A Formal Apology...

[DrJambo]

Re: A Formal Apology...

Tactical Marksman, you make some very fair points, at least about yourself and how a model citizen should act when in possession of firearms. My criticisms of gun culture aren't apparently applicable to someone of your nature. Still, several poignant points still remain, which I'll continue with since you are able to discuss civily and thoughtfully:

1. What happens to the guns when you depart this earth? They are for all intents and purposes safe in your possession, but that is alas only a temporary situation! The recipient(s) of your firearms may not be as responsible as you.

2. Where are they kept, who can have access to them? Do you have kids, do they know about them, etc, etc? These are all too common variables where inevitably something goes awry which wasn't part of the storybook -leading to the eventuality of some disturbed kid going round some school with grenades and guns... it's the culture and not for the most the genuine law abiding people who own them that's the problem.
I don't like and distrust the mentality of wanting a gun to protect oneself. Criminals will always exist and with the knowledge that their victims might well have a gun means they'll be more inclined to bring a gun themselves. It's self-perpetuating and all that happens is the stakes are raised on both sides. The temptation then is all too often to react impulsively. After all we are only human and circumstances change and all too often the gun bought to protect oneself is used for a more sinister purpose.

Meanwhile criminals are robbing people in England in broad daylight, while they're at home, with no fear of resistance.

It's fortunate I live in Scotland then!

Joking aside through, the worst areas in the UK for crime are those in which gun culture is growing. Incidentally there's a fact for you Devil_Dog_9. I would normally have wanted to respond to your post, but I fear from the style of it that you're a rather naive teenager.

Regards

[big_sammy_b]

Re: A Formal Apology...

Saying 'in england people don't have guns and so criminals run riot' is a ridiculous point.

In england people DON'T WANT them and why? Because we're civilised and we don't need them. To compare the rise in gang crime here to America is ridiculous you could count the number of UK gun deaths last year on one hand virtually.

[Tactical_Marksman]

Re: A Formal Apology...

Very good questions Dr.Jambo, I'll do my best to answer them as fully as I can.

1. Firearms can be Willed, and I wouldn't bequeath my firearms to anyone I didn't know was well trained and well 'vetted'. If firearms are not specified in a Will, I believe US law provides for their remittence to and destruction by the relevant local police authority (a sherrif's dept. in my case). In short, your survivors can't just call 'dibs' or hold an estate auction.

Moreover, that 1911 I built can only be transfered by my death. Since I made it from an 80% receiver, I am it's creator within the law. Providing I do not intend it for commercial purposes (which I don't) this means two things: 1) I do not have to register it and it has no serial number 2) It cannot be sold, given, or traded... period. That's the law. I could Will it to someone, but the same restrictions would apply to them. I built it to be a sort of family heirloom, yes, though it has no serial it has identifying marks.

2. I won't tell you exactly where they're kept, how many locks you'll have to go through, or where my IR security camera is, even with the relative anonymity of the internet. I can tell you that they're kept together, cleaned for storage, and with actions clear in a space separate from ammunition and several locks must be defeated to access them. I may keep one or more firearms in a certain location for home defense, but the condition of their readiness is only possible because I do not have children and those HD firearms would be secured just like the others before guests visit. I have no children, so this system works for me. They are secure when I'm not at home, and it is... inadvisable to attempt to steal them while I am at home.

In the CCDW course required by my state of residence at least an hour was devoted to one's legal and ethical requirements for proper storage and determining what methods are appropriate under your living circumstances (do you have children, roommates, etc) which I found very responsible of them. The course was 10 hours long in classroom with a range qualificaiton. I thought the actual accuracy requirements were lax, but the safety instruction was good.

I, too, appreciate your civility and hope I've helped to restore at least a little faith in law abiding gun owners. I'm sure we'll continue to differ on several points, but that's because martial arts and firearms have become a way of life for me, along with all the philosophical, moral, and practical considerations they involve.

[imported_Iridium]

Re: A Formal Apology...

You may be repulsed by the pictures, but I find them morbidly amusing. What I see are people not at all like myself. These people are not defending themselves, they are aggressive in the situations depicted. What's more, their reckless behavior seems to only serve to make them feel cool or powerful, while their lack of firearm safety and discipline puts themselves and all innocents around them in serious jeapardy. These are the kind of people who acquire guns illegally in the US, and the only kind of people who would be armed if the US banned all guns.

With all due respect, i doubt you've ever fought in a civil war. Of course these people are not at all like yourself, because they are in conditions entirely unlike the one you are in. You think these people can go register their firearms with the local goverment? You think they have homes where they can safely lock up their rifles and ammo separately? Saying that these people are "the kind who aquire guns illegally" is shortsighted. If what is happening over there happened here, I'd be willing to bet (and I'd hope) that you'd be out there with your firearms fighting for your life and livelihood, too. After all, thats your argument for having them, isnt it?

And to anyone critisizing thier fighting style as ineffective, look at it this way: maybe they realize the end objective of a war isn't a lot of dead people. You've all been indoctrinated into beleiving war is about turning the participants into cold killing machines that efficiently and quickly take as many lives as possible. These people never read that book, and to them, war is about a show of force, not about murder. Its a little disturbing to me that you would suggest these people learn to be more effective killers.

Laughing at these photos is irresponsible. Every one of those people, who were living and breathing in those photos, has a very good chance of being dead right now. War should never be taken lightly. I doubt anyone would be pointing at that fellow's magazine and laughing if they were actually there.

[A_Dirty_Hippie]

Re: A Formal Apology...

Couple of things about this thread:

1. Some of you need to get off your supposed moral high ground and take this thread for what it is. An amuseing distraction to an otherwise redundant work day. You are displaying the same tendencies as those that wish to censor and prohibit the very video games you like to play.

2. Thank you marksman, those made me laugh.

3. This goes back a few pages but oh well. BF2 was never ment to be a sim. They were going for graphical realism and arcade gameplay.

Kind of off topic

..........Criminals will always exist and with the knowledge that their victims might well have a gun means they'll be more inclined to bring a gun themselves. It's self-perpetuating and all that happens is the stakes are raised on both sides.

Thats not right at all. The knowledge that thier victim will most likely not have a gun, in theroy, will mean that they will be more inclined to use one. A criminals mindset is already skewed in terms of right and wrong. You are, fortunately for you, ignorant of how a criminal works. They will use every advantage they can to get what they want.

The temptation then is all too often to react impulsively. After all we are only human and circumstances change and all too often the gun bought to protect oneself is used for a more sinister purpose............
Regards

What facts do you have to support this? It has been my experiance that most crimes involving a weapon were commited by those who obtained them out side of the law.

You also can not use England as an example that would be valid for the USA. England is an Island which makes the regulation of imports much easier. The USA has canada to the north and Mexico to the south with thousands of miles of sparsley gaurded borders through which unlawful firearms freely flow. In the US's case a firearm ban would most likely result in the criminals being the only ones with guns.

[imported_Iridium]

Re: A Formal Apology...

1. Some of you need to get off your supposed moral high ground and take this thread for what it is. An amuseing distraction to an otherwise redundant work day. You are displaying the same tendencies as those that wish to censor and prohibit the very video games you like to play.

Actually, you're just playing into their hands. Especially with all the crap flying around today, i think gamers need to demonstrate very clearly that they can distinguish between fiction and reality. Those pictures, and that video, is of real events, and real killing, going on right now, in the real world. Thats hugely different than a fictional video game, and deserves to be treated with some gravity.

I would never claim that anyone should be prevented from saying what they want about these pictures, thats never right. I'm just pointing out that laughing at a civil war and people in conditions like that is very disrespectful to those people. Can you imagine the outrage in this forum if someone posted pictures of american soldiers in iraq with similarly amusing captions? I'm just calling people to think about what it is, exactly, that they are laughing at.

[AlphaNut]

Re: A Formal Apology...

Can you imagine the outrage in this forum if someone posted pictures of american soldiers in iraq with similarly amusing captions?

Not exactly a soldier in Irak, and a bit old, I admit, but similar in the handling of tactical combat equipment


But I understand your point of view. It is a bit cynical.

[A_Dirty_Hippie]

Re: A Formal Apology...

Actually, you're just playing into their hands. Especially with all the crap flying around today, i think gamers need to demonstrate very clearly that they can distinguish between fiction and reality. Those pictures, and that video, is of real events, and real killing, going on right now, in the real world. Thats hugely different than a fictional video game, and deserves to be treated with some gravity.

I would agree, If we were talking about the civil war. This is not about the plight of those people, their motivation, or the hardships of thier life. This is about some pic's with some fictitious captions, which when combined become a work of fiction, and thier humorus aplication to BF2. I respect the fact that, due to current world events there are those of us that may be a little bit sensitive to pictures of combat. You must however refrain from taking your sensitivities to the level of moral superiority and try to view the pictures as frozen instances seperate from thier real life implications.

I would never claim that anyone should be prevented from saying what they want about these pictures, thats never right. I'm just pointing out that laughing at a civil war and people in conditions like that is very disrespectful to those people. Can you imagine the outrage in this forum if someone posted pictures of american soldiers in iraq with similarly amusing captions? I'm just calling people to think about what it is, exactly, that they are laughing at.

The fact that these pictures were taken during a civil war is irrelevent to the topic. If there had been no reference to the origin of thes pics would you still be commenting? No one is laughing at the war or the conditions these people are in.

[Paas]

Re: A Formal Apology...

To anybody who has said how stupid these people all are, how these poor peasents lack proper military training, to you I am appalled at your stupidity.

Well no **** that these guys can't shoot! THEY'RE NOT SOLDIERS!!!!:wall:

These people are fighting the best way they know how, spray and pray. The same way gangs in America fight, am I wrong here?

These people are also fighting for their country, for their famlies, for their freedom, and for you plump little kids to critique their fighting style is so besides the point.

You all pretend to be learned in the areas of war and battle, while in fact NONE of you(apart from actual veterans) know anything about actual fighting. Shame real fighting isn't like these games we play, you guys would all be top-notch soldiers.

...Que'!?

I'm not a soilder. Yet, I have been in a "Warzone" so to speak. So-Cal. Granted, I was only a kid, and much of the ROE was centered around hitting the deck whenever you heard an Uzi (Or glock, or m9. Those where the main weapons looking back on it all). But, I have been under gunfire. I do know the feeling.

As for your defence of their shoddy combat abilities. Ok. They maybe be defending their nation the best they know how, but that doesn't excuse the fact that they are "COMPLETELY IGNORANT".

I know how to hold a firearm, how to maintain a firearm, and how to go about hitting someone with a firearm. It's not complicated mathematics. This is double for the fact that they are using some of them most simplistic and functional weapons known to man. If I was thrown into a combat situation with an AK of any type, I think I would have the common sense to AT LEAST "Point Fire" the weapon. That's still more accurate than holding the weapon over your head and spraying like you have lost ya' mind.

...although. Back on topic points. The pictures are freaking hilarious... I almost died laughing.

{WP}Paas

[socalcaz]

Re: A Formal Apology...

I think the behavior displayed is essentially for intimidation. There is always a reason for certain behaviors and to attribute them to stupidity is short-sighted, IMO. In this enviornment and type of warfare who is to say what is the most effective behavior, unless you are immersed in it.

I think the discussion is healthy and it is good to see people debating. For this reason, the pictures serve a valuable purpose.

[megamanfre]

Re: A Formal Apology...

I like the AA gun strapped to the back of that Toyota. Apparently the Tacoma makes a good AA vehicle.

[Tactical_Marksman]

Re: A Formal Apology...

Eh, there are some people you can't bring to your own side. That's fine, I'm all for freedom of speech and differing opinions, so more power to you : )

Anyway, to those who'd say I'd act the same in similar situations... I doubt it. To my surprise and disappointment as a civilian, I have had live weapons pointed at me, not intentionally but rather by people with poor muzzle discipline, and it's always induced a cold, quick operational state (usually moving to cover or moving to change the muzzle angle/disarm them). They may not intend a threat, but if that trigger gets enough poundage on it, the bullet doesn't ask questions before heading on it's way. So, I imagine if bullets were flying training would kick in.

Scan, Breathe... Sight, Acquire, Fire... repeat until secure.

Afterall, theoretically these guys aren't just fighting for their own lives, they're fighting for their families, their country, their right to live. Someone in that situation has not only desire to live, but the responsibility to keep on living and fighting. Would this sort of serious fighter don a bright orange life-vest, wear a big blue bat-man cape, waste ammo like these guys unless it was supporting/suppressive fire for a coordinated action, and generally make no effort to make each bullet count and each life lost mean something? There may be serious fighters over there, and probably are, who know the stakes... I submit what we see in this thread are the losers and 'gangsta' element, those who are feeding on the chaos for ego with no thought for the consequences of their actions.

[Megahurtz]

Re: A Formal Apology...

BF2 Gangsta' Fo' Shizzle Mod:In da Hood

[imported_Fig]

Re: A Formal Apology...

Anyways, they wouldn't fight that way, however idiotic it may be, IF IT DIDN'T KILL PEOPLE. These guys are fighting, and beating a real(however poorly trained) military force.

You cannot disupte this: You just said that this figting style they use is effective.

Repeat: Az-Amerikai says that the way the people pictured and videod in this document fight is an effective combat style.

I'm not even going to argue that. It's so obvious its wrong, its litterally painful for me to try to explain why.

They care only for themselves?! I cannot begin to comprehend the foolishness of that statement. They're fighting for their comrades, friends, family, and ultimatley their country. Find me one of them who simply cares about themselves.

Perhaps I am in the grammatical wrong here, but I meant 'themselves' as 'them, thier clan, and thier family and loved ones' not 'himself/herself'.

They fight for thier own clan, with little regard for the common population.

Thats a better, less grammatically complex rephrasment of what I meant.

And are you judging people you've never met before?

Yes. I am. Forgive me Lord, I have sinned. I'm sorry, but I find it within my right to critisize and judge people for the sake of conversation. I am not being tottally unreasonable nor am I filled with hate, the two things I do not accept as legitimate conversation. You again forget this is an onine forum, meant for discussion. Of course I am going to judge people I have never met before.

You sir, are the arrogant *******. I'd pit one of those guys aganist 5 of your scrawny little asses anyday

While I do admit I'm scrawny (5'9' 130lbs), I don't think thats a very fair fight. I mean, If you are assuming that the 5 mes and the 1 other guy have identical weaponry, and this guy is using his infamous figthing style... You can't really think he'd have a chance in hell.

Tactical Markman, thanks for the props, and I tottaly agree with you on your stance on weapons and self defense as well. In a nutshell, outlawing guns means only the criminals have them, NO MATTER what the government tries to do to stop it. There will always be a black market, bad guys will always get weapons somehow if they really want to commit a crime. Knowing that any house you try to steal from might potentially have a very angry man leveling a shotgun/pistol/rifle/etc at you upon entry is a mighty powerful deterent in my eyes. That was a very well written post.

I think you are the BEST example I have seen on the web of a responsible gun owner in America. I'm also honored that you would use an insult aimed at me as your sig. lol.

[imported_Iridium]

Re: A Formal Apology...

I never meant to imply that you'd don a life vest and blue cape, Tactical_Marksman. What i meant is that if there was a civil war in this country, you'd probably be doing something to keep yourself, your family, and your community safe and free. The bright vests, capes, and "gangsta" behavior is part of the culture over there. Posturing and intimidation works in situations where the enemy isn't prefectly trained, cold blooded killers. Thats what we are seeing here.

And to Room420, i'm not leading a moral crusade here, I'm just reminding people that these photos are of real people in real danger far greater than anything most of us have ever faced (veterans aside, of course). I may have come across strongly, but i never called for a lock or claimed that this sort of thing shouldn't be allowed.

As a note, however, some people are critiscising the people and the situation. I just felt that someone had to point out that these people weren't ignorant fools, even though through the lens of our culture it might look that way. Remember, in anarchy, natural selection works fast. These people aren't idiots, because they're still alive.