares might save you, after that, ur a dead man). Jets can pop flares and burn away... they get away fast enouph to not have to worry about the new AA as much.

Looking at the changes for both, it seems they nerfed the chopper WAY more then the jets, and in fact, the jets are BETTER, YES BETTER, at killing air targets. Ok, so the jets have less armor, and it IS possible to shoot one down with the chopper rockets when they fly directly at you now... (compaired to before where the one pass probably wouldnt be enouph unless you landed ALOT of the rockets)... but that is VERY hard to do. So the jets dominate the choppers even MORE now. They also make it very hard for other jets to get away once they get behind with a solid lock... but at least that's on even terms (you can do the same to them).

Before the patch, 50cal machine guns on jeeps, etc would do nothing really to Jets, as they had HUGE difficulty hitting them unless flying at or away from them... and its the same now as before. 50cals had NO problem hitting choppers, and now with reduced armor they get SHREDDED.

So to sum it up, there is 1 strike (armor reduction) and 1 improvement (better AA missles) to the jets, and 3 strikes (armor, number of rockets, TV range) and 1 fix for the choppers. And the reduction in armor effects the chopper more because it is much easier to hit with a large range of weapons.

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So? Where am I going with all this?

I'll tell you.. the changes to the AA where something that needed to happen. Air vehciles (and this is coming from a pilot) where overpowered before... especially the jets... but the choppers to a degree as well. But with the INSANE improvement to the AA, they are nowhere nearly as effective and get shot down WAY easier then before. I've flown both chopper and jet for a while after the patch... and I can tell you there's some things that can be adapted to, and some that CANNNOT. I can learn to be more aware of AA emplacements, and avoid them more. I can learn to pop flares and fly away from the AA in a jet, or even pop flares and duck behind cover in a chopper. I can definately GET AWAY easier in a jet though, if I book it outta there. The AA missle damage has been reduced, but its still not enouph of a reduction to counter out how powerful the AA now is.

The biggest problems I have are these:

• The choppers have NO WAY to survive ground AA if they do not have any cover... if they get a lock on, they are dead provided the AA user has a clue how to use it (in other words they dont just fire as soon as they can but wait for the right time).

• Choppers AND jets have almost no way to survive another jet bearing down on them. Choppers? pop flares, move around alot and PRAY. Jets? pop flares and try to get them off your butt... but it doesnt take long to get wasted and if they have ANY skill in following you, you do NOT have enouph time to evade thier lock. That's it.

• Mobile AA is ridulously UNSTOPPABLE vs aircraft. Ground AA? not a problem they have 2 shots then have to reload. 2 rockets might not be enouph to instantly kill an aircraft... after all they do have flares. Mobile AA was FEARED even BEFORE the patch, it would be a HUGE nuisance (more of a PROBLEM actually) to aircraft. Now with the 6 AA rockets they carry and can launch off all at once before reloading, they are GOD to aircraft. If one wants you dead, and you cannot escape its sights in time, YOU ARE DEAD.

• Choppers get ripped apart even more then before from 50cal machine guns. I would suspect this would be true of jets too, but I rarely even HIT a jet with one, let alone enouph to find out. So I don't think its an issue with jets.


Possible fixes to these problems:

• Give the chopper more armor again. Maybe not as much as before... but like 3/4 of what it had BEFORE 1.2 patch. Right now its about 1/2 of what it was. This would help with both the having a problem living through AA without cover (which is really NEVER vs a jet) and ALSO with the 50cal problem. It would still leave the chopper vurnable though, and with all the other reductions the chopper has taken, its still MUCH less effective then before. This way the chopper would NOT almost be on fire after just 2 hits (it only takes 2 hits and a bit of machine gun fire from just about anything to put it on fire... leaving it no way to escape alive).

• Reduce the lock on area for jet lock ons (the area on your screen you can get/maintain a lock... i.e. make it smaller so they actually need more skill to keep you insdie the lock area... I'm NOT TALKING ABOUT THE RANGE)... it would require them to keep you more directly in front of them to get a lock. You could also shake the lock easier.

• Reduce the mobile AA clip... HOPEFULLY to 2 rockets per clip. But anything less is better. You can give them just as many rockets, just give them more clips. Same change they made to rockets for a chopper... would make it so you can pop flares and STILL have a chance to kill them now. Whatever the reason, 2 AA missles will KILL A JET OR CHOPPER if your flying AT them instead of away or to the side. So it's hard to take out mobile AA with aircraft now.. VERY hard... as I see it, it should be very possible to do... it's done in real life. Sure the AA in real life can kill the jet/chopper just as easy, which it should be. It is now in the game, but its EASIER then them killing you. If you get the drop on mobile AA, you SHOULD be able to destroy it.

• Increase the lock on time.. right now its EXTREMELY short... adding 1 second or something would make a big difference. Not sure exactly how much longer... nothing extreme. Just a small amount so that they aircraft KNOW they are being locked. I've had times where I heard the beep just as I died. And I wasn't RIGHT next to the AA whatsoever.


There are other problems with the AA I've noticed as well.. sometimes the AA missles wig out... and shouldn't. Also it seems the lock on range AFTER they locked you is further away then what it took to gain the lock to begin with. Is that on purpose? If so, makes NO SENSE to me.

So what do you guys think? Please DO NOT flame this... I'm looking for well thought out repsonses. Not OMG YOU NOOB crap.

[Keith Maniac]

Re: CONSTRUCTIVE critism about the AA and Aircraft changes since 1.2 patch

Before I reply, I would just like to point out that THERE ARE ALREADY SOMETHING LIKE 5-10 THREADS ABOUT POST-1.2 AA IN THESE (or probably in ANY) BF2 FORUMS TOO.

[ThirtyOughtSix]

Re: CONSTRUCTIVE critism about the AA and Aircraft changes since 1.2 patch

This isnt a new topic. Did I claim it is? Before you just spam oh somebody has talked about this before, could you READ IT? I dont remember anyone saying anything exactly along these lines. You find somebody saying what I did, show me. Because I've seen two sides of the fence... people that dont like the changes and people that do. I don't see much of any compromise. I'm looking for a resonable realistic change that can be done to the game.... I don't know if anyone will listen to me at EA or DICE... or anyone for that matter... but if I don't post nobody will ever see it. And most people complain about the AA only... I'm not complaining, but BRINGING UP balance issues between ALL aspects of the game and aircraft.

[Deadeye313]

Re: CONSTRUCTIVE critism about the AA and Aircraft changes since 1.2 patch

I really don't see very much wrong with the AA in patch 1.2. Before and now a pilot only need point at the AA emplacement and 2 bullets later the guy is dead. I regularly man the emplacements and good pilots can keep the AA launchers out of commission easily.

helicopters should have a hard time getting through AA barages. there are many ways to still avoid AA, you can't just fly straight anymore. If you're in a helicopter either fly low and fast or very high, there's no middle ground and there shouldn't be any.

As for the AA-vehicles, well, they are AA-vehicles not because they are easily destroyed by aircraft. If you need one killed, get a tank to do it. it's called interdependency aka teamwork.

[{wxc}panda]

Re: CONSTRUCTIVE critism about the AA and Aircraft changes since 1.2 patch

As for new AA, fix the bugs and i'm fine with it. With the new AA improvement, AA Tking has become worse. I dont mind getting shot down by enemy's AA, but getting shot down by friendly AA just annoy the hell out of me.
As for chopper, Bottom line is that I would like to have transporting chopper's health resumed. I mean they are slow as hell and none of them has attacking power now. Without reasonable endurance they will be just like flying coffins.

[Alcorr]

Re: CONSTRUCTIVE critism about the AA and Aircraft changes since 1.2 patch

I agree 99% especially the chopper part except for this:

Reduce the lock on area for jet lock ons... it would require them to keep you more directly in front of them to get a lock. You could also shake the lock easier.

Jet lock on range is already very low....I can see the guy way before I lock onto him...

[PHPT]

Re: CONSTRUCTIVE critism about the AA and Aircraft changes since 1.2 patch

Like most people that post these things, you are neglecting one very important key fact: The lock range was NERFED on ground AA emplacements. If you fly your jet into range and you drop flares, you WILL be out of range before the flares clear. Period. Choppers are hard to hit because obstructions reset the lock, they can still wave off very fast, and there are a LOT of obstructions that can get in the way.

Add that to the fact that a gunner that knows how to use F9 and knows where the AA emplacements are can knock you out immediately. With jets, a lone AA emplacement is a FREE KILL, just dump flares the first time, next time come around and strafe it, congrats, you just blew up the AA site AND killed the guy in it.

In general, with the exception of transport choppers (which are now screwed), you NEED more than one AA site targetting or, if the pilot/gunner are even slightly smart, you won't hit a thing.

A good jet pilot will still dominate. A good attack chopper pilot with a good gunner will still dominate. The difference is that now you actually DO have to be good.

[Orphious2006]

Re: CONSTRUCTIVE critism about the AA and Aircraft changes since 1.2 patch

The chooper Armor was only reduced by 1 hit point I am pretty sure. I believe I read somewhere that it went from 46 to 45...wish I could find the link for ya.

[Alcorr]

Re: CONSTRUCTIVE critism about the AA and Aircraft changes since 1.2 patch

The chooper Armor was only reduced by 1 hit point I am pretty sure. I believe I read somewhere that it went from 46 to 45...wish I could find the link for ya.

Umm well I don't know the exact numbers, but that isn't correct.

As a chopper pilot, a 50 cal went from taking me out in about 7 seconds to about 3...

[{wxc}panda]

Re: CONSTRUCTIVE critism about the AA and Aircraft changes since 1.2 patch

First off there is no armor on aircrafts, the official word of the change was "health". I tried knifing a chopper for a number of times and I dropped 1 bar of health of that chopper. u can never do something like that to an armored vehicle.
As for the amount of attack chopper's health reduction. I'm pretty sure it's 2-3 bars, because in pre 1.2 a tank shot can only drop AC's health to 4 bars, but in 1.2 a tank shot will normally leave AC 1-2 bars of health.

[Strogge]

Re: CONSTRUCTIVE critism about the AA and Aircraft changes since 1.2 patch

The chooper Armor was only reduced by 1 hit point I am pretty sure. I believe I read somewhere that it went from 46 to 45...wish I could find the link for ya.

The chopper armor HP was only reduced by 12,5%, from 1000 to 875. So it's not half or whatever as some like to believe.

[jakswan]

Re: CONSTRUCTIVE critism about the AA and Aircraft changes since 1.2 patch

There is one thing you may have overlooked, I find it harder to take down good chopper pilots now with a plane. Is he mad you say?

Before my team could spot a chopper and it would be dead, anywhere on the map, if I'd been on the server for a time and you didn't have a good fighter pilot, enemy chopper spotted and thirty seconds later you were dead. You had no defence at all, now it depends where you are.

I mean if your stupid enough to move out in the open, well one pass = dead. Mind I would never bother with AA before the patch or after, your flares reload to fast and cannons are much cleaner.

However before you cross me off your Christmas Card list, I agree chopper pilots have a very raw deal. For some reason I'm Mr. Wobbly in them and I think their harder to fly than a plane.

I suppose up the armour is the simplest most transparent way.

[Kattspya]

Re: CONSTRUCTIVE critism about the AA and Aircraft changes since 1.2 patch

. makes the pilot have to REALLY be careful when aiming especially at a tank which will take EVERY SINGLE ROCKET to destroy)

I stopped reading at this point. If you're going to make a statement you aren't 100% sure about then at least don't put it in CAPS.

An APC goes down in four (4) FFAR's which leaves four (4) FFAR's in the pods.
A tank goes down in five (5) FFAR's which three (3) FFAR's in the pods.

Please look over your post and correct very very very very very very basic errors and then maybe I'll read what you write.

[Drexor69]

Re: CONSTRUCTIVE critism about the AA and Aircraft changes since 1.2 patch

I think I've been taken out by more .50 cal's mounted on vehicles after the patch than almost anything else. You always have tons of stuff coming at you, some of it does a lot of damage and some of it doesn't and since the patch a .50 cal will eat through a choppers health in no time flat. When I'm concentrating on flying and spotting targets it's real easy to overlook that red signal showing you're taking damage when you don't hear anything to accompany it.

Is it just me that doesn't hear those bullets ripping my chopper apart since the patch?

As for A2A, most pilots rely on their missiles. If a pilot locks on me I pop flairs and turn, a chopper can always outmaneuver a plane. It's the pilots that are good with their guns that kill me now for pretty much the same reason as the mobie mounted guns. I don't hear them so I'm not paying close attention to my health. =\

I'd like to see the sound get fixed and try that a bit. I completely agree that post 1.2 AA makes for a more interesting game. Since 1.2 I haven't seen any jet pilots dominate a map like I always saw pre 1.2...

[Wild_Wokman]

Re: CONSTRUCTIVE critism about the AA and Aircraft changes since 1.2 patch

I am seeing it much different! The AA needs to lock on much faster and farther away to get the raping jets and choppers! As far as the mobile AA, I have been killed countless times by jets that zoom in from no where and bomb me. If you have a good pilot, the jets and choppers are still very hard to put down. Had one the other day that kept raping the runway and taking out the jets and AA as it spawned or they would steal our jet and then we would not get a new jet. No recourse, but to run and hide.