Tiberium vs BF2142, or mistakes you can avoid from a similar project

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  • Chris_Redfield
    Member
    • Oct 2006
    • 5986

    #1

    Tiberium vs BF2142, or mistakes you can avoid from a similar project

    Mistake 1- BF2142 infantry combat is basically a continuation of BF2 patching process. Which is- slower motion in a more realistic scale, while the firefights are still based on the random cone of fire to increase the TTK (time to kill).

    5000 players online, against BF2s 14000 players online tells the story.

    An option to for lightning fast action is good. An option to do well in a completely opposite end of the spectrum is even better. An option to have an option is great. Be water, change shape. Infantry combat will be the most crucial part, and it has to be FUN. Not limiting, not bordering, not restricting, but fun. This doesnt mean that the game should be a UT-esque shooter. For example, SWAT4, a close quarters combat tactical shooter is more "free" and "fluid" in its motion, than BF2142. Its all about the control response, fluidness of motion and action. If the character youre playing and controlling, fits like a glove and is comfortable to operate (SWAT4, BF2, Counter Strike 1.6, Call of Duty 4, some others), then the game is fun no matter the format.

    Mistake 2- Complete misunderstanding of the concept of science fiction. Its true that you can build a burning lazer using a 8X CD reader laser head and 3 1.5 D battery cells. That is science. Science fiction in a nutshell-laymans terms is taking something that works in real life, and expanding upon it in a what if scenario. You go too far, and you reach Star Trek, with its "photon torpedoes", and you go from sci-fi to fantasy. You tread carefully, and you only go 15 years ahead in time, age of supersonic stealth bombers, VTOL fighters, heavility armored CAS helicopters, Osprey troop carriers and fast moving all terrain APCs. In order to KEEP the immersion, you take what is in today, and expand on it on tomorrow. About Tiberium, even though the world has vastly advanced, the principles are the same. Weve got atmosphere, Newtons 3 Laws and logic. Gameplay immersion comes from understanding how the world in the game operates and gamers ability to relate himself with the world. Immersion in game is one of the most effective sources of addictive and long lasting gameplay. 300 years from now, there will still be tanks and APCs because they serve a specific purpose. Future tech on the field will still be bound to the basic principles

    - Functionality
    - Cost effectiveness
    - Limitations
    - Upgradeability and versatility

    - Functionality, as an example, a 2 legged walker in todays modern battlefield is a completely useless mechanised vehicle, because even though it might serve as a troop support vehicle, its an easy target for anti vehicular weapons. In theory, its best function is movement on variable terrain (see Metal Gear concept). So if youre throwing such a vehicle in, it has to perform a specific function which cant be performed by conventional vehicles. It most definitely can never spearhead an armored assault.
    - Cost effectiveness, its more of a real life guideline.
    - Limitations, there are reasons why the Nazi Germany did not complete their "Maus" project. A 188t tank killer with impenetratable armor. Even 3000 years into the future, tech will be limited by nature. In order to increase the level of immersion, limiting the tech to real life and using explanations and methods that actually make sense, introducing the sci-fi elements, greatly improves immersion. For example, anti-gravity does not create immersion. Magnetism and conventional propulsion (See Newtons laws), do. The "thank god we created X device" is a cheap B grade movie excuse.
    - Upgradeability, battlefield changes. Just like the multipurpose rifle, the ability to change a vehicles role into another as fast as possible, is a huge advantage. Or, in nowadays standards, a multipurpose chassis is a basis for various specialized vehicles. A LAV-25 meets the concept of Terran Heavy Tank from StarCraft.

    Basically- tech must make sense and have a purpose and a reason on the field.

    Mistake 3- Complete lack of propagating teamwork in a teamwork-demanding game. This is also done by rewarding single efforts. You want the squad/team based game to work? Dont reward solo efforts. ETQW had the greatest teamwork concept on paper, and it flew right into the garbage bin in practice because SD underestimated the effects of e-ribbons on people. Use e-ribbons to your advantage. Only reward (kudos screen) people who have done tasks which directly influenced the result of the game. Instead of giving credit to players for highest kills, give credit to people who covered the most ground. Who spotted out the most targets. Who targeted the most armor for airstrikes.

    Mistake 4- Lack of diversity and options in a changing battlefield. I must say the multi-purpose rifle is definitely a nice move. Why not expand on it? Electromagnetic armor, choosing energy levels in a cut/give fashion, between various functions. Choosing the supporting gear. If a player can customize his gear, while having an abundant number of options, this will directly rewards players intelligence, both pre and in game.

    Mistake 5- Releasing a product that needs 1st day patching. See ETQW and FFOW for proof. Even BF2 was released with the only real problem being server crash once every few days or so (optimizing the settings lead to rare server crashes or lack of them).

    Mistake 6- Inappropriate level design which does not support the format or dynamics of the firefights nor vehicular combat. And vice versa. Inappropriate firefight dynamics that do not support level design. A simple example, the purpose of a machine gunner in BF2 is to lay down supressive fire. How does it work out in practice? It doesnt.

    Mistake 7- Nerfing. Now the first mistake of course is the amateuristic approach to balance in the first place. People LIKE and LOVE BIGAS5 EXPLOSIONS AND BOOMS AND SH!T AND GUTS FLYING ALL OVER THE PLACE! No matter what people say, an incoming Su-30 with a purpose of carpetbombing is an awesome sight. You dont need to nerf a vehicle that, in real life, would also do serious damage. Balancing vehicles and infantry is one of the hardest tasks. A vehicle should not be something you could shrug off. It should make you tremble in fear. Immersion is the key word. The higher the vehicle is on the food chain, the harder it should be able to be taken down by 1 (one) unit on the lowest level of the food chain. Make it so that 1 tank vs 1 infantry unit will always reward the tanker. But a combination of troops will have a higher chance of taking out a tank, than vice versa.

    Mistake 8- Skill vs Automation. In games, if a weapon is an automatically guided, or fire and forget weapon, it should be weak(er). In contrast, a weapon that requires skill, should reward a player even more. It has to be an effective weapon, but reward a lot less. For example, Surface to Air missiles. Either by a balance of damage dealt, or countermeasures given, a SAM should be less rewarding than a surface to air gun platform. Same for vehicles. Anti Tank missiles vs landmines or manually detonated explosives or IEDs. In some respect, this holds true in real life aswell. If we take an anti tank guided missile, it generally has a lower level of RHA penetration, than an anti tank penetrator rod fired from a tank. Electromagnetic impulses, IR blocking devices, you can always either fool or counter high tech. When it comes to a sword, you need to have an equally good shield. And its significantly harder to use a sword.

    Mistake 9- User interface. Everything from launching up the game, all the way through playing the game. HUD included. Should be practical, MINIMALISTIC and should enhance the gaming experience and comfortability. In the end, everyone settles down to killing people and blowing up sh!t. The HUD should be supportive to that. Best HUD designes are off your eyesight, limiting it minimalistically while providing all the info you need. Peripheral vision is important, tampering with it is bad.

    Mistake 10- Naturally, listening to the community. BF2 is a prime example.

    These are just my thoughts, but they are sadly inspired by the fact that BF franchise is the sole ruler of the genre and I wouldnt want that to continue. They got the closest to the perfectly working formula. A shame.
  • Corkum
    Member
    • Oct 2006
    • 639

    #2
    Re: Tiberium vs BF2142, or mistakes you can avoid from a similar project

    While i'm not entirely convinced that anyone directly controlling Tiberium will ever read this, I feel that your thoughts are valid and applaud the effort you put into this. One minor discrepancy, from the footage and screenshots I have seen it appears that some of the terrain (as it is extremely war torn and covered with tiberium) would not be traversable by a tracked vehicle and would therefore require a bipedal or quadrupedal mechanized machine.

    Comment

    • Chris_Redfield
      Member
      • Oct 2006
      • 5986

      #3
      Re: Tiberium vs BF2142, or mistakes you can avoid from a similar project

      Originally posted by Corkum
      While i'm not entirely convinced that anyone directly controlling Tiberium will ever read this, I feel that your thoughts are valid and applaud the effort you put into this.
      Its mostly a barrage of bottled up ideas, observations and conclusions. Since my highschool days, I always carry a small notebook, where I write down all of my "flash ideas" which otherwise are forgotten. So this... unorganized piece of material is a part of those ideas.

      And mostly, I find this game to really have potential, CnC Tiberium world has that plot device to make most sci-fi elements work, and work well. And it could really very well be the next big game. I wouldnt want it to fail, even though it is made by EA. Im not stupid though. So well see what happens. Rarely does gaming industry learn from mistakes or successes. Maybe Infinity Ward has set an example.

      One minor discrepancy, from the footage and screenshots I have seen it appears that some of the terrain (as it is extremely war torn and covered with tiberium) would not be traversable by a tracked vehicle and would therefore require a bipedal or quadrupedal mechanized machine.
      This would really make for a great topic of a debate. Tiberium setting would almost completely negate the use of rubber wheeled APCs, but rubber coated, metal wheeled APCs wouldnt still be too far away. Think APC from aliens. They use a very similar concept. The terrain in general is innavigationable (hah, new word) but transporting troops in the areas of urban conflict, where the terrain is generally passable, is the right job for a land based armored personnel carrier. In Aliens universe, the dropship ferries the APC into action, which stays behind the lines as a mobile command post for the SQL to command the squad. It has pretty much everything at its disposal, from orbital strikes to nerve gas to extra ammunition. It also has enough weapons to provide close vehicular support. Once the job is done (or further relocation necessary), the dropship swoops in, picks up the APC and the troops inside, and relocates.

      Considering the fact that the feet of the mechanise combat units are not penetrated by the Tiberium, and is easily shattered (as shown in the debut video), the wheeled solution of a transportation vehicle is not really off the drawing boards. The vehicle would need a variable height from the axii to the ground, a very low point of mass and a 4x4 drive scheme with the front 2 axii being steerable. Since the Tiberium is quite fragile and is pretty much the only resistence, think "Armadillo" from the movie "Armageddon". It had a minigun for just that kind of purpose. Only instead of Tiberium, they had to deal with ice.

      As for tanks.

      An Abrams can cross 9 feet wide trenches and 42 inch high obstacles and move at 4 MPH up a 60 degree slope. Tanks in Tiberium universe have 4 sets of tracks and are pretty long. Id imagine they would be perfect at crossing even worse kind of terrain.

      [EDIT:] Not to mention, seen the jump packs on the main character? Same concept is used in "Mass Effect" Mako APC. 4 boosters to enable short jumps to cross larger obstacles.

      Comment

      • Corkum
        Member
        • Oct 2006
        • 639

        #4
        Re: Tiberium vs BF2142, or mistakes you can avoid from a similar project

        I was actually watching a show on the Abrams today on the military channel. While I am convinced that the M1A2 could certainly cross some of the terrain shown in the videos it most certainly is not designed for sustained use in such an environment. It seems to do best in muddy or sandy environments, an environment which requires the constant and repeated flexing of the axles would most likely be more work than it is worth to keep it operational. I will not say however that a bipedal mech would be any easier to maintain, but it seems better adapted to such environments. The largest issue that I have with mechs in general would be its long range engagement capabilities. The Abrams main cannon can penetrate 10ft of concrete at range. The usefulness of a mech without a similar weapon would be debatable. In any event I have high hopes for this game, which is unfortunately not worth anything.

        Comment

        • Chris_Redfield
          Member
          • Oct 2006
          • 5986

          #5
          Re: Tiberium vs BF2142, or mistakes you can avoid from a similar project

          True. But at least we can tell that even a two treaded tank is able to operate in such an environment. Thats pretty much enough, considering that the Tiberium universe tanks are obviously created with overcoming rough terrain in mind, first.

          [media]http://images.ea.com/eagames/official/cc_firstdecade/Mammoth/GDI_MammothTank.jpg[/media]

          While this concept is obviously lacking in defensive capabilities and is exactly as I described, bordering fantasy realm, the concept of 4 treads and high rough terrain transport capabilities, one can expand on it.

          Note also that the main problem with Abrams is not in the lacks in modern metallurgy, but the balance of cost-effectiveness. Newer tanks like Leopards are much more reliable, which shows that technology and technological reliability is a constantly developing process.

          Frankly, its the mechs current purpose on the field, which I dont get. If they are like the ones in BF2142, then its obviously a missed concept. Any theories on what a mech would actually be doing on the field?

          Comment

          • Corkum
            Member
            • Oct 2006
            • 639

            #6
            Re: Tiberium vs BF2142, or mistakes you can avoid from a similar project

            Yeah, its interesting according to C&C cannon the Mammoth tanks, which you described carry a full engineering team to maintain them (It gave them a reason to allow the tanks to regenerate health I suppose). I am really not sure whether that would be more cost effective than a mech unit. The other issue that I have with mechs is the high visibility. One thing you don't want on the battlefield is to be seen from a distance. It seems within the context of this game that the Mechs are infantry and air support only. Only time will tell if this is accurate. In terms of infantry suppression I think a mechanized unit similar to the one on the first 3dmark 06 benchmark, would be far more effective than the lumbering two story beasts that are currently in game.
            To the unregistered people viewing: sign up and drop your $.02 on this!

            Comment

            • Chris_Redfield
              Member
              • Oct 2006
              • 5986

              #7
              Re: Tiberium vs BF2142, or mistakes you can avoid from a similar project

              Originally posted by Corkum
              Yeah, its interesting according to C&C cannon the Mammoth tanks, which you described carry a full engineering team to maintain them (It gave them a reason to allow the tanks to regenerate health I suppose).
              I doubt they will utilize this in the game, I hope they dont. Mut-rep wouldnt be a bad thing for a pub play though.

              I am really not sure whether that would be more cost effective than a mech unit. The other issue that I have with mechs is the high visibility. One thing you don't want on the battlefield is to be seen from a distance. It seems within the context of this game that the Mechs are infantry and air support only.
              If we apply nowadays logic into the game, a mech cant be closer than 5 miles into the battlefield if theres a tank present. As such, mechs have to have a specific purpose which APCs and tanks cant fulfill. While Im usually a creative guy with some imagination, I cant figure this one out. Start brainstorming!

              A mobile STA site & Infantry support sounds like a decent mock up. Gets awfully close to the goliaths in BF2142 though.

              I think a mechanized unit similar to the one on the first 3dmark 06 benchmark,
              Pics please.

              I dont oppose mechs, I just find the "lets stick ´em into the mix for fun" approach stupid.

              Comment

              • Ghost 1800

                #8
                Re: Tiberium vs BF2142, or mistakes you can avoid from a similar project

                LOL OWNED :)

                Comment

                • Chris_Redfield
                  Member
                  • Oct 2006
                  • 5986

                  #9
                  Re: Tiberium vs BF2142, or mistakes you can avoid from a similar project

                  Originally posted by Ghost 1800
                  Only thing I can come up with is artillery support in extreme terrain... go figure, Juggernaut...
                  Wouldnt be the only mech with such a purpose. Metal Gears also were basically walking nuke artillery units.

                  and how the hell do you explain away the existence of something like the MARV or any of those KW units if they don't appear in Tiberium? Those things pretty much decimated the old units and it wouldn't make sense for them to just disappear from the scene
                  Well, luckily MARV has actually had a real life counterpart in WW2 from 3 factions, GER, US and UK. The most famous would be "Maus", which is basically a "bigas5" tank. As a tank killer, this type of a unit definitely has a purpose on the field.

                  Thats kind of the point and the problem at the same time. Make a unit, introduce it in, but make it serve an obvious and specific purpose.

                  Comment

                  • Ghost 1800

                    #10
                    Re: Tiberium vs BF2142, or mistakes you can avoid from a similar project

                    hmmm... I guess in a highly urban environment they could be used in conjunction with infantry to clear roads out. The high profile of these mechs could allow them to fire over barricades and more easily find and engage enemies who are hiding upstairs in buildings. Now obviously a tank would probably be able to go head to head with them, but it wouldn't be able to get anywhere near the same FoV and would probably be blown up by infantry in high positions.

                    ... guess that would be a slightly taller wolverine?

                    Comment

                    • iQue
                      Member
                      • May 2007
                      • 4925

                      #11
                      Re: Tiberium vs BF2142, or mistakes you can avoid from a similar project

                      First of all I love BF2142 and I'm sure you will notice my fanboyism through my post.

                      Moving on:

                      The BF2142 way of using mechs are stupid from a realistic point of view. But for game balance it was great, because you have these big platforms to back up the infantry in a battle, and the only thing you need to take one down is maybe one or two engineers (or if the walker pilot is a real *******, one sneaky recon guy is enough)... In a real life battle everyone would laugh at the idea of having a mech of the same type, obviously

                      But, if you make the mechs highly mobile and fast, they could have a huge impact on IRL battles. Think of striders from Half-Life 2:



                      If you could build a machine like that, they would be very powerful and hard to take out due to their ability to move fast and quick.

                      The biggest mistake all of these game designers are making is that noone will probably be in any of these machines in the future, as they will most likely be unmanned. But that wouldn't make a very good game

                      Comment

                      • Corkum
                        Member
                        • Oct 2006
                        • 639

                        #12
                        Re: Tiberium vs BF2142, or mistakes you can avoid from a similar project

                        Originally posted by Chris_Redfield
                        A mobile STA site & Infantry support sounds like a decent mock up. Gets awfully close to the goliaths in BF2142 though.



                        Pics please.

                        I dont oppose mechs, I just find the "lets stick ´em into the mix for fun" approach stupid.
                        Here are your pics:



                        Perhaps a mech like that would be more useful.

                        Comment

                        • Chris_Redfield
                          Member
                          • Oct 2006
                          • 5986

                          #13
                          Re: Tiberium vs BF2142, or mistakes you can avoid from a similar project

                          Urban combat mech is a bad concept. Unless its highly mobile, extremely adaptible and has a very, very high sense of orientation. The reason is, modern battlegrounds in Tiberium universe seem to take place in cities which are not made of clay huts. So the 3 extra stories you cover will not give an advantage in modern military sense. As such, a very compact or "über"-armored IFV, APC or tank gets the job done better.

                          Striders and RAY Gears, aswell as new Gekkou models use highly advanced autonomous VI (virtual intelligence) and they are on an extremely mobile platform. Tiberium tech is still gears, nuts and bolts.

                          Mobile artillery platforms, extreme surface crossing, mobile STA platforms, I got nothing.

                          -

                          And yeah, BF2142 had a very misshot concept and from the looks of it Tiberium is going to use Tiberium universe as a pretty direct source.

                          Corkum. Those are "power suits", something different. I think they are present in Tiberium universe already.

                          Comment

                          • Ghost 1800

                            #14
                            Re: Tiberium vs BF2142, or mistakes you can avoid from a similar project

                            Those would probably be closer to zone troopers then mechs. Still pretty cool.

                            Comment

                            • HEFO
                              Member
                              • Sep 2007
                              • 400

                              #15
                              Re: Tiberium vs BF2142, or mistakes you can avoid from a similar project

                              What about a mech. soldier like the Terminator?

                              There wouldnt be soo much dead soldiers and wars would turn into real games (well, if there were some battle arenas or something)

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