The P90

[F-1]

Re: The P90

M4 Carbine... market to be a "Smaller, just as accurate, M16". Yet, it's design is flawed. The shorter barrel length causes the hot gases to have extended wear on parts.

The weapon is also notorios for getting exceptionally hot under continued automatic fire. It tends to jam more than it's larger cousin (M16) and is very vulnerable to sand. Yet, it was marketed as the next great evolution in the M4 SOPMOD kit.

..you wanna' say marketing doesn't affect things? Ok.. Ok. Here is more.

The military grade 5.56x45mm (Green Tipped). The 60gr projectile thought of as nothing more than a "Varmit Caliber in Military Clothing". The Army marketed it to the puplic as a "tumbler". The round, although small, would be able to fragment and tumble instide of a target. Thus, increasing it's kill capacity.

Sadly, the 5.56 military does little to down a man with multiple rounds to the chest. It also has horrible penetration within' urban/jungle enviroments (Iraq, Vietnam). It's only benefit is reduces recoil on sustained automatic fire, and the muzzle velocities this round is capable to produce. That means nothing when you factor in the fact a terrorist charging at you with a live frag can live through multiple 5.56 rounds to the chest, and still keep coming. Even with it's marketed "Tumble" ability. It's still unable to produce stopping power compared to that of a 9mm Para. up close.

You can Google all of this information your self. Furthermore, the video doesn't anybody being shot by the P90 (I assume they would have at least SOME combat footage). So, it didn't really show what the round could go against a human.

So, with this in mind, are you still going to tell me marketing doesn't have a place in military applications? The companies are STILL trying to SELL a PRODUCT. So, they will bend words just like McDonalds and Wal-Mart to get that product out. If you think otherwise, well, I have some vintage canadian Ak-47's to sell you. 15k a pop.

Now, if you disagree with my assumptions for the P90's implementation into the game. Cool. My basis for my idea is that the P90 has 50rds. to a mag. At 15 damage a round that would amount to 7 rounds to kill an opfor. That's about 13-15% of a mag. So, that's about 6 people per mag. I don't see a problem with that at all. Also, the P90's only "Up Side" is its armor punching capabilities, bringing that from reality to game would make it unique. Otherwise it's just a slightly modified version of the MEC submachinegun.

{WP}Paas

P.S. - Again, if you want to go futher into this discussion. Send me a PM.

You definitly have good arguments. However, it seems that EA's approach to the SMGs in the game is to give them enough damage so they wont make one-head-shot-kill. That is why they are nerfing the MP7 in the upcoming patch. So I guess it will have a damage less than or equal to the pistol's damage at most: ~20 at most.
Factoring the body's armor in the game is built in the code. every single shot from any weapon will take the body's armor into account. I belive they have to make some changes to the game's code to do that. There are releasing a new patch anyway so making such a change is possible.

All of what we are saying now is just a guess! so anyone of us could be wrong/right. We can just wait and see.

in my opinion: if it takes more than three shots to kill someone then that weapon is not for me. I personaly prefer shotguns or assault rifles. Even the carbines are not for me (although they are usually deadly accurate and can easily make a one-head-shot-kill).

Actually even if the P90 will "ignore" the body's armor, having a damage ~15 (as you suggested) will make it terribly useless. Seven shots to kill a guy will make it hopeless.... we just have to wait and see!

[Debonairxl]

Re: The P90

How many times do I have to say it.... EA is adjusting the accuracy of the anti-tank primary weapons.

Now for goodness sake, think about it for 5 seconds... No bunny hopping + no dolphin diving + no sprint exploit will require weapons to be re-balanced. The accuracy on the AT primary is likely going to go up to compensate for this lack of mobilility, just as the LMGs will. That means, that regardless of the bantering about SMGS having been largely useless (exception mp7), post patch they will likely be better. Sigh, and please enough of this useless filler information about real world weapon capabilities. It really doesn't benefit the discussion much if at all.

[WarGimp]

Re: The P90

Sigh, and please enough of this useless filler information about real world weapon capabilities. It really doesn't benefit the discussion much if at all.

Oi!
Back off the gun nuts!

I find the banter between trigger freaks to be kinda interesting.

[Paas]

Re: The P90

For one, you haven't shown any videos otherwise either. And 2, almost most people in the military dislike the 9mm because it has no stopping power and not as much as a 5.56. Check sites and they will counter argue your point all the time. There are problems with the M16/M4, but not as much as you say. The reasons the soldiers and Marines are dying is because they lack the armor which could save them since most of the time they are being hit with roadside bombs or IEDS. The soldiers and Marines win the majority of firefights they are againt. And about Vietnam, the size of the bullet didn't have anything to do with why the US suffered so many casulities.
It was dense jungle fighting which was new to the military and new tactics which no one could anticipate. Bullets going through the trees is bs because no one knew where the enemy was going to come from. It wasn't the straight forward war on teh front lines like before. Couple that with the stessful environment and cut down training of the military forces for the war and it isn't the bullet which did it.

You say can how much better the 9mm is and I can say how much better the 5.56 is, but they aren't changing it anytime soon anyway and the fact is that if it was a poor a round as you say it is, we would have even more soldiers and Marines dying. It is the poor quality of armor which is killing them because we have much better training then the enemy and they can make do with what they have at hand since they are not going to replace the caliber anytime soon. The Marines just purchased new M16A4s.

Wow. You seem angry.

Hmmm... I didn't say anything about soilders dying, I didn't say anything about the weapon have to shoot through trees, and I didn't say anything about the Army changing clibers (although they are looking into the 6.8SPC. One of the primary reasons it was selected over the grendel is because of its compatiblity with the M249 SAW. Currently, I belevie it's only fielded by Special Operations divisions).

Also. Armor is now standard of Hummers. I don't know if that "Unmanned" turret system is. But, I know armor is. Yet, I agree, IED's are the primary reason lives are being taking in Iraq. I don't see how this factors into my argument.

I think you're taking my claims out of perspective as well. Yes, in military applications the 5.56 will have more stopping power than the 9mm FMJ. Primarly because it's a rifle round. It arrives with much more accuracy and velocity than an 9mm would ever do at 200+yards. That being said, I never argued in favor of the 9mm at range. I simply said it has better close range stopping power on an unarmored target than a 5.56/5.7.

So, yes, soilders would say the 9mm has horrible stopping power in comparison to the 5.56. They operate at extended ranges. Also, I'm almost 100% sure the insurgency has some type of body armor, which would render the 9mm FMJ/JHP completely useless.

...all of that aside though. I have already said all of this before. You cannot use perspectives I present to argue against me. If you just pay attention to what I'm saying, instead of getting bent all out of shape you would understand the whole of my claim.

I'll sum it up for you in one easy to comprehend line:

"The 5.56/5.7 (60gr) simpley WILL NOT stop a "UNARMORED" target at close range (25yrds.) better than a 9mm FMJ/JHP will (120gr); even with it's marketed 'tumble' ability".

That's it. That's all I'm trying to say. That's what I'm basing my prediction on.

Do you even fire firearms? Have you ever used ANY weapon chambered to a 5.56 or a 9mm? ...and aren't you guys supposed to be PMing me about this if you want to carry on the gun chatter!? Eh!?

As for the Video thing. You want me to show some combat footage? I HAVE NEVER BEEN IN COMBAT! ...I'm not a soilder, I'm a civilian who likes firearms. Yet, if you search "Altavista", or limewire, you can find plenty of combat footage and SWAT breaches. All with multiple calibers on display. Or, you can just look up "Gel Testings" and get some raw predictions in that field. Even Gel Testings aren't a 100% accurate representation of a rounds effectivness against a human being. It's a start though.

{WP}Paas

P.S. - Triggerfreaks? lol.. I like that one :P

[00SoldierofFortune00]

Re: The P90

For one, I did not get bent out fo shape. And if you have never seen an insurgent or person hit by a 5.56mm round up close before, don't comment on it before you do see it. Different things factor into that and not just standing there and shooting.

And if you read my post you can understand the stuff I was relating it too instead of just skimming through it.

And whats the point of Pming when we can explain it here?

And they are most likely not going to change the round because that cost money which is getting harder to come by now and you have to rechamber everything, train, etc.

Not all Humvees are armored yet either.

[Paas]

Re: The P90

For one, I did not get bent out fo shape. And if you have never seen an insurgent or person hit by a 5.56mm round up close before, don't comment on it before you do see it. Different things factor into that and not just standing there and shooting.

And if you read my post you can understand the stuff I was relating it too instead of just skimming through it.

And whats the point of Pming when we can explain it here?

And they are most likely not going to change the round because that cost money which is getting harder to come by now and you have to rechamber everything, train, etc.

Not all Humvees are armored yet either.

Actually I have. I watched footage of it a while ago. It wasn't actually an insurgent, it was a Iraqi Soilder.

My father served in Desert Storm, and he managed to bring back a little bit of footage for me (Ok, he stole it. I watched it. It wasnt' directly "For" me. That's beside the point though. I have seen the before and after pictues of combat as well. I have seen a limited number of Gel test, I have also seen SWAT pictures (you can find them online) and helmet camera feeds.

Not to mention I have second hand knowledge from all of the males in my fathers side of the family, all of whom where Marines, and all of whom served in their respective conflicts. (Not sure the rank of my Grandfather. My father and uncle were both SSgts).

So, to say I have never seen an individual take a 5.56 round is kinda' false. Granted, I have not seen in in person, but I have seen the affects. They are very similar to the gel test. The rounds "tumble" ability is overated on torso shots. Now, the 5.56 can easily split a head open, but that's another store all together.

Also, somthing being standard issue and being "completely" implemted are two different things. Let me rephrase it for you, " All hummers are SUPPOSED to be outfitted with extra armor". It's standard in the Marin.Corp now. I would assume it's the same in the Army.

Also, the Army IS looking into the 6.8SPC as it's standard caliber. That's not up for debate. It's published in numerous gun/weapon magazines. All of whom have very good merit: Guns n' Ammo/Special Weapons and Tactics/Mauser/Sport Rifles.. etc. You don't have to "Rechamber" anything. You just change the upper receiver on AR-15 class rifles. In terms of the M249, you simply chage the barrel. THe 6.8Spc already works within' the feed housing. Also, the U.S. doesn't have a cap on our Military budget, the goverment can always find ways of building 200million dollar F-22's, I don't think rifle conversions will be a problem. We spend like liberals when it comes to the military budget (Even though we shelled out to the lowest bidder: Colt) By the way, the 6.8SPC has recoil on par with the 5.56 (Yes, I have fired this caliber as well. Yes, it's legal for civilians to own); yet it has stopping power within' the 7.62x39mm classification. Which means no extra training is needed .

...oh. I cannot read your tone through your post (I can try though). Yet, judging from the lackluster, baseless, and utterly confusing remarks you're making. I don't know what to take it as. I mean, at least state your first hand experience with some type of weaponary. I feel as if I'm wasting my time because no matter how many valid and supported points I make, you come back with... crud... Are you just debating to be difficult? Or do you actually have a leg to stand on?

{WP}Paas

P.S. - It's common to take long "Off Topic" debates to PM. So, send me one, and we can continue this. Else, I give. Not really trying to change your mind anyways; just trying to inform.

[18Zulukiller]

Re: The P90

does anybody know anything about the new p90 anti tank unlock coming in the new patch. also the new sniper unlock. I tried to search but was unable to find out any details. Thanks in advance-----majsmt-----

OK i read bits of this thread and everyone is to busy dishing each others opinion on weapons. ANYWAY isn't the FAMAS the new unlock for anti tank not the P90 which i don't think anyone has actually said yet (sorry if they have i just couldn't be arsed reading all the weapon stats crap only because I'm jealous and were not really allowed them in the UK lol)

[Paas]

Re: The P90

OK i read bits of this thread and everyone is to busy dishing each others opinion on weapons. ANYWAY isn't the FAMAS the new unlock for anti tank not the P90 which i don't think anyone has actually said yet (sorry if they have i just couldn't be arsed reading all the weapon stats crap only because I'm jealous and were not really allowed them in the UK lol)

I thought it was the P90 and the L96a1 for snipers.

...if it's the Famas. Then, damn. That's gunna' be interesting.

{WP}Paas

[vbl]

Re: The P90

I thought it was the P90 and the L96a1 for snipers.

...if it's the Famas. Then, damn. That's gunna' be interesting.

{WP}Paas

AT gets the P90.