Re: Thanks be to the gods!
Makes sense enough.
Originally posted by Chris_Redfield
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Re: Thanks be to the gods!
Choppers in BF2 were always meant (by DICE) to be a team vehicle for two pilots. Unfortunately the grim reality and peoples skill for adapting to the negatives associated with varying skill level lead to what we see today. People will abuse the system, if they can. Doesnt mean they are wrong. Its just how things work.Originally posted by Kingkat54
One of the drastic fixes would be to either add a significant cooldown to using weapons in a vehicle after switching seats (as seatswitching in choppers I personally see is a survival mechanism if your pilot gets hot down) or disable weapons (for the gunner) for the attack helo if the game recognizes only one person in the vehicle.
In POE2, helicopters were redesigned entirely. For different sides the pilot and the copilot performed different functions and the TVGM for the Hind was gimped so you couldnt steer the missile upwards enough for it to be a viable Anti-Air weapon.
For BF2, that would be awesome. For BC2, that would be progress.My point................its a Team effort to win. Even if all you do is taxi a few friends into the action...............maybe there should be some XP Points for that...? JO had that!!!!!Comment
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Re: Thanks be to the gods!
Apparently you know me better than I do myself! I've never been interested in being the ace fighter pilot on my team so I nearly always stayed away from them. Occasionally I would hop in as a gunner to rack up some easy points and support a pilot and rarely have I piloted a chopper for very long. I wasn't terrible at it, but it just didn't hold my interest. However, I have flown transports numerous times as they're actually much more beneficial to a team as a whole, especially in 2142 and have had my share of instances where a really awful player was piloting a transport and we crashed or I spawned on one right as the pilot bailed, leaving me no time to figure out what was going until until I was already back waiting to respawn. However, it has never ruined the game for me and I certainly didn't mind that much, as there were plenty of cases where I hopped in a transport with a very capable pilot.Originally posted by Chris_Redfield
I'm not looking for "improvement" when I play a BF2142. I'm looking for squad-based teamwork and a some hours of good, senseless, and entertaining video game violence. I'm not looking for the pinnacle of simulated air-based combat. Do you look for improvement when you watch a movie or TV?
If I want improvement I'll go practice an instrument or work on my homework.Comment
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Re: Thanks be to the gods!
Ace pilot? Today in BF2, even the "average soloer" will rape a chopper crew consisting of a clueless gunner and an experienced pilot. The whole point you keep ignoring is that unless the choppers potential is utilized, it will end up in a charred carcass not too far from the runway/carrier. Choppers have become a much more popular "duel" platforms than jets.Originally posted by jake_
Youre not a dedicated pilot either. Some of us like the game for its other aspects than just infantry play, so we have to deal with the negatives of a vehicle limited in numbers, far more often than you.
You completely misunderstood the point. Im talking about every time you play being the same to the last one in terms of your results, "fun" factor and skill, while the more dedicated players move ahead. With time, enough players become good enough to elevate the average skill level of the chopper crews, and at that point going head-on against a competent cew or an average soloer with your FFAR-s will end up in a disaster. This isnt BF2142 either, where the pilot has Fire-and-Forget missiles so you can somewhat equalize the fight if youre going against an ace. Piloting isnt your primary aspect, it is for a lot of people, though, and youre dismissing them because of "your own illusion of how the game is supposed to be played".I'm not looking for "improvement" when I play a BF2142. I'm looking for squad-based teamwork and a some hours of good, senseless, and entertaining video game violence. I'm not looking for the pinnacle of simulated air-based combat. Do you look for improvement when you watch a movie or TV?
If that would make you see things with an open mind and face the realities of this game, then maybe you should.If I want improvement I'll go practice an instrument or work on my homework.Comment
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Re: Thanks be to the gods!
You got my point there..........Chris_Redfield................but I've also wondered if a "class" of aviator would have been good. Maybe some better skills at flying as you progressed. Like the advanced vehicle Stuff you gain as you progress in game, armor ,etc.
Not that he'd be the only pilot, but just better at flying allround.Comment
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Re: Thanks be to the gods!
Well that's impractical and virtually impossible to do at this point in BF 2. I created a new account a while ago, my friend and I were in the chopper (22 hours on that account) and we were getting the best of the other chopper crew (who were also clan members of the server). They said that there was no way we could be that good with that amount of time in the chopper. We said we could come back with our 3 star general accounts (original accounts) and they said that that it wouldn't matter. OK, that makes sense.Originally posted by Chris_Redfield
I think 100 hours is more than enough to lean how to use the chopper. After than, it's just little refinements. What's so great about this game is there are many of these things you can learn.
Right now in BF 2, there isn't much separation from the two. If you are high enough and even flying slightly down, your chopper will continue it's path while you are shotting the TVGM. Even if you are just hovering, you still spin in circles (though you are an easier target).The major hole in your idea lies in the fact that controlling the chopper, and using its best weapon (TVGM) were separate.
But in a new game, they can be separated more and it seems they have. If the chopper in BC 2 fails fast and the ceiling isn't that high in the game (since there are no jets, that makes sense). I am not saying soling isn't a useful tactic in BF 2, with the right person flying, it is. What I am saying is, that in a new game, I am glad they are adding ways to prevent it from being useful.
This isn't to say I can't do it, because I can. But I am more of a team player and would like it to have 2 players working together to be as effective as it can be. Luckily, I have 2 friends that can hold their own, so ultimately, it's not a problem for me.
Similar to the black hawk guns being nerfed? While they were way over powered at the start, they went to be useless after a specific path. I think the TVGM needs a reduction in the amount of damage it does as it's way to easy to kill armor and other ground targets. I am all for certain vehicles having advantages over others. But what I don't like is only a few people controlling the game for the rest of the server. This has been a problem in BF 2 (jets/choppers).Have I ever questioned that? The idea of "balance" some of you guys seem to have are associated with making vehicles shoot spaghetti.
I have been on teams where we got our butts kicked and been the one doing the butt kicking. Either way, it's really not that fun of a game (well, maybe from time to time :thumbsup:). A good game is one that is evenly matched, those our the games that you want to play over and over.
I am only being hypocritical if I only played one aspect of the game. If you look at my states (for what their worth), you will see that play the entire game to some degree (kits/vehicles/maps). Granted I tend to do some more than others, but that's what the squad needs most of the time.Now youre being hypocritical. I *am* somewhat experienced-to-good in every aspect of BF2. Are you? I played infantry, armor, air. 50% time spent on the ground, the other 50% is divided between vehicles 35/15 for air/ground.
While I am don't have the best aim out there, I am good to very good in every aspect of the game (sniper/jets are my weakest points). I am very rounded player that understand the game's individual pieces and how they fit together. I tend to play in squads and for the benefit of the team (I defend more than most).
I have played most of this game with either 1-5 friends (averaging 2-3). I started on the ground as infantry/tank/apc. After a while, some of us learned how to fly the chopper and eventually became good enough in it. I personally wanted to learn how to fly jets as this has always been a challenge for me and it actually helped me stay alive on the ground because I became more familiar with the mindset of a pilot.I used to only fly for technical reasons aswell as personal preference, I had higher FPS in air, naturally. I also found the 1 vs 1 dogfighting aspect very challenging. I gradually moved down from air to infantry and armor after Ive found likeminded people to play with. I can say Ive experienced the all-aspect combat in Battlefield 2 to its fullest. Have you?
And to answer your question directly... I have experienced the "all-aspect" combat in BF 2 to it's fullest. While my stats may not tell you how good of a player I am (they are always skewed), it can't lie about the time I have spent on the game and what areas of it I have played (kits/vehicles/maps).
I agree that the dogfighting aspects of jets is very challenging and the best part about flying them.
The subject of balance is very complex and obviously subjective. To me, the problem starts with jets, then choppers, then snipers, then everything else. For example, I find it fairly stupid that a jet can target a DPV or even a TOW. I am not saying it can't in real life, I am saying it's stupid for a game. My general philosophy is that the higher you are on the food chain (jets=sharks), the less effect you should have on the lowest level (infantry=tuna?).Having been on both ends of the rape-stick in the air, on the ground and in the middle, aswell as having had the pleasure of discussing BF2 balance with a lot of similarily all-around experienced people, it can open your mind on whats balanced and whats equal and whats required for the full package to work.
Was this Point of Existence? If so, I have played that mod a decent amount. I really like that mod as it did seem to have a fairly balanced game play. If not, then let me know which one you are referring to. :)Dont take my word for it, some people ganged up and made a mod based on their vision of proper BF2 balance.That mod had more than 2000 players online at any given time on its launch week, and continued to hold high numbers until a patch from DICE broke it and irreversably damaged its player count.Comment
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Re: Thanks be to the gods!
One of the suggestions given by the helicopter crowd was to enforce a certain "licence" system, you go through a series of trials in a kind of a singleplayer experience, and if you pass them, you get to enter that particular attack vehicle. Naturally transport vehicles would require no licence (except Black Hawks, of course). This suggestion was positively met only by the same people who proposed it.Originally posted by Kingkat54Comment
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Re: Thanks be to the gods!
You were very likely to have flown against people with similar or lower skillset. And you said you were playing with alternate accounts. You pretty much confirmed that you require experience to perform well.Originally posted by Odedge
I think the timescale of a chopper pilot goes just like the timescale for any vehicle use in BF2.I think 100 hours is more than enough to lean how to use the chopper. After than, it's just little refinements. What's so great about this game is there are many of these things you can learn.
At 50 you can confidently fly the thing around, but dont have any battlefield awareness yet. Ive seen my fair share of 100 hour pilots and the gap between a 100 and 300 hour jet pilot isnt in "refinements", the gap is huge. Then of course theres the intensity of "training" and experience from former games, but thats how Ive seen things work out in BF2. ~300 is the magical limit where a player in the gameshaping vehicle in the game (armor in Karkand, air on air maps) starts winning the rounds for the team, and does it on a regular basis.
My mistake, I misconstructed the sentence. Comes with the habbit of typing as fast as formulating thoughts and not giving it another look. Let me simplify and rephrase that, it cant be a teamvehicle the vehicle-defining weapon requires immense skill and reliance on someone who might perform less than adequately, while you can easily swap seats and utilize the vehicle yourself. In the same time, if you separate pilot/gunner completely, youll get an addition to the already nasty habbit of redlining and other forms of griefing (even suggested) as shown in this thread.Right now in BF 2, there isn't much separation from the two. If you are high enough and even flying slightly down, your chopper will continue it's path while you are shotting the TVGM. Even if you are just hovering, you still spin in circles (though you are an easier target).
The best fix for soloing is not through limitations which gimp the experience, but through additional value given by the copilot without gimping the choppers survivability.But in a new game, they can be separated more and it seems they have. If the chopper in BC 2 fails fast and the ceiling isn't that high in the game (since there are no jets, that makes sense). I am not saying soling isn't a useful tactic in BF 2, with the right person flying, it is. What I am saying is, that in a new game, I am glad they are adding ways to prevent it from being useful.
I dont, many dont actually. Facing a chopper crew consisting of two equally skilled players, knowing that if you were alone you could beat them, but being gimped by a person shooting cannons at tanks while youre facing a situation where youll be taken down with the first TVGM- that adds a lot to the Battlefield experience. I havent flown choppers in BC2. If theyve made it so that this frustration is no longer an issue, then its awesome.This isn't to say I can't do it, because I can. But I am more of a team player and would like it to have 2 players working together to be as effective as it can be. Luckily, I have 2 friends that can hold their own, so ultimately, it's not a problem for me.
Honestly, I thought the concept of a TVGM is awesome. Its only overpowered because noone knew how skilled people could become at it, or how a rise in macro use could overly simplify it (even though it just brings it to BF2142 level).
A Black Hawk at the start was *only* overpowered because 3 Engineers could fix it at the same time. If only one engy could do it, it would be a viable platform as is. Unfortunately, DICE-s overboard patching philosophy meant that they took away the guns *and* the armor, making the vehicle useless.Similar to the black hawk guns being nerfed? While they were way over powered at the start, they went to be useless after a specific path. I think the TVGM needs a reduction in the amount of damage it does as it's way to easy to kill armor and other ground targets. I am all for certain vehicles having advantages over others. But what I don't like is only a few people controlling the game for the rest of the server. This has been a problem in BF 2 (jets/choppers).
A TVGM is a completely skill-dependant weapon. But the whole design choice for vehicles was overly simplified and nobody apparently thought how high the skill level could reach. In order to balance the TVGMs, you cant nerf them to suit the weakest players, effectively making the game forgiving for everyone but the better players. This is not how these things work. You reward skill and you punish inexperience, this is the primary incentive for improving yourself in the game. Youd have to effectively redesign the whole game, and its a weak solution. Instead, just add a counter that is equally fun to use. Problem solved.
Unfortunately youre forgetting the human factor. Only thing which makes the game unbalanced is people stacking up. Clans playing on same sides, pilots switching over to not to face a challenge. Admins kicking better players from opposing teams. Et cetera. Stuff like this makes for far more unenjoyable games than agressively effective air power. I can evade jets, its the situation awareness you get with experience. To an extent you can even evade choppers (and easily counter them with light vehicles). You cant evade the whole opposing team for very long. I assume you use xfire, and you have some friends who like to collect scores of their great perfomance (score screenshots), see how the kills and deaths for both teams were divided. Youll instantly see a major difference.I have been on teams where we got our butts kicked and been the one doing the butt kicking. Either way, it's really not that fun of a game (well, maybe from time to time :thumbsup:). A good game is one that is evenly matched, those our the games that you want to play over and over.
Same name as on the forums?I am only being hypocritical if I only played one aspect of the game. If you look at my states (for what their worth), you will see that play the entire game to some degree (kits/vehicles/maps). Granted I tend to do some more than others, but that's what the squad needs most of the time.
Its not subjective if you can test the solutions out and account for the most important variable which is people. There is a simple and easy set of changes or redesigns to make it so that a jet can still deliver that stalemate-breaking punch where necessary, while not being able to be everywhere at once and have its impact everywhere, at all times. Making it useless against infantry is going by DICE philosophy and it ultimately leads to neutered vehicles which have little to no effect on infantry. A soldier doesnt win the game. A soldier capping flags with his teammates in higher tier vehicles cleaning those flags up for him, wins the game. For all I care, there could be a nuke in BF2, if it was matched with a fastmoving DPV with a rail cannon on top. Making sure that a high-impact vehicle which was fun to use, was countered with another high-impact vehicle, equally fun to use, will create necessary balance both in skill, aswell as the "Rock-Paper-Scissor" type of balance DICE kept talking about.The subject of balance is very complex and obviously subjective. To me, the problem starts with jets, then choppers, then snipers, then everything else. For example, I find it fairly stupid that a jet can target a DPV or even a TOW. I am not saying it can't in real life, I am saying it's stupid for a game. My general philosophy is that the higher you are on the food chain (jets=sharks), the less effect you should have on the lowest level (infantry=tuna?).
As an infantry troop, one of the regular Battlefield moments in BF2 was knowing and anticipating the incoming bomber and warning your squad. One of the most rewarding part of it was when some poor bloke ignored the warning and asked me how I knew. Fear of death makes you adapt, so to speak. You should not be scared of the person in the vehicle, but the vehicle itsself. Thats what the Battlefield moment is about.
Yeah, Point of Existence 2. I sunk so many hours into it over the years, until it got silent. Most of the technical solutions in the game were brilliant. Tanks fitted with flares which affected both manually guided TVGMs, aswell as Fire-and-Forget weapons, the whole armor balance, fun and reliable infantry weapons (making for far, far better infantry fights than in vBF2) and of course jets with completely different flaring techniques for air and ground threats, with different kind of area-denial counters. I assume you used to play in the TacticalGamers.com server?Was this Point of Existence? If so, I have played that mod a decent amount. I really like that mod as it did seem to have a fairly balanced game play. If not, then let me know which one you are referring to. :)
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[EDIT] Why arent the posts selfmerging?Comment
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Re: Thanks be to the gods!
They are selfmerging for me and I find it annoying :P
and DUDE, go get BC2, we need you there to test stuff and I'm not being sarcastic.Comment
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Re: Thanks be to the gods!
History has shown that testing wont lead anywhere :P
Nice to be appreciated, though.Comment
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Re: Thanks be to the gods!
The idea of a second 'license' in a product people have paid for and accepted the EULA for is not going to happen.This is a FPS with flyable helicopters, not a combat flight simulator that happens to feature ground based combat.Comment
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Re: Thanks be to the gods!
Has been done before, can be done again. In order to ensure the enjoyment for the whole team, its important to have competent players fulfilling their roles. Not 20 infantry players duking it out while 12 guys are experimenting with teams assets. Youre acting as if its impossible to make a good, entertaining, fun and effective tutorial.Originally posted by Sepp_DietrichComment
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Re: Thanks be to the gods!
I don't see why you're so hellbent on complaining about every aspect of BC2 and how it ruins gameplay and enjoyment for everyone. Obviously the game is not your cup of tea and you're not going to buy it. Why bother to continue complaining about a game that you're never going to play?Originally posted by Chris_Redfield
You're certainly never going to change anyone's mind at DICE nor the majority of players who don't have a problem with such issues.
You're in the minority on all the issues that you're raising. They may very well be valid points and problems, but you're not going to force DICE to recall all copies of BC2 and completely reprogram it. I doubt you're going to have an impact on the development of BF3 either.
Why is it so important to you that BC2 isn't what you want it to be? I initially was not impressed with BC2 and thought it wouldn't be a worthwhile buy in comparison to BF2142. Had I continued to have that mindset, I would not have bought the game and just forgotten about it, going on my merry way. I wouldn't have spent my time arguing against all the aspects of it that I dislike.
I just don't understand what you're trying to get out of all this.Comment
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Re: Thanks be to the gods!
Are you serious? Think about your post critically for a second. If you cant find the holes and issues with it, I will be very surprised.Originally posted by jake_
- complaining about complainers
- forgetting that its all done for the lulz and entertainment (similar to how YOU have written over 6000 posts here which wont get you anywhere)
- really believing that my posts are here to change DICEs mind (notice the lack of any suggestions on my part)
I ask you again, are you for real?Comment
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Re: Thanks be to the gods!
I didn't say you shouldn't complain. I said I didn't understand why you were so interesting in critiquing BC2 so much when you don't plan to play the game.Originally posted by Chris_Redfield
Most of my posts are from OT and discussing things in BF2142, a game I played extensively and primarily did not complain about. I readily admit that nothing practical came from them, but the majority of them are not long arguments dealing with a game I have no plans of ever buying. How many posts have I made in the MW2 section complaining about it and arguing how it isn't nearly as good as MW1? I don't think you'll find any.
I didn't know if you were trying to have an impact here or not. It was logical suggestion.
So you're answer to my questions is that you merely derive pleasure from debating multiple issues with the game even though you never plan to play it and don't intend to see an results from your debating.
Your interest in debating in the BC2 forums just seems extremely unusual to me.Comment
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