Battlefield 2 Small Arms: In Game versus Reality

[gurkha_warrior]

Re: Battlefield 2 Small Arms: In Game versus Reality

The M-16 (military version) is different from the AR-15 (civilian version) in many ways. One of the difference is the inclusion of a flash hider on the M-16 (flash hiders are banned by the ATF on civilian weapons in most states). Many military weapons have flash hiders.

Muzzle flash is dependant of the caliber and also the weapon. Additionally, some brands of ammo produce more flash than others because of their chemical composition.

Smaller weapons also have larger "perceived" recoils (recoil is a very subjective matter) because of their shorter barrels and light weight. Longer guns are able to distribute recoil along a bigger mass and also offer the shooter better control.

Recoil is experienced in different ways, there is the back kick when you fire the gun and also the muzzle climb when firing an automatic weapon (which I had the fortunate bliss of doing). The point is that each gun has a particular feel for the recoil and that can only be picked up by doing reasearch about the guns and firing them (which Dice never did).

Most developers would actually go to boot camp just to get a feel of military life and to experience how it feels to march with a 60 pound rucksack. Dice however, did not.

The gun system should have a standard program in which the developer only adds data to it such as caliber, rate of fire, lenght, and then the program should automatically calculate the gun's game behavior in a realistic manner based upon that data.

A10's, Cobras and Apaches use depleted uranium rounds on their Gatling. Since uranium is denser than steel, these rounds would penetrate armor without much of a hassle.

Finally, I have never got shot, yet I know that if you get shot you will never fly through the air when struck by a bullet. No matter the caliber!

[Bullet_Force]

Re: Battlefield 2 Small Arms: In Game versus Reality

Finally, I have never got shot, yet I know that if you get shot you will never fly through the air when struck by a bullet. No matter the caliber!

You will if they use a shotgun
If you want to prove me wrong go ahead and test it on yourself :laugh:

[gurkha_warrior]

Re: Battlefield 2 Small Arms: In Game versus Reality

You will if they use a shotgun
If you want to prove me wrong go ahead and test it on yourself :laugh:

I have seen tests on pig carcasess and on ballistics gelatin!

That is why know!

Besides.... I couldn't shoot myself with a shotgun alone (my hands would not reach the trigger). However, if you volunteer as subject, I would be glad to help you.... hahaha

[Dante690]

Re: Battlefield 2 Small Arms: In Game versus Reality

You will if they use a shotgun
If you want to prove me wrong go ahead and test it on yourself :laugh:

No, you won't go flying. EVER.

[OutOfFaze]

Re: Battlefield 2 Small Arms: In Game versus Reality

ROFL what a load of crap. Americans are well armed and theres hardly any crime over there. Back to school for you i think :laugh:

You think there's hardly any crime in the USA?

ROFL at you.

Try to explain that there is hardly any crime in the USA to the families of the 8,000 people who are murdered by guns in the USA every year.

How many people are murdered by guns in any other country in the western world?

Less than 1% of that in most cases.

Honestly, think before you type.

[gurkha_warrior]

Re: Battlefield 2 Small Arms: In Game versus Reality

Switzerland has a higher percentage of guns versus citizens than the US... yet their crime rate is a fraction of the crime rate of the queitest STATE (Yes state) in the US.

All males of age 18 and some females must serve in the state militia for a certain amount of time. They are given a rifle and enough supplies to last them a couple of months. They keep this at home while continuing with their obligations. All town have a range and once you are old enough to get out of the militia you are given the choice of keeping your rifle or not.

Yet you do not hear about the "Mean Streets of Switzerland".

Because there were so many guns and everybody knew how to use them, Nazi Germany decided not to invade Switzerland.

There you go!

[imported_Rafterman]

Re: Battlefield 2 Small Arms: In Game versus Reality

You think there's hardly any crime in the USA?

ROFL at you.

Try to explain that there is hardly any crime in the USA to the families of the 8,000 people who are murdered by guns in the USA every year.

How many people are murdered by guns in any other country in the western world?

Less than 1% of that in most cases.

Honestly, think before you type.

Hmmm, maybe you should be watching your back instead of typing.

Britain, Australia top U.S.in violent crime
Rates Down Under increase despite strict gun-control measures

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: March 2, 2001

Law enforcement and anti-crime activists regularly claim that the United States tops the charts in most crime-rate categories, but a new international study says that America's former master -- Great Britain -- has much higher levels of crime.

The International Crime Victims Survey, conducted by Leiden University in Holland, found that England and Wales ranked second overall in violent crime among industrialized nations.

Twenty-six percent of English citizens -- roughly one-quarter of the population -- have been victimized by violent crime. Australia led the list with more than 30 percent of its population victimized.

The United States didn't even make the "top 10" list of industrialized nations whose citizens were victimized by crime.

Jack Straw, the British home secretary, admitted that "levels of victimization are higher than in most comparable countries for most categories of crime."

Highlights of the study indicated that:


The percentage of the population that suffered "contact crime" in England and Wales was 3.6 percent, compared with 1.9 percent in the United States and 0.4 percent in Japan.

Burglary rates in England and Wales were also among the highest recorded. Australia (3.9 percent) and Denmark (3.1 per cent) had higher rates of burglary with entry than England and Wales (2.8 percent). In the U.S., the rate was 2.6 percent, according to 1995 figures;

"After Australia and England and Wales, the highest prevalence of crime was in Holland (25 percent), Sweden (25 percent) and Canada (24 percent). The United States, despite its high murder rate, was among the middle ranking countries with a 21 percent victimization rate," the London Telegraph said.

England and Wales also led in automobile thefts. More than 2.5 percent of the population had been victimized by car theft, followed by 2.1 percent in Australia and 1.9 percent in France. Again, the U.S. was not listed among the "top 10" nations.

The study found that Australia led in burglary rates, with nearly 4 percent of the population having been victimized by a burglary. Denmark was second with 3.1 percent; the U.S. was listed eighth at about 1.8 percent.
Interestingly, the study found that one of the lowest victimization rates -- just 15 percent overall -- occurred in Northern Ireland, home of the Irish Republican Army and scene of years of terrorist violence.

Analysts in the U.S. were quick to point out that all of the other industrialized nations included in the survey had stringent gun-control laws, but were overall much more violent than the U.S.

Indeed, information on Handgun Control's Center to Prevent Handgun Violence website actually praises Australia and attempts to portray Australia as a much safer country following strict gun-control measures passed by lawmakers in 1996.

"The next time a credulous friend or acquaintance tells you that Australia actually suffered more crime when they got tougher on guns ... offer him a Foster's, and tell him the facts," the CPHV site says.

"In 1998, the rate at which firearms were used in murder, attempted murder, assault, sexual assault and armed robbery went down. In that year, the last for which statistics are available, the number of murders involving a firearm declined to its lowest point in four years," says CPHV.

However, the International Crime Victims Survey notes that overall crime victimization Down Under rose from 27.8 percent of the population in 1988, to 28.6 percent in 1991 to over 30 percent in 1999.

Advocates of less gun control in the U.S. say the drop in gun murder rates was more than offset by the overall victimization increase. Also, they note that Australia leads the ICVS report in three of four categories -- burglary (3.9 percent of the population), violent crime (4.1 percent) and overall victimization (about 31 percent).

Australia is second to England in auto theft (2.1 percent).

In March 2000, WorldNetDaily reported that since Australia's widespread gun ban, violent crime had increased in the country.

WND reported that, although lawmakers responsible for passing the ban promised a safer country, the nation's crime statistics tell a different story:


Countrywide, homicides are up 3.2 percent.
Assaults are up 8.6 percent.
Amazingly, armed robberies have climbed nearly 45 percent.
In the Australian state of Victoria, gun homicides have climbed 300 percent.
In the 25 years before the gun bans, crime in Australia had been dropping steadily.
There has been a reported "dramatic increase" in home burglaries and assaults on the elderly.

[JohnnyBigGuns]

Re: Battlefield 2 Small Arms: In Game versus Reality

Excellent post! Very informative! It's refreshing to see intelligent posts on a BF forum.

Of course as has been said before, making these weapons IG the same as IRL may throw the game balance off. We do have to worry about having fun with the game while still holding some semblance to reality. But as you said, some people may walk away from this game thinking it's a simulation of real life weaponry when clearly it is not. But I know I for one don't want a game that reflects too closely to reality as it may not turn out to be a fun game anymore otherwise.

The Fogotton Hope mod for BF42 was more close to reality, but even then, it still had plenty of arcade elements to keep it fun to play rather than tedious and boring.

[Eddy01741]

Re: Battlefield 2 Small Arms: In Game versus Reality

Good post but i disagree with semi auto sniper rifles being more accurate then bolt action ones.

I agree, normal semi-auto sniper rifles usually get 1-2 MOA (this EXCLUDES the PSG-1 and MSG-90), while most bolt action rifles, get around 0.5-1 MOA (smaller MOA is better). MOA is a measurement of accuracy for sniper rifles, MOA stands for Minute Of Angle, and measures the average diameter of the shots taken. For example, if u have a sniper rifle that gets 1MOA, that is equal to a 1 inch diameter circle at 100m, 2 inch diameter circle at 200m etc. ANyways, on the PSG-1 note, instead of doing the normal 3 rounds for the MOA measurement, the PSG-1, has to expend 50 rounds, and the total must be 1MOA or lower, which is kinda insane, 50 rounds, all in a 10 inch hole at 1km away! The PSG-1/MSG-90 can get sub-1MOA with match grade ammo. That's insane for a semi-auto sniper, but so is the price, ur normal PSG-1 costs 10,000USD when they were still offering export sales to the US.

[abtomat74]

Re: Battlefield 2 Small Arms: In Game versus Reality

The M-16 (military version) is different from the AR-15 (civilian version) in many ways. One of the difference is the inclusion of a flash hider on the M-16 (flash hiders are banned by the ATF on civilian weapons in most states). Many military weapons have flash hiders.

I am happy to tell you that law has expired. Flash hiders are now illegal only in the few states that kept the AW ban. I think there are 4 or 5 states left, leaving the vast majority to have evil baby killing flash hiders on them :)

Muzzle flash is dependant of the caliber and also the weapon. Additionally, some brands of ammo produce more flash than others because of their chemical composition.

Barrel length also plays a roll here, as well as the type of muzzle device attached the the end of the barrel. An AKS-74u for example fires the same round as the AK-74, but the muzzle flash from the 74u is many times larger.

Finally, I have never got shot, yet I know that if you get shot you will never fly through the air when struck by a bullet. No matter the caliber!

Mythbusters has done this test, and of course you are correct. In order for the target to be moved, the shooter will have had to move an equal distance backwards from the recoil.
They concluded that the felt recoil is about nearly identical to the felt impact.

Yes, Hollywood lies to us!

[OutOfFaze]

Re: Battlefield 2 Small Arms: In Game versus Reality

Hmmm, maybe you should be watching your back instead of typing.

Excellent, that's incredibly interesting, and of course very relevant to the subject of gun crime...

In case you hadn't realised, violent crime doesn't mean always mean gun crime.

Ragardless of whether Britain and Australia have a higher percentage of violent crimes per population than the USA, we have very few gun crimes relative to that of the USA. Care to make a guess why?

[abtomat74]

Re: Battlefield 2 Small Arms: In Game versus Reality

Excellent, that's incredibly interesting, and of course very relevant to the subject of gun crime...

In case you hadn't realised, violent crime doesn't mean always mean gun crime.

Ragardless of whether Britain and Australia have a higher percentage of violent crimes per population than the USA, we have very few gun crimes relative to that of the USA. Care to make a guess why?

Sure, because it has been superimposed by your crime rates involving edged and or blunt weapons...seeing as you have removed most of the guns in your country. :)
How about comparing edged/blunt weapon crime rates to that of the U.S. instead?

Yes we have problems here, but removing guns from our society will have an oppsoite effect on crime rates as has clearly been demonstrated in Aus and England.

Also, for every gun used to commit a crime in the U.S., there are multiple TIMES more instances where a gun was used to PREVENT acrime from ever occuring.

These events do not make news, becuase there was nothing to report. Only when the legal gun owner actually uses the firearm, does it make the news...and usually only local news.

No more hijacking of this thread, start another one...it won't change the fact that I cradle my AK and always will :)
The people that interjected with firearm technicalities did so at the original posters request...gun crime was not the topic here.

[imported_Rafterman]

Re: Battlefield 2 Small Arms: In Game versus Reality

Excellent, that's incredibly interesting, and of course very relevant to the subject of gun crime...

In case you hadn't realised, violent crime doesn't mean always mean gun crime.

Ragardless of whether Britain and Australia have a higher percentage of violent crimes per population than the USA, we have very few gun crimes relative to that of the USA. Care to make a guess why?

Violent crime is violent crime in my book. The point of the piece is that by doing away with private gun ownership, the rate of crime has actually increased - i.e. the criminals aren't worried about anyone being able to defend themselves. Look at the areas in the US that have right to carry legislation and you'll see much lower crime rates than the areas that have restrictive gun laws (Philly, NYC, etc.).

But not to worry, as soon as your physicians board has its way and bans large kitchen knives, things will get much safer.

[imported_Fig]

Re: Battlefield 2 Small Arms: In Game versus Reality

Aaah the good old gun debate.

Liberals: If we ban guns, no one will use them, and gun related crimes will drop.

Conservatives: If we allow guns, criminals will be less quick to use a gun when they know anyone else could have a gun as well.

Also, the thing liberals generally fail to mention, is that if guns are illegal... only those intent on commiting crimes will have them, as they have already shown thier disregard for the law. Rafterman, you're article thier shows an increase in UK and Austrailian gun violance, and (I can't quote and exact source atm) I know that Canadian gun crimes are on the rise as well. Also, guns are outlawed, what does this do to the population that commits violent crimes? It makes them look for new ways to kill people, with other things. It doesn't not act as a deterent. If you are resolved to kill someone, the fact that guns are illegal is just going make you figure out another way to do the deed, NOT make you reconsider your actions.

If the US instantly declared all firearms illegal to posses (which is impossible due to 2nd Ammendment), then what kind of situation would we have? Only the police would have guns, and literally millions would be at the mercy of gangs.

The argument really comes down to this:

Would you rather be pretty sure that no one will ever attack you with a gun, or would you rather carry your own gun just in case?

I'd rather have my own gun.


ON topic: This is a very interesting and thorough anaylisis. Sad that 90% of BF2 players won't care, and will think they know how actual guns work based off of gameplay experience, because they won't care enough to read and seriously consider this thread.

[Ind1go]

Re: Battlefield 2 Small Arms: In Game versus Reality

ROFL what a load of crap. Americans are well armed and theres hardly any crime over there. Back to school for you i think :laugh:

Hopefully you're kidding.