Defense, and the lack of it.

[Paas]

I defend a lot, or "Camp" in the eyes of some people. It's very "Team-Rewarding", so to speak. But. I often find I'm alone. I mean... not like alone as in I don't have a squad to back me up; but completely void of any kind of assistance. Even the commander often leaves the primary flag in search of a gun-fight...

I know defending doesn't bring as much instant excitement as assault does, but, it's still a vital part of this game. In truth, on most maps if you don't defend then you lose; simple. 16 Player Karkand, the MEC side, is a PRIME example of this. People pat themselves on the back, drool over each others lovely scores, but have no idea that the solitary AT sitting at the primary flag waiting on the APC rush in the ONLY reason they were alotted a chance to put up a fight... it's kinda' annoying, yet rewarding. Not in a sense of score either because defending your teams assets usually only nets you about 5 points per round on average; people learn quickly that the APC or Tank rush is moot when someone is back there defending (Same goes for the quick helo-capture)

So.. rather than make this TOO long I'll get to my question. Why is there such a distinct lack of defenders? I personally love the job; good AT and Engineer are almost impossible to cap a base from unless you have a pretty sizeable attacking squad.

After mah' intial question is answered I propose this; What could EA/Dice do to make the concept of Defending valid in-game? Even though it's already almost mandatory for at least on defender to sit back at a base less it risk getting capped by an Kamakazi Tank Runner and leaving his team in the classic "Bottleneck".

Just some food for thought. Any "PRODUCTIVE" feedback is welcomed. Thanks.

{WP}Paas

[WolfAlmighty]

Re: Defense, and the lack of it.

Most people think defending a base is boring, and it doesn't help their SPM. Sad but true. I enjoy defending, and yes I know what you mean with the all alone feeling. Even the best AT trooper cannot handle two APCs and a tank rolling into the base all at once, and that's what I'm often faced with. I hope they somehow fix the landmine TK thing in the patch because IMO there is no better base defender than the engineer, with his landmines to stop vehicles from rolling in and his shotgun to mow down the infantry in CQC, but right now putting landmines anywhere NEAR one of your bases pretty much assures you'll start out the game with at least -8 points and maybe even a kick from the server.

But anyway, most people prefer to be where the constant fighting and reviving are, so that's where they head off to. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

~Wolfgang

[Ruhanga]

Re: Defense, and the lack of it.

Flag capture is 2 points. Defend 1.

Yes, defending is a strange thing to do. Not rewarding but important? This is one of those things that every dev team forgets.

[Paas]

Re: Defense, and the lack of it.

Yeah. I guess the lust for points does tend to rule out defending. Somthing that trips me out though is a lot of servers kick for defending your primary base. The consider it camping. I'm not too sure how they came to this conclusion but, I find myself on the muzzle-end of the BAN rifle often because of mah' tactic.

I hope EA does something about this in their upcoming patch. Although, I truely don't know WHAT that could do.

{WP}Paas

[PersonalKIllingMachinePKM]

Re: Defense, and the lack of it.

I agree with you and i think defence should be made more important, but there are too many points on the map to care about defence until the last one of course. Last stands are always fun though....

[MindBlowing]

Re: Defense, and the lack of it.

The problem is whenever your team is losing or winning you don't get points for that so who actually cares to defend instead of capturing flags for more points ? In the sense of most players it's most rewarding to cap flags and not defend as you get more points anyway.

That's how I see it

[f0xtr0t_0ne]

Re: Defense, and the lack of it.

good analogy is sports. offense sells tickets, defense wins games.

capture flags = 4 points i believe
and its more fun to roam around.

defendinga flag = 1 point
more layed back

i like defending if im playing with someone in the same room. communication is better, you can look at each other's screens and you can help each other out.
or if i already played my 12 hours and just want to chill for a while.

correct me if im wrong on points. thanks

chris

[Fedtkarl]

Re: Defense, and the lack of it.

I love defense too, but I think you forgot an important character in the defensive tactics.. The spec ops with his C4. Put 2 piece of C4 in the concrete base of the flag where it isnt visible and 2 more on the top. The last piece of C4 goes where you expect an APC or Tank to stop for capping of the flag.

Hide away and wait for you moment. Easy kills and all with extra points for defending the flag. Besides that you have a guy with a good gun for medium to long range combat combined with the good close combat engineer.

A great defense squad imo would be a supporter (squadleader), AT-guy, Engineer and a spec ops. Maybe leave the AT guy out and hope for the spec ops guy to deal with armor only. Afterall there aint much power in one AT guy alone.

[Neat_Hedgehog]

Re: Defense, and the lack of it.

I know what you guys mean. Last night I stuck around mainly at the base in I-forget-what-map with C4. I would go out into the road that led to the base and hide them next to little pieces of rock and rubble, then return to base and wait. About every five minutes like clockwork an enemy vehicle would come along and get blown sky high. But if I had gone rushing out with the rest of my team, it would have been an easy undefended flag capture.

Once or twice I had one other person there with me to defend the base. But they were usually accused of camping, and so they rushed off, leaving me to put up with all the "camping n00b" stuff by myself. Little did they realise that I probably saved them quite a few points that game.

[Darkfysh]

Re: Defense, and the lack of it.

I think that a Defend flag, should be different. The closer an enemy is to friendly flag, the more teampoints you should get when you kill them. 3 in immediate area, 2 just outside that area, and 1 for farther away.

What do you think?

[ConscriptVirus]

Re: Defense, and the lack of it.

its just that ppl dont care if htey die...so theyre always attacking and defending can get boring ifur not doing anything and ppl didnt spend 50 bucks to do nothing

[ConscriptVirus]

Re: Defense, and the lack of it.

also..whenever i defend..even with my squad...usually about 10 seconds later we see a whole armada of apcs and tanks heading our way and we have nothing to attack it with...usually a lost cuase

[antseezee]

Re: Defense, and the lack of it.

I've come up with some new logic. If the map has transport helos, I will defend an airbase both via my class pick and mounting myself on an air stinger.

If the map has lots of planes, I'll tend NOT to camp these points as they only attract bombers.

Really, there are only 2-3 maps where it's worth defending - Sharqi, Mashtuur, and the fog map

[varangian]

Re: Defense, and the lack of it.

To make defense more viable Dice need to sort out the AA. Currently it's more or less useless against jets and mediocre against helis, I've bagged a few jets by luck more than anything but in the process collected twice as much team vehicle damage and kills as the missiles seem to favour going after friendlies much more than the aircraft you had a lock on when you fired the damn thing.

Without proper air defence anyone on the ground is just a free kill to any reasonably skilled pilot, as someone else mentioned in the thread it means there are only a few maps where it's actually worth making the effort.

[Flatline_hun]

Re: Defense, and the lack of it.

I think the primary reason is defending players see lot less action than attacking ones. However, it can be really fun. My all-time-favourite defending position is being commander on MEC side, Mastuur. 3 c4 on flagpole, 2 to the ground, and hide away in a place where I can see the flag. If I see someone coming on my commander screen, i switch and press the switch :) BOOM.
Funny, but I think specops is a kickass defender: can kill infantry and armor as well.