AA for total dummies in 5 minutes

[imported_bigpappa]

Re: AA for total dummies in 5 minutes

if AA actually workded then this thread would have more meaning....

[Warbird_7]

Re: AA for total dummies in 5 minutes

Heh, its easy for you to say, perhaps you would like to bet?
1- Anyone who think they have any chance of dog fighting a J-10 in a JSF is automatically a noob, and so are you for suggesting it.

Um...that seems to be more of a personal attack than a counterpoint. Okay, "iewgnem", you've made your stance on this issue clear, but for what reasons? Is the J-10 more manuverable? Do the weapons track better?

2- Perhaps you would like to go into an AA and see if my JSF can kill you over and over again? Or perhaps you would like to get on Oman and see how I kill 2 JSF with my Mig?

Um, once again, there really isn't any real counterpoint here; or really any logic. You state that if someone were to enter an AA (note: did not define if "AA" refers to a stationary platform or a mobile one, assuming there is a difference in your opinion) you would, "...kill [them] over and over again..."

Why would you be able to do this? Is it the placement of the AA? Is it the lack of cover around the AA? Again, I ask you to state your opinion on this; rather than, for lack of a better word, boast of your ability to destroy them.

3- My AA states suck? haha, yeah thats true, im not noob enough to get into one in the first place, I dont have suicidital tendencies, perhaps you do?

Stats don't reflect effective strategy; they show preference. But that aside, this isn't an arguement over stats, this is a thread offering tips of effective use of AA.

Heh, which is interesting since you are about the ONLY one i have seen around the forum so far defending the effectiveness of AA turrets. Tell me, does all your missiles hit Blackhawk all the time?

Do your missiles hit 100% of the time?

How long does it take for you to kill it?

When it's dead, it's dead. It has ended its useful life in the hands of the enemy. I'm not sure of what speed has to do with this matter.

I did try other maps, and to be honest AA is useless in every map.

Now this has the potential to make a good arguement. Explain why AA is ineffective on every map.

Im afraid you are not very clear on the effectiveness of AA

And likewise, you have said little to prove its ineffectiveness.

any attempt to argue AA is more effective than 1% is obviously coming from a noob.

This statement is a personal attack, not an arguement. It has no merit.

does it say its useful? no,

Where is this said?

does it say you will die more than you kill? yes

Where does it say this?

You could add a valuable insight into how pilots view AA, saying what works and what doesn't, but your comments thus far have been personal attacks, statements without sufficient evidence to back them up, and irrelavencies.

Please do not take this as a flame, I am genuinely interested in your opinions on AA; but I'd like you to express them more clearly, objectively, and maturely.

[hollowpoint367]

Re: AA for total dummies in 5 minutes

I find that whoring the gun on the Essex, not the missiles, is much much much more effective

[imported_bigpappa]

Re: AA for total dummies in 5 minutes

i shot helo's almost point blank and they miss everytime..

[mecspecialist]

Re: AA for total dummies in 5 minutes

Im afraid it was you who should learn to read

Sorry, that i'm not the UBER-elite Jet-Whore, like you

Heh, its easy for you to say, perhaps you would like to bet?

Nothing to bet - there are skilled players out, who know how to handle AA. If you take a look e.g. at bftracker - Air Defense you will see what i'm talking about. Again, try other maps and we can discuss - else shut up!

1- Anyone who think they have any chance of dog fighting a J-10 in a JSF is automatically a noob, and so are you for suggesting it.

YOU are one pathetic bitch - nothing else. What do you have to proof ? - Yes, nothing, except you are a lousy looser. You NEED a J-10 to keep your ass in the air ountouched, a skilled pilot with a lot of practice will also be able to shoot a not so skilled pilot out of his seat with any jet, regardless the oponent is flying in a J-10 or not. Accepted you are obviously not able to do so...

2- Perhaps you would like to go into an AA and see if my JSF can kill you over and over again? Or perhaps you would like to get on Oman and see how I kill 2 JSF with my Mig?

LOL - with a total time of 07:48:28 in OMAN you are so UBER elite :laugh: and soo experienced - accepted!

3- My AA states suck? haha, yeah thats true, im not noob enough to get into one in the first place, I dont have suicidital tendencies, perhaps you do?

Yes you suck - you are solely a J-10-Jet-Whore with absolutley limited and limited overall game-skills. Your Team Kills, Damage, & Vehicle Damage of 498 / 112 / 211 are telling a true story about how 'useful' you are for a team :p. To get stats like you, one has to 'whore' any jet at any map, pushing in an egoistic way team-mates aside just to grab the jet - leech...not giving others a chance to fly, too.
...suicidital tendencies... - you can think what you want, so i can. Your arguments will not get better so.

Huh? If I want to get more points I would tell everyone to get into AA and repeat, its common knowledge, are you sure you feel alright? What is this "cheapest way"? Certainly a kill cant get any easier than 2 sec burst kill on an AA turret?

Isn't it the cheapest way, what you are playing so far :laugh: ? Counting your total time played and comparing it to the other stats - i would say: Very egoistic 'PLA-Jet-Whore' with limited overall experience and skills. http://bf2s.com/player/iewgnem/

Heh, which is interesting since you are about the ONLY one i have seen around the forum so far defending the effectiveness of AA turrets. Tell me, does all your missiles hit Blackhawk all the time? How long does it take for you to kill it? I can tell you from experience you only require a canon from a jet 5 sec or less to kill a Blackhawk, maybe you would want to share your experience with using missiles?

- you should read better *g*. I am not the ONLY one around 'defending' the effectiveness of AA *g* - stupid! EA/Dice has been aware already some time ago about the obvious AA-flaws and thx they will invent some changes with the new patch, coming soon. Ahhh, now you are saying something useful: '...does all your missiles hit Blackhawk all the time? How long does it take for you to kill it?...'
That is really worth to discuss.
No - e.g. the IGLAS of the MECs don't hit steadily and in a somewhat 'predictable' way...as far as i consider my own experiences with that and the many other posts about this topic at various other forums/boards. That might be 'one' point for EA/Dice to work on that for the new patch. How long it takes to bring down a BH? I would say: It depends on a lot of factors...
Maybe most important for me, jumping in the AA at hotel (MEC Oman) is how does the pilot fly (the way how the pilot handles his thingy). Some skilled BH-pilots know the Oman-Map perfectly and are using the terrain better than others do. Furthermore important for me, how the gunners behave, or better what do i see AND hear...bullets approching or not. Are their team-mates at hotel too, a tank/APC etc.
Basically i jump into the AA very, very late. I'll stay on the ground besides the AA as long as possible - still many gunners simply 'forget' about an unmanned AA. Then with the BH already in the inner Hotel-circle i'm jumping into (MX518 at 1600 DPI for ultrafast turns) the AA and fire - many times not waiting until complete lock and most time 2 missiles hit and destroy the BH. But that depends really to the situation. E.g. if i see a BH between hotel and the next flag slightly to the right with just released flares, i take the AA at once wide above the AA to get out of the flare-lock. It takes only seconds to relock then onto the BH and they are off in 90%.

Helis are an easy target for every jet-pilot, who has played and trained a couple of time - regardless which jet the pilot is flying. Some jets are more ''handy', some need more training with, but generally said IMHO after some time everybody is able to nail a heli down. But for further 'digging' into that stuff i would like to recommend [CANADA]_Zenmaster's writing at bf2s.com. He's a PLA-Jet-Whore too , but for sure one of the more really likeable guys! I have played with him and against him (team/server) and he does not TK for vehicles and also let other's fly, if they are waiting for the jet in a 'chain'. And - he does share a lot of very, very useful experiences with the BF2-community, including videos - he's a 'white hat' :)

I did try other maps, and to be honest AA is useless in every map. Im afraid you are not very clear on the effectiveness of AA, everyone, even noobs know how useless AAs are, how they are death traps against even the least experienced jet pilot, on any map, maybe you should go and try some yourself.

Maybe we COULD come to an agreement that you better should not generalize so much. Terms like 'is useless' do NOT reflect (IMHO) the whole story about AAs. '...Im afraid you are not very clear on the effectiveness of AA...' - I'm very, very clear about AAs , for sure...
'...death traps against even the least experienced jet pilot...' - not in general, i would say. AAs CAN be 'Death traps' yes, so can tanks/APCs, simply everything on ground, if an experienced pilot is attacking and the pilots of the own team suck...
I am playing all maps, just the way they are coming in the map-cycle, since i have paid EA/Dice 'hard earned' money for BF2 and BF2:SF (Special Forces).
And yes, i have also filed a complaint towards EA and Dice (like 1000s others) about the need of improvement for the AAs and to 'weaken' the jets at least a lil bit. Maybe the steady moaning of the majority about the weak AAs have led towards the changes in the approaching new patch - we will see.
IMHO there is a need for changing it. Players, new to the game with just having bought the game, will more and more get disappointed the longer the BF2-game 'runs'. They get 'exploited' as easy targets for stats-padders by stupid spawn-killings, boring bombing-runs etc. (Read posts on EA forums and other boards).
(Honestly - why you don't use your feet and play some more time as infantery? Yes, i know - you like flying, you are a jet-maniac and you have finally bought BF2 solely for flying J-10 - ok with that...)
But ever thought, that 'new players' also want to get into a jet and fly? But the whole Vehicle-Whoring/Stats-padding issue is a different issue :evil:
...there are not enough vehicles in the game, that everone can grab one...*g*

Bottom line, let me tell you this, I congradulate you on not joining those who whines about AA constantly, but what you are doing is daydreaming, AA are useless, maybe it works against choppers but absolutely useless against any jet other than bomber (in which case it is still difficult). Missiles miss 99% of the time, any attempt to argue AA is more effective than 1% is obviously coming from a noob.

Yes - i am not 'whining' about the problems with the AAs in general, but as already told, i am fully aware about the (current) limitations to AAs. BUT, again your statement '...any attempt...AA is more effective than 1% is obviously coming from a noob...' is MORE sounding coming from a noob, or better coming from an ignorant Jet-Whore, limited to the J-10 and PLA-maps.
It is possible to take out jets with stationary AAs, even the J-10. Even more chances to beat average pilots with the mobile AAs. It is as always: It depends to the situation and the skills on both sides - AA and Pilot. But currently the AAs do not 'work' as they should or better could, so don't the AA-missiles of the jets istself.

yeah yeah you have your tips, why dont you read the tip? does it say its useful? no, does it say you will die more than you kill? yes. Does it say AA are underpowered? yes. I have seen that tip ages ago and I can tell you one thing, it only encourages suicide.

:laugh: - what a poor mind you are...Again, fly, fly, fly your J-10 *g* - maybe it is your assignation to feel so UBER Elite with your l33t pilot-skillz.
But 1.) your postings remain priceless
2.) fly, baby fly *g*

With a big portion 'disrespect' :evil:...there's no need to 'reply to my post - i'll not answer to that - you are too l33t.

[AlphaNut]

Re: AA for total dummies in 5 minutes

One very good point he mentioned was not to constantly sit in AA. You must locate the plane before you are in AA, make sure he has not seen you. Jump in when he flies over you, get a lock, fire away, and get out of the suicide can.
Never give them a beep longer than 3-5 seconds. After you fired the missiles get out of there immediately! Do not wait for the impact. I've found the missiles to be more effective if you are not sitting in the SAM trying to keep the lock on target.
Just my 2 cents

[mecspecialist]

Re: AA for total dummies in 5 minutes

One very good point he mentioned was not to constantly sit in AA. You must locate the plane before you are in AA, make sure he has not seen you. Jump in when he flies over you, get a lock, fire away, and get out of the suicide can. Never give them a beep longer than 3-5 seconds. After you fired the missiles get out of there immediately! Do not wait for the impact. I've found the missiles to be more effective if you are not sitting in the SAM trying to keep the lock on target. Just my 2 cents

I second that!!

Additional info:
Armando "Aj" Marini from the 'Battlefield Team', Sentience and Community Co-ordinator EA GAMES posted on the EA-forums improvements for the next Battlefield 2 update.

New information on the 1.2 Update - BF2

'...
- Helicopter now carry 8 missiles rather than 14
- TV-Guided missile now have a shorter range
- Hit points on all air vehicles has been reduced
- AA missile lock has been improved
- Damage decreased for the M134 (BH-gun)
...'

Looks like the EA-/Dice-Gods are listening...

[Moke]

Re: AA for total dummies in 5 minutes

lol... owned by Warbird

[King Taylor]

Re: AA for total dummies in 5 minutes

lol... owned by Warbird

oh god yes he was! lol that was probably the best response to any post i have ever seen, see guys you can make a point without flaming (who wood hav thunk it?)

[iewgnem]

Re: AA for total dummies in 5 minutes

Um...that seems to be more of a personal attack than a counterpoint. Okay, "iewgnem", you've made your stance on this issue clear, but for what reasons? Is the J-10 more manuverable? Do the weapons track better?

J-10 is more manuverable, period, if you dont already know that its hard to see how I can start a reasonable argument with you.

Um, once again, there really isn't any real counterpoint here; or really any logic. You state that if someone were to enter an AA (note: did not define if "AA" refers to a stationary platform or a mobile one, assuming there is a difference in your opinion) you would, "...kill [them] over and over again..."

Why would you be able to do this? Is it the placement of the AA? Is it the lack of cover around the AA? Again, I ask you to state your opinion on this; rather than, for lack of a better word, boast of your ability to destroy them.

I can only tell you how I destroy them, because I never attempted to enter an AA and die over and over again. I tell you what I know, that is AA is free kill, if you dont like that maybe you should try it yourself.

Do your missiles hit 100% of the time?

I dont see how that has anything to do with what I said, considering Im trying to argue msisiles are usless, which, to be honest, is pretty much common knowledge.

Now this has the potential to make a good arguement. Explain why AA is ineffective on every map.

yes, ok, 2 arguments
1- If you look around the forum you can easily see whine threads about AA is everywhere, obviously it must imply AA is ineffective everywhere.
2- Because any jet, even a bomber, can kill the AA in 2 seconds, the usefulness of AA is not dependant on weather its possible to hit anything with it but how many times you need to suicide inorder to get 1 kill. AA versus choppers is effective to a limited extent, but thats where it ends (again, I cant believe Im trying to convince someone of common knowledge, just like why a tank can easily kill an infantry)

This statement is a personal attack, not an arguement. It has no merit.

And who am I attacking? The problem is, even noobs know AA is useless, (therefore the whine threads), its therefore amazing for me to see anyone defending the effectiveness of AA to any extent as to be useful in a battle, rather than a 2 sec fire and leave thing.

You could add a valuable insight into how pilots view AA, saying what works and what doesn't, but your comments thus far have been personal attacks, statements without sufficient evidence to back them up, and irrelavencies.

You want evidence? hmm, this seems difficult ..... even though theres AA whine threads everywhere, which to me is evidence enough, you dont find them to be evidence, what kind of evidence are you looking for?
Its the same as, how am I suppose to come up with evidence that a guy shooting a pistol running at a tank is suppose to be anywhere near directly effective (other than achieve secondary goals, but hes dead eitherway)

As for you "mecspecialist", its not hard to see you are one ****ed off 10 years old, its difficult for someone to argue about nothing. I dont have time to get into a flame war like all the children do, just want to say one thing: go do your homework or you will fail grade school and flame the teacher about it.

[Warbird_7]

Re: AA for total dummies in 5 minutes

J-10 is more manuverable, period, if you dont already know that its hard to see how I can start a reasonable argument with you.

Um...okay. I apologize for my lack of experience in planes. I don't think I've got any hours in them at all. So, because the J-10 is more agile than the opposition's aircraft, this gives it a great advantage in a dogfight. Great! That's a valid point!

I can only tell you how I destroy them, because I never attempted to enter an AA and die over and over again. I tell you what I know, that is AA is free kill, if you dont like that maybe you should try it yourself.

Hmm...the bolded statement seems awfully defensive to me. At no point in time did I mention my personal preference towards AA (i.e. whether I like it or "dont like" it); and personally, it seems rather irrelavent. You keep telling us that if we enter AA, we will "...die over and over again." You still haven't explained why this is.

I seem to excel at destroying armor, because I shoot them from behind at a perpedicular angle. Even still, just because I am good at eliminating tanks doesn't mean that they are ineffective deathtraps. You seem to excel at destroying AA, why?

I dont see how that has anything to do with what I said, considering Im trying to argue msisiles are usless, which, to be honest, is pretty much common knowledge.

You imply that because AA missiles don't hit their target every single time, they are useless. However, I believe you cannot claim to have perfect accuracy with your ATA weapons either. Both AA platforms don't hit all the time, so why do you consider ground based AA to be so much more ineffective than your missiles?

1- If you look around the forum you can easily see whine threads about AA is everywhere, obviously it must imply AA is ineffective everywhere.

Just because there are a great deal of threads complaining, doesn't mean that AA is useless on every map. A previous poster on this thread mentioned a tactic on Zatar that seemed to be an excellent technique. Again, please explain why "...AA is ineffective everywhere."

2- Because any jet, even a bomber, can kill the AA in 2 seconds, the usefulness of AA is not dependant on weather its possible to hit anything with it but how many times you need to suicide inorder to get 1 kill. AA versus choppers is effective to a limited extent, but thats where it ends (again, I cant believe Im trying to convince someone of common knowledge, just like why a tank can easily kill an infantry)

Your analogy is flawed. Tanks are good at taking down infantry; I am good at taking down tanks with the anti-tank kit. If we apply this to our discussion of AA, it would imply that AA is just as good at taking down planes as planes are at destroying AA; which is obviously not your position.

And who am I attacking? The problem is, even noobs know AA is useless, (therefore the whine threads), its therefore amazing for me to see anyone defending the effectiveness of AA to any extent as to be useful in a battle, rather than a 2 sec fire and leave thing.

You are using the term "n00bs" in a derogatory way; making it a personal attack on all those who take a different view than you in this matter.

You want evidence? hmm, this seems difficult ..... even though theres AA whine threads everywhere, which to me is evidence enough, you dont find them to be evidence, what kind of evidence are you looking for?

Its the same as, how am I suppose to come up with evidence that a guy shooting a pistol running at a tank is suppose to be anywhere near directly effective (other than achieve secondary goals, but hes dead eitherway)

You use the right tool for the right job. AA is designed to be just that, anti-air; the same with anti-tank weaponry against tanks. Your analogy of an infantryman attacking a tank using a pistol is not applicable to this discussion.

As for you "mecspecialist", its not hard to see you are one ****ed off 10 years old, its difficult for someone to argue about nothing. I dont have time to get into a flame war like all the children do, just want to say one thing: go do your homework or you will fail grade school and flame the teacher about it.

Another pointless personal attack. Please stick to the issues.

[iewgnem]

Re: AA for total dummies in 5 minutes

Hmm, you are a difficult one :p

Hmm...the bolded statement seems awfully defensive to me. At no point in time did I mention my personal preference towards AA (i.e. whether I like it or "dont like" it); and personally, it seems rather irrelavent. You keep telling us that if we enter AA, we will "...die over and over again." You still haven't explained why this is.

how should I prove it? A video? what do you suggest. I tell you from what I know, that I havent been shot down by an AA for at least 3 weeks and for the past 3 weeks every AA that entered my HUD died within 20seconds. If thats not proff enough for you, and you dont want to try yourself, do tell me how you want me to prove it.

You imply that because AA missiles don't hit their target every single time, they are useless. However, I believe you cannot claim to have perfect accuracy with your ATA weapons either. Both AA platforms don't hit all the time, so why do you consider ground based AA to be so much more ineffective than your missiles?

Ok, I see where your problem is. The thing is, AT missiles are guided by the person, where AA missiles are guided by AI. A person can guide the missile himself, so although he misses at times he has a very good chance at hitting as long as nothing get in the way between him and the tank. Missiles on the other hand is not controled in anyway by the person firing the missiles, they are self-guided, and because of the extremly poor AI built into missiles they will miss 99% of the time, the only "skill" that could be said about firing AA is increasing the chance the extremly stupid missile AI will hit the target, but it is only chance based in the long run, and improving the chance from 99% miss to 90% miss does not help much.

Just because there are a great deal of threads complaining, doesn't mean that AA is useless on every map. A previous poster on this thread mentioned a tactic on Zatar that seemed to be an excellent technique. Again, please explain why "...AA is ineffective everywhere."

I do admit the tip on Zatar was rather impressive, however as I said above, every trick you can have on the missiles are to improve the chance it will hit, rather than actually employing your skills. AI in missiles are extremly poorly programed, perhaps the trick with Zatar could catch a few pilots by surprise, but comparing the survivbility of the AA turret with the slightly increased chance it might take down an aircraft, the AA is not worth it.

Your analogy is flawed. Tanks are good at taking down infantry; I am good at taking down tanks with the anti-tank kit. If we apply this to our discussion of AA, it would imply that AA is just as good at taking down planes as planes are at destroying AA; which is obviously not your position.

As I said above, AT missiles are guided by you, missiles are not. In addition we are talking about experiences here :p not logical conclusions. Experience says AA miss 99% of the time, the logic is therefore obviously flawed.

You are using the term "n00bs" in a derogatory way; making it a personal attack on all those who take a different view than you in this matter.

The ones that have a different view than I are not who Im descring. The "noobs" I meantioned are the whiners, which, unfortunately, shared the same argument Im trying to argue. Trust me, a month ago i would be in your position, arguing how effective AA is and how EA should dismiss all requests at improving missiles, thus maintaining my aeral dominance over everything else. However I have grown to realize the facts stands against me dispite my best efforts to argue otherwise.

You use the right tool for the right job. AA is designed to be just that, anti-air; the same with anti-tank weaponry against tanks. Your analogy of an infantryman attacking a tank using a pistol is not applicable to this discussion.

perhaps, when you are looking at the activity involved, they do not share anything in common, however when you look at what was put into the action and what was the outcome they are exactly the same. What is the chance a pistol will kill a tank? : 0%. What are the chances an AA turret will kill a competent pilot? 1%. 1>0, but they are both too small to be significant. Again you will ask me to "prove" missiles have 1% chance of actually hitting, why, (perhaps Im repeating my previous arguments) dont you use some "experimental reasoning" rather than deductive reasoning and figure it out your self. Now as for the outcome, a tank might not see the man with the pistol, just as the jet might not see the AA turret, however if they do get spoted, both are simply a matter of aim and shoot without risk.

Another pointless personal attack. Please stick to the issues.

Im not refering to you, I dont have the time or interest in getting into a flame war with a 12 years old, that shut him up didnt it. Now forget about him.

[Warbird_7]

Re: AA for total dummies in 5 minutes

Ok, I see where your problem is. The thing is, AT missiles are guided by the person, where AA missiles are guided by AI. A person can guide the missile himself, so although he misses at times he has a very good chance at hitting as long as nothing get in the way between him and the tank. Missiles on the other hand is not controled in anyway by the person firing the missiles, they are self-guided, and because of the extremly poor AI built into missiles they will miss 99% of the time, the only "skill" that could be said about firing AA is increasing the chance the extremly stupid missile AI will hit the target, but it is only chance based in the long run, and improving the chance from 99% miss to 90% miss does not help much.

Ah! Excellent! Fantastic! This is exactly what I was looking for; the reason why AA is ineffective is because of the faulty AI. Your comparison of the anti-tank being guided by a person vs. the AA missile being guided by programming was very enlightening! This successfully counters all of my points and answers all of my questions. Thank you very much for clearing this up.

Im not refering to you, I dont have the time or interest in getting into a flame war with a 12 years old, that shut him up didnt it. Now forget about him.

I am aware that you didn't direct that comment at me; I just don't like to see personal attacks directed against anyone (even if they do deserve it).

[EvilP]

Re: AA for total dummies in 5 minutes

I recommend aiming the AA as far BEHIND the target as you can so the missile gets to turn into the path of the target more. Doesn't help a lot, but seems a lot better than aiming ahead of them where the stupid missile turns the opposite way of the target flight path...

[kewl e-man]

Re: AA for total dummies in 5 minutes

good post