Thanks be to the gods!

[Odedge]

Re: Thanks be to the gods!

The only reason soloing is effective is because soloers have sunk hundreds of hours into it. Its natural progression of ones skill. If you want to limit that by artificially gimping them by pitting them together with players who kill the efficiency of the better players, then that approach is wrong. Every counter for choppers has proven to be less fun and less productive in terms of reward. You make chopper hunting fun, and the game will balance itsself out.

Hundreds of hours? You give soloing too much credit. Once you have learned how to fly/gun (which may take some time), soloing comes down to some key binds and a new strategy of flying higher and farther back from the enemy's territory. Maybe it's a natural progression of the player's skill, but it does conflict with the philosophy of a team based game, which is not solely dependent on each individual skill, but also combining them.

It's not wrong to place restrictions on different weapons/vehicles, it's called game play balance. A tank can't fly, sniper guns are not automatic weapons with 100 bullets per round, DPVs can't stay intact when an AT missile hits it. If you don't want to limit your skill in the game, be good at everything in it, not just one focused aspect. That's what I try to do.

[Vreki]

Re: Thanks be to the gods!

We have been discussing this with the flyboys since BF2, noone are going to change their minds now.
Imagine Infantry Only servers where there was one gun (BFG-9000?) that would allow you to massacre the opposing team virtually unopposed once you mastered it. But there could be only be one person on each side having that gun.

Most of us think that would break the game, but a few think it would be a fair reward for mastering the gun. And those with lesser skills should keep their hands of the gun, lest their failure to dominate should cost their team the victory.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Thanks be to the gods!

Hundreds of hours? You give soloing too much credit. Once you have learned how to fly/gun (which may take some time), soloing comes down to some key binds and a new strategy of flying higher and farther back from the enemy's territory. Maybe it's a natural progression of the player's skill, but it does conflict with the philosophy of a team based game, which is not solely dependent on each individual skill, but also combining them.

Show me a person who has spent less than a hundred hours in a chopper and who can successfully compete in a public server. To reach the level of skill where youre actively shaping the outcome of the entire round, you have to sink at least 300 hours into whatever you like to do. Good soloers I know stay just behind the frontlines in their territory, and not out of bounds. Besides, they can only concentrate on armor anyway. Only the very experienced players used chaingun aswell, but noone can deny that it took a lot of skill.

The major hole in your idea lies in the fact that controlling the chopper, and using its best weapon (TVGM) were separate. As such, as the skill progressed, you could only rely on your best copilot, or at some point (after some frag videos made the method immensely popular), only yourself. A chopper without TVGM in 2010 BF2 is a flying coffin. Like I said, I think a good compromise would be if a chopper didnt need a two man crew to jeopardize its survivability, but impact made to the battlefield would be significantly greater if a full crew operated it.

It's not wrong to place restrictions on different weapons/vehicles, it's called game play balance

Have I ever questioned that? The idea of "balance" some of you guys seem to have are associated with making vehicles shoot spaghetti.

If you don't want to limit your skill in the game, be good at everything in it, not just one focused aspect. That's what I try to do.

Now youre being hypocritical. I *am* somewhat experienced-to-good in every aspect of BF2. Are you? I played infantry, armor, air. 50% time spent on the ground, the other 50% is divided between vehicles 35/15 for air/ground.

I used to only fly for technical reasons aswell as personal preference, I had higher FPS in air, naturally. I also found the 1 vs 1 dogfighting aspect very challenging. I gradually moved down from air to infantry and armor after Ive found likeminded people to play with. I can say Ive experienced the all-aspect combat in Battlefield 2 to its fullest. Have you? Having been on both ends of the rape-stick in the air, on the ground and in the middle, aswell as having had the pleasure of discussing BF2 balance with a lot of similarily all-around experienced people, it can open your mind on whats balanced and whats equal and whats required for the full package to work. Dont take my word for it, some people ganged up and made a mod based on their vision of proper BF2 balance.That mod had more than 2000 players online at any given time on its launch week, and continued to hold high numbers until a patch from DICE broke it and irreversably damaged its player count.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Thanks be to the gods!

We have been discussing this with the flyboys since BF2, noone are going to change their minds now.
Imagine Infantry Only servers where there was one gun (BFG-9000?) that would allow you to massacre the opposing team virtually unopposed once you mastered it. But there could be only be one person on each side having that gun.

'

BFG-9000 would mean that if you hand it over to someone suffering from Down syndrome, they would still kill, rape and pillage. The way vehicles (and before patch 1.2, infantry too) are designed in BF2, skill has no limit. The better you are, the higher the score. Vehicles are fun to use, create a healthy illusion of what youd feel if you were in one of them, and packed a punch. Take that same guy with a Down syndrome and seat in in a chopper, hell crash it. Give him 50 hours of practice, and he will maybe reach 1:1 KDR in pubs.

Alternatively, if DICE had additionally thrown in 1 Mobile STA per every 2 jets on every map, the average skill level of those who hunted air power would grow in proportion with jets and choppers. Because thats how balance works. Its not just rock-paper-scissor, you have to make sure the learning curve is steep, but rewarding, and the process was fun. For rock, for the pair of scissors and that leaf of paper.

Most of us think that would break the game, but a few think it would be a fair reward for mastering the gun. And those with lesser skills should keep their hands of the gun, lest their failure to dominate should cost their team the victory.

Dont kid yourself, infantry had its BFG-s. C4-chucking, grenade launchers, at some point even the lazer-PKMs, and then of course we cant forget the "instakill-two-click-ignore-flares-get-stuck-in-trees-teamkill-your-own-or-enemy-air-vehicle-from-across-the-map" STA sites. To be fair, those missiles were only patched because in the offchance they were affected by the flares, they just went for the next best target, which was often your own teams transport helicopter filled with people [you have been kicked for excessive teamkilling]. Patch 1.2 made sure jets and choppers were collecting dust.

I also found grenade launchers and C4 chucking to be ridiculously fun, enabling me to go singlehandedly against the entire oppising team, armor or infantry. While people were trying to hopelessly hit the C4 tossers, they just dolphin-dived their hitboxes 100m away from them and proceeded in throwing those magical frisbees of doom for up to 20 metres, killing entire squads as tons of ammunition was expended on that beautiful creature. But thats how people adapt to poor hit detection. And DICE of course went overboard with the patching. But Im just saying, infantry had its fair share of BFG-s. Fun, rewarding, inbalanced, but there used to be a time when Specops and Assault kits ruled the infantry fight and Medics were in a supportive role. Good days, they were. Still are, if you occasionally hop into BF2 Demo.

[Vreki]

Re: Thanks be to the gods!

quod erat demonstrandum

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Thanks be to the gods!

quod erat demonstrandum

You mean the part where I said I used the overpowered techniques to overcome terrible hit detection and random cone of fire? Sorry for relying on skill, rather than luck. It was used in BF2 because it worked. Try that in COD4.

The most reliable infantry weapon in BF2 was the AT-s rocket launcher. And it wasnt reliable either. :laugh:

If guns worked reliably, and hit detection was spot on, these techniques would have never existed. I see it as evolution. Do I believe that BF2 infantry combat should have always been about explosives? No. Do I think it was a necessary step to stay ahead of others when the guns were literally crap? Yeah.

[Chaoszx]

Re: Thanks be to the gods!

I can understand both sides of the argument, but either way it's subjective. Do you go for fun and allow others to have a chance at flying/gunning, or do you play for score and only score, in which case you do all that's possible to succeed and win?

I can understand why when a person is playing to win the game, he continuously get's annoyed at the fact that no one that guns for him can do even half decent, thus taking the heli and going solo to avoid dying over and over. I can also understand how someone might get annoyed when someone whores the chopper and constantly camps the heli pad like it's the next winning lottery ticket not giving anyone a chance to fly. Both sides are valid, because they are simply two different point of views based on a subjective idea of what should be going on inside of a game.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Thanks be to the gods!

I can understand both sides of the argument, but either way it's subjective. Do you go for fun and allow others to have a chance at flying/gunning, or do you play for score and only score, in which case you do all that's possible to succeed and win?

With all due respect, I dont think you can.

Youre asking for the better pilots to act as taxies to those who dont even care to learn, to fly for 30 seconds until they get TV-d or STA-d down. Or, the better gunners to find a tree or a nice little wave with the completely useless pilots who didnt care to try to learn on their own in their own server. People who propose this dont realize that youre asking the chopper "people" to do this all the time for the duration of their hundreds of hours of chopper flying.

Sometimes, you know, just a thought, people want to just play. And not play nannies.

[Chaoszx]

Re: Thanks be to the gods!

That's why I said it's subjective. Some people think that maybe you should take a break from soloing, and give someone else a try at flying(Assuming you're not in a scrim or serious match, in which case no one should be complaining anyhow), and others say eff the noobs and let's put that heli to use! I'm not saying YOU have to fly them around.

It just depends on when you think it's okay to let being polite get in the way of being efficient, if at all. Of course you won't give someone who's being an *** a turn if he's complaining that you're solo-ing in a disrespectful way. Who would?

[WolfAlmighty]

Re: Thanks be to the gods!

The only thing that truly irritated me IRT soloing in BF2 was the missile lock break. Considering that we have AA vehicles with an almost worthless primary fire against air vehicles (the Bradley was okay, but the Tunguska and PGZ were useless) thereby requiring missiles to kill, and the AA sites which were only missiles (wtb Flak-88), allowing a soloer to break the lock by simply popping F2 was what ruined it. It effectively negated the two things designed to specifically counter the choppers. Had the missiles remained locked on so long as someone was still in the vehicle, there wouldn't have been a problem with soloing.

[Minmaster]

Re: Thanks be to the gods!

sorry, but this aircraft elitism is the pinnacle of BF douchebaggery.:shakehead:

[Kylee!]

Re: Thanks be to the gods!

Redfield I understand I really do. Don't call me ignorant because I know how you feel, but this is just one of those things where I just don't give a damn - and I'm going to tell you to suck it up and try to fix the problem another way. It's a video game, get some friends to play with - it's much more fun. I wouldn't ever be playing video games (especially PC games) if it wasn't for my dudes in TS.

[jake_]

Re: Thanks be to the gods!

Question for Chris:
Is your enjoyment in BF2 directly proportional to both your score and success of your team as a whole?

I for one enjoy playing the game even if I lose. I'm a skilled BF2142 and now BC2 player, better than many, but I nevertheless have many bad days. Furthermore, for much of my early BF2142 I'm not ashamed to admit that I was a complete noob (KDR of like 0.75 for ages). I still enjoyed the game immensely, no less than I do now.

I think you're placing too much weight on success necessitating enjoyment. They two certainly are not synonymous for me and many players. That's what I was trying to get at when I said you had an idealistic perception of the game that can't be met because the majority of players can neither be as good as you nor can they win as often, yet I don't think you can claim to enjoy the game any more than they do!

quod erat demonstrandum

This post wins.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Thanks be to the gods!

Kyle and Chaos, I really dedicated my time to chopper whoring when I had a dedicated gunner who played with me, if he wasnt online, I flew jets. When I was motivated by good intentions and "not doing what I didnt want people to do to myself", I gave up on choppers completely after simply not being able to do anything in the helicopter. After you realize that the only time you stay alive is when youre taking off from the carrier and get half-way across the sea, you either give up or find a way to increase your chances of survival. If youve clocked up 10 hours of chopper time over 3 years, youll never understand just how bad it can get. Choppers in BF2 require significant sacrifice of "gamers humanity and empathy" in order to actually enjoy the game. At some point I gave up on that myself and found the personal freedom to increase the fun factor in the game tenfold. Most of my "buddies" in the game were groundpounders.

And jake, score has little to do with it. Its the realization that no matter what you do with your current gunner, if you die, they are likely to not to fly with you again, and the process of teaching begins all over again. Do you like to die in a game with no prospect of improving? Youre hypocrite if you claim you do.

[Kingkat54]

Re: Thanks be to the gods!

I wonder.................. if the choppers were meant to be piloted alone................WHY do they have extra seats?

My point................its a Team effort to win. Even if all you do is taxi a few friends into the action...............maybe there should be some XP Points for that...? JO had that!!!!!