Anti-Air issues

[Dairuka]

Re: Anti-Air issues

Find me that flyboy with 2000+ KDR. I want to see that one.

I can't figure out how to direct link it, but |ccc||PlaneWhore has a 6266% ratio. Do a search in the stats.totalbf2.com for your proof.

Actually I do see the inbalance. But what I see specifically is this- one guy in one jet can be a universal threat to everything equally. As PW put it for choppers- too much power for one player to have.

Are choppers really that dangerous? I usually play Anti-Tank in vehicle heavy stages, and I have no problem downing them in two dumb-shots, or a minute or two in a humvee.

You cant do that. Simply not possible. Whatever is more effective against jets, is a LOT more effective against choppers.

Thats nice, so you're saying, "Fixing the hitboxes on jets" will completely destroy Helicopters? So you're saying "Decreasing the recast time of Helicopter flares" will completely destroy helicopters? Did you even read my suggestions? There were only three.

The only reasonable solution would be to keep choppers TVGM about 50-75 metres longer than STA lock range.

STA range right now (checked files) - 450 metres
TVGM range - 450 metres

I like that idea.

Thats why I didn't really argue against it. I just don't like the way you present your ideas.

Whats broken with jets is hitbox mesh design and heatsource location. If you want to change the way missiles are guided, then youre just dreaming.

I'd settle for one of the two.

Anyhow, didn't they change the way missles are guided before? I could have sworn they did.

You can add more skill into ATA missile guidance, but they will still be heatseeking missiles with lock delay, lock angle and "Tick" time with maneuverability limit.

So you're suggesting that we change the way missles are guided, by 'adding more skill' into their guidance? I'm confused. Didn't you just say we couldn't change the way missles are guided? Maybe you meant Anti-Aircraft missles only in your last blanket statement?

From what Ive experimented, theres a good solution to make the worse jets have faster lock time and bigger lock angle while better jets have longer lock time and smaller lock angle. 1 second increase in all jets (except F35B) lock time will have a huge effect and prolongue maneuvering significantly.

I didn't realize we were getting into the conversation of balancing weak jets in an Anti-Air hread.

Actually. No. This would simply make jets perform an anti-armor role rather than anti-infantry role. Also, I must apologize, I didnt mean SPLASH DAMAGE, but splash damage RADIUS, while keeping the damage as it is.

Thats a better idea. I thought you meant nerfing damage. That idea will certainly piss off a lot of flyboys who rely on bombing the crap out of things for their points though. I still don't like your idea of increasing the armor of an attack helicopter however. Those suckers take a lot of punishment.

I'm not sure if it's a viable idea, but perhaps Anti-Aircraft missles could do half the damage they do now, to Helicopters when they hit? You could still down most helicopters in 4 shots, but this way you'd have to make sure all four hit, or you'd have to get them in two volleys.

Actually youve put nothing into your suggestions. All you have is a general idea of what should be done. Quite simply "make this better and make this worse". Im sorry, this doesnt cut it. If you want me to believe youve put any thought into your suggestions you have to try harder.

What do you think of Roger's ideas?

[steel_x]

Re: Anti-Air issues

Friend, check my big *** thread on the subject (ala plane whores). You'll see the problems you're having aren't new, and that for a short time in the past, there was a solution to it.

If you are like me, and pine for 1.2, then sure, I'm on your side. So are many others.

Thanks man, will do. Thats preaty much what ea had to say to, (read my post about the update I got ) Thanks again bro.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Anti-Air issues

I can't figure out how to direct link it, but |ccc||PlaneWhore has a 6266% ratio. Do a search in the stats.totalbf2.com for your proof.

Ive seen it. His ratio is not 2000:1. Its 27.85:1

Colony is running a 200:1 if Im not mistaken. But it has ~1000 kills in it. These are generally experiments, score racing accounts.

Are choppers really that dangerous? I usually play Anti-Tank in vehicle heavy stages, and I have no problem downing them in two dumb-shots, or a minute or two in a humvee.

They are. A properly manned chopper can do a lot of damage. And a solo pilot is usually further away from teh frontlines creating tons of anti-vehicular damage without being in the danger zone for longer that it needs to.

Thats nice, so you're saying, "Fixing the hitboxes on jets" will completely destroy Helicopters? So you're saying "Decreasing the recast time of Helicopter flares" will completely destroy helicopters? Did you even read my suggestions? There were only three.

I thought you said you wanted a boost in ground based counter against jets? So where did the hitbox meshes come into play now? Fact is and fact remains, any counter against jets if increased will have a larger impact on choppers.

If they'd fix the hitboxes on some Jets, Anti-Aircraft missles wouldn't suck so bad.

Signed.

I'd also like it if they'd increase the recast timer by an extra 10-20 seconds. Jets should not get a "get out of an arse-kicking free card" so fast. Especially when half of the anti-aircraft, and jet missles don't even hit them anyways.

Its set to 28 seconds now, with a 2 second reload timer. If you push it up, dogfights will be even worse.

I also feel that Helicopters should have their recast timer decreased to at least half of what it is now. Anti-aircraft officially rapes them, and they don't deserve to get punished because Jets are unfairly godlike.

Its extremely short right now. I havent checked the files for choppers but I estimate a 3 second wait time and 2 second reload time. A total somewhere between 5 and 7 seconds? And that is SHORT as it is. Right now, a jet can NOT complete a pass after making chopper drop its flares. A chopper will always have its flares ready when the jet completes the circle.

I like that idea.

Thats why I didn't really argue against it. I just don't like the way you present your ideas.

Sorry, Id be more detailed (for educational and entertainment purposes) but my head hurts like hell, plus English isnt my first language and even though I like to believe Im good at it, I still severely lack in presenting my ideas "naturally" so other parties can understand better. If that makes sense. Basically, I dont think nor calculate in English. I just type and talk (sometimes) in English.

I'd settle for one of the two.

Anyhow, didn't they change the way missles are guided before? I could have sworn they did.

You need to change both of them. Some planes have rear hitbox mesh designes so the missile has a 90 degree impact with it. It slamms into a wall. But for J10, a missile impacts at a narrow angle and thus sometimes reflecting off the surface. As for heatsource, its critical for the final stage of missile tracking.

Theres onw ay to fix it all. Increase missiles lock angle (or field of view), but this will also significantly increase the "rogue missile" cases...

I didn't realize we were getting into the conversation of balancing weak jets in an Anti-Air hread.

Meh, youve done this yourself aswell.

But seriously, ATA and STA balance and finetuning is something that isnt easy to do. Theres a lot more meat to it, more than just altering a number or two.

What do you think of Roger's ideas?

Me and Mr Smith are almost always on the same page, even about women

[Dairuka]

Re: Anti-Air issues

Ive seen it. His ratio is not 2000:1. Its 27.85:1

Colony is running a 200:1 if Im not mistaken. But it has ~1000 kills in it. These are generally experiments, score racing accounts.

I stated, "in a plane" not overall.

In a plane his ratio % is 6266%. That equals 63:1 rounded up. Please also note he has 22,495 kills, and 359 deaths.

http://www.bf2player.com/index.php?page=stats&show=&account=48131109

Finally found some visual proof... sorry it took so long.

They are. A properly manned chopper can do a lot of damage. And a solo pilot is usually further away from teh frontlines creating tons of anti-vehicular damage without being in the danger zone for longer that it needs to.

I've run into my fair share of awomesome pilots on stages like Sharqui, and Dragon Valley, but they all fall victim to the same things. Humvee's, and Anti-Tank missles. I honestly refuse to brag, but a properly guided Anti-Tank missle can hit a strafing/swerving helicopter at mid range without any problems.

I've 'never' had problems with helicopters. Ever. Then again, I rarely play in Tanks, and APC's. Even when I do, it's not hard to evade the TV of death, if you roll right under em' and come up behind em'. Sure you won't kill the, but you'll certainly force them to circle around you. They get bored of cat and mouse after a while. Either that or the pilot tries to dive in to pelt you with dumb-fire missles. If you die to those, you're not a very good tank whore.

I thought you said you wanted a boost in ground based counter against jets? So where did the hitbox meshes come into play now? Fact is and fact remains, any counter against jets if increased will have a larger impact on choppers.

I do. I didn't say how. That is what is called a blanket statement. Politicians do it all the time, and you did it earlier when you talked about missles.

Signed.

Thank you.

Because you're a respected flyboy, this means a lot coming from you.

Its set to 28 seconds now, with a 2 second reload timer. If you push it up, dogfights will be even worse.

Good point. Especially if they fix the hitboxes. Fine, I concede that idea.

Its extremely short right now. I havent checked the files for choppers but I estimate a 3 second wait time and 2 second reload time. A total somewhere between 5 and 7 seconds? And that is SHORT as it is. Right now, a jet can NOT complete a pass after making chopper drop its flares. A chopper will always have its flares ready when the jet completes the circle.

I honestly don't know the exact time that it takes for a helicopter to reload it's flares.

I just know that I have all the time in the world to blow them up with my 3 remaining Anti-Aircraft missles after I've suckered them into wasting their flares when I fired one at them. 7 seconds is an eternity if it only takes 6 seconds for the missles to reach you.

Sorry, Id be more detailed (for educational and entertainment purposes) but my head hurts like hell, plus English isnt my first language and even though I like to believe Im good at it, I still severely lack in presenting my ideas "naturally" so other parties can understand better. If that makes sense. Basically, I dont think nor calculate in English. I just type and talk (sometimes) in English.

I apologize because I know this will be personal, but it's not your grasp of the English language that makes your presentation seem a little offstandish. It's your aggressive tone, regarding people with differing points of view.

To tell the truth, you're very easy to understand. You're better at the English Language, than 80% of the people on this web-board. You should take pride in that fact, since 79% of that 80% aforementioned, have English as their native language. :laugh:

You need to change both of them. Some planes have rear hitbox mesh designes so the missile has a 90 degree impact with it. It slamms into a wall. But for J10, a missile impacts at a narrow angle and thus sometimes reflecting off the surface. As for heatsource, its critical for the final stage of missile tracking.

Alright then. Thats a good suggestion then. A suggestion that you should anonymously mail to DICE with a bomb enclosed.

Maybe they'll get the point if they know we BF2 fans are serious about wanting balance.

Theres onw ay to fix it all. Increase missiles lock angle (or field of view), but this will also significantly increase the "rogue missile" cases...

We're not looking for the answer to all of lifes problems. The majority of BF2 players who're fed up with the way planes are now, just want Stationary Anti-Aircraft, and the Hitbox issue to be looked at. Thats what my first and second posts' main message was all about.

Meh, youve done this yourself aswell.

Shush you. :laugh:

But seriously, ATA and STA balance and finetuning is something that isnt easy to do. Theres a lot more meat to it, more than just altering a number or two.

I honestly hope I didn't come off that way when I made my generalized ideas.

Then again, I'm used to programming with Python 2.4, and EVERYTHING there is literally just as easy as altering a number or two. :laugh:

Me and Mr Smith are almost always on the same page, even about women

Mr. Smith only loves himself. He will also assimilate Neo someday.

[DesertFalcon]

Re: EA Spam campaign.

mayby if you send some money with the email they might think about it

Probably

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Anti-Air issues

Dairuka, Its not about the technical aspect of the changes. Its simple to change a few lines of code. The hardest part is to figure out the proper changes and how that change will affect the game and game elements across the board. This is why people asking for a single change usually lack the experience in game or the objective mind to see the negative changes brought with their ideas. Take a paper and a pencil and start thinking this through, and youll start encountering problems left and right. After I ctarted sniffing around the files it got even worse as I knew what could and couldnt be done, so it severely limits your options.

Bottomline, balance isnt about changing a few codes to create an uber-STA.

As for choppers. Its great that you actually dont have issues with them. I know for myself that when I get pounded I swich flags and take a jeep tour. However, Ive been cruising around the flag with a gunner and seen guy getting killed 5+ times, and this is ridiculously sad and funny! :laugh:

I know when I ride my regular gunner, I can focus on my own gameplay and positioning myself so that jeep hoggers had a hard time finding a spot to find me (ie, they have to come out in the open) isnt a problem and after that its a TVGM shot at them. And while attacking a heavily guarded flag often makes me drive for repairs, a well-experienced helo crew can at least cause enough problems so that my teammates can drive in and have a teaparty themselves. And then we have people flying right over STA coverage, disappearing off the minimap...

And heh! Sharqi is farking boring for a chopper pilot. Dragon Valley or Dalian Plant for me please.

As for negative attitude, cant be bothered to have an argument with pink flowers and love with people whom you can present your point with hard facts 10 times and they still go create another topic about what sucks in BF2. I shake my head on every such topic, yet I only post in the ones regarding flight aspect. I know if I did post in every such complaint topic my post count would be 6000+. And Ive only been here less than a year. :laugh:

[MrBenis]

Re: Anti-Air issues

One way to fix all this.. would be to drop the speed of Jets, and increase their maneuverability. Probably give AA missles a 15 degree cone increase, to compensate for the slightly upped maneuverability.

Heli's would remain mostly unaffected, since AA hits them 90% of the time now anyway.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: Anti-Air issues

One way to fix all this.. would be to drop the speed of Jets, and increase their maneuverability. Probably give AA missles a 15 degree cone increase, to compensate for the slightly upped maneuverability.

Heli's would remain mostly unaffected, since AA hits them 90% of the time now anyway.

Right now. The missiles maneuverability is UNMATCHED by jets and even a boost in jets maneuverability will NOT change that fact. Missiles could turn on a dime if they saw behind themselves.

[[77th]Balas]

Re: Anti-Air issues

Couldn't have put it better my self. I mostly use the AA platform to take out tanks, when there in close range, beacuse it sucks *** at what its ment for. I'm starting to wounder how that guy can claim to take out 70% of air craft. Perhaps there some hack he is useing? I mean unless hes playing vs chumps.

i would be the fellow who stated i could take down aircraft 70 or so percent of the time.

Im not using hacks.

its all about timing, **** AA gunners will fire all thier missles before the jet drops its flares. you need to wait for the jet to drop its flares, move your HUD away from the flares then bring it back to lock the jet and fire. half the time the rocket doesnt even go for the flares anyway.

Usually a jet will come back for a gunrun on the AA, this is an incredibly easy time to hit them, as soon as you see them fire your missles and if they are coming streight at you, chances are they will just nail the nose of the aircraft.

if your in the carrier AA or mobile AA you dont really have to wait for flares since you have 4-6 rockets, just keep firing and you should kill him pretty easy.

Right now. The missiles maneuverability is UNMATCHED by jets and even a boost in jets maneuverability will NOT change that fact. Missiles could turn on a dime if they saw behind themselves.

ive seen a missle do a complete 180 and nail a chopper. it was the most amazing feat of engineering ive ever seen. completely unrealistic, but amazing none the less.

[Roger Smith]

Re: Anti-Air issues

I like the way you think.

my opinion has developed through discussion on these boards with other plane whores/enthesiests and ground pounders, myself being both, but ty.

Me and Mr Smith are almost always on the same page, even about women

hugh? yall talking bout meh? :banana:

anyhow, lets not fight, lets discuss. we all want the current system to change, we can all agree upon that, lets just keep thinking up new stuff and discussing it. as for specific gamecode, renfield heh, knows more about it than me. thats why its good that we all run our ideas past eachother because we can all come up with intelligent ways to fix the game, just hope someone listens. i would rather we have a general idea of whats wrong than denying it all together.

[{USI}_DirTyDeeDs]

Re: Anti-Air issues

either remove jets completely or give each side the same plane.

Problem solved :salute:

[Dairuka]

Re: Anti-Air issues

Dairuka, Its not about the technical aspect of the changes. Its simple to change a few lines of code. The hardest part is to figure out the proper changes and how that change will affect the game and game elements across the board. This is why people asking for a single change usually lack the experience in game or the objective mind to see the negative changes brought with their ideas. Take a paper and a pencil and start thinking this through, and youll start encountering problems left and right. After I ctarted sniffing around the files it got even worse as I knew what could and couldnt be done, so it severely limits your options.

Making multiple changes opens up the possibility of multiple problems.

Were this a company other than DICE, we could just shrug it off and say, "You're right Chris, and we can just fix any problems caused by the changes made, with a hotfix."

Most developers do one thing at a time.

Bottomline, balance isnt about changing a few codes to create an uber-STA.

Giving jets a predator would be the best thing to open up balance. This would require them to,

A: Change their tactics, and avoid certain areas where their predators are located;

B: Be forced to inaccurately bomb from way up in the sky, to avoid being locked on by said predators;

C: Occasionally take a couple deaths, to get a few kills. You might see actually Jet whores with a 5:1 K/D ratio, instead of a 30:1 K/D ratio! My god! The indignity!

After 12 years of MUD, and MMO gaming, I've learned that Balance is giving every class a predator, and every skill a counter. Jets in this case are the class, they have no predator. Bombing is their skill, it has no counter.

Your idea to reduce splash damage radius will certainly open up a lot of possbilities to allow people to actually evade bombing. This is why I agreed to it, it's a very good idea.

As for choppers. Its great that you actually dont have issues with them. I know for myself that when I get pounded I swich flags and take a jeep tour. However, Ive been cruising around the flag with a gunner and seen guy getting killed 5+ times, and this is ridiculously sad and funny! :laugh:

Helicopters really aren't that powerful. They constantly have to watch their arses for Tanks, APC's, Humvee's, Anti-Tank Infantry, Stationary Anti Aircraft, Mobile Anti-Aircraft. It takes a lot of skill to survive as a helicopter pilot. In fact, it's the hardest job in this game. Most people who solo, usually frequent Sharqui, which is an imbalanced stage that favors MEC, because MEC's helicopter is powerful, and USMC's infantry is generally helpless to fight back.

This is not an imbalance in Helicopters, but an imbalance in the stage. Thats why helicopter whores frequent MEC on Sharqui. Helicopters get frequently dropped on Dragon Valley, Daqing Oilfields, and Fushe Pass... There is also a lot more open space in these stages, which lead to far less easy-infantry kills, and thus less points.

I know when I ride my regular gunner, I can focus on my own gameplay and positioning myself so that jeep hoggers had a hard time finding a spot to find me (ie, they have to come out in the open) isnt a problem and after that its a TVGM shot at them. And while attacking a heavily guarded flag often makes me drive for repairs, a well-experienced helo crew can at least cause enough problems so that my teammates can drive in and have a teaparty themselves. And then we have people flying right over STA coverage, disappearing off the minimap...

The fact that you have to play around humvee's shows that Helicopters are balanced. You AVOID your predator, and even more intelligently, you do your best to counter your predator before he can kill you. The guy in the Humvee could easily avoid the TV missle, simply by driving away, or simply hopping out of the jeep and finding cover. It takes time to line up a TV missle shot, especially from long range, and out of the view of the jeep.

Jets do not have to avoid their *Laugh* "So called" predators on stages like Wake, they just drive-by, laugh when the two AA missles miss, then rack up an easy kill on a drive by shooting/bombing in the stationary Anti-Aircraft sites, which I have affectionatelly dubbed, "The Suicide Booths"

Mobile Anti-Aircraft isn't all what it's cracked up to be either. Sure, it's perfectly accurate if you're faced up against some **** in a plane who thinks hes top notch, but crack-pilots know enough not to fly low to the ground when somebody has a lock on them. They always fly out of range, and circle back to attack the Mobile AA. I'm sure this gives the impression that they're avoiding mobile AA's, but really they're just setting up to remove the Mobile AA nuisance in the same way they do stationary ones.

They also know that flying directly at a Mobile Anti-Aircraft is the best way to survive. For a Mobile Anti-Aircraft, there is no way to prevent the bombing. It's far too slow. You can't evade it. You can't even evade the gunfire. You can't fight back because the Anti-Aircraft missles NEVER hit a jet on the nose. It's like they deflect off. Thank you hitboxes. Thank you heatseaking. I can honestly say that I've been in this situation a hundred times on Daqing and Dragon. This makes it easy for them to bomb the Mobile AA without taking even a hint of damage. Mobile AA's are then castrated, and reminded of the Eunuch that they are as a 'predator.' When I play as a Mobile AA, the majority of my kills come from infantry, jeeps, and helicopters. I usually kill at most 2-3 jets per stage, and it's usually the Su, or the F-35 in Daqing Oilfields. Dragon is too bright to get an accurate lock on, and the planes have too much space to manuever in. Most planes on Dragon just stay over the hills to avoid getting locked on in the first place.

Usually when I get smacked down like this by a top notch pilot, I know that theres nothing I can do to stop them short of getting into a jet, so I go back to capping flags, and hope to god that I don't get bombed again and again. Theres just no fighting back against a top pilot. I figure; since I can't beat this pilot, I may as well try to beat his team. At least this way he can get angry at them for losing despite his elite skill, and leave, or at least join my team so I won't get bombed by him anymore.

There are lots of aviators out there who have a 2000%+ K/D ratio % for planes. I have yet to see a Helicopter Gunner with a 2000%+ K/D ratio % for helicopters. If I did, I'd probably praise him and his pilot as one of the best attack chopper duo's, if not the best attack chopper duo in the game.

And heh! Sharqi is farking boring for a chopper pilot. Dragon Valley or Dalian Plant for me please.

Sharqui is obviously boring for you, because you know how easy it is to rack up points there. Dragon Valley and Dalian Plant introduce extra predators for Helicopters with all the extra vehicles, and jets on the stage.

As for negative attitude, cant be bothered to have an argument with pink flowers and love with people whom you can present your point with hard facts 10 times and they still go create another topic about what sucks in BF2. I shake my head on every such topic, yet I only post in the ones regarding flight aspect. I know if I did post in every such complaint topic my post count would be 6000+. And Ive only been here less than a year. :laugh:

Thats other people. If you want to make it personal just because I share one or two opinions with them, then so be it. The fact that I have over 200 posts in less than two weeks should let you know how much of a board troll that I am, so you can bet that I won't back down from an arguement that gets personal.

If you have a problem with other people, take it up with them.

If you have a problem with what I said? Make sure to read it all first, and try not to turn it personal, unless you want me to do the same. =)

You'll find that I'm a very accomodating person when it comes to intelligent debates. If somebody comes up with a good point, I'll commend them on it. If they prove one of my points wrong, I'll concede it.

[Shagrath]

Re: Anti-Air issues

Yes, but one missle would tear a new hole into a jet. I don't see why we need to shoot them with two in BF2.

How about tanks? Does it really take 2-5 AT-Bazooka hits to blow one up IRL? Don't you think 1 stick of C4 would be more than enough to kill a tank's treads?

How about infantry? Does it really take two .50 calibur bullets to kill one? I'd think a sniper shot to the heart would drop a man dead too. In this game, it has to be in the head...

Your arguement is flawed, because BF2 is. I seek balance, not realism as an excuse.

Jets are untouchable on stages without mobile AA. Even on stages with mobile AA, it would take a great deal of luck, and timing to take one down thanks to a Jet's ability to manuever around locked on missles, and a Mobile AA's ability to... not manuever around incoming bombs. We also forget that Mobile Anti-Aircraft vehicles also have to worry about Helicopters, APC's, Tanks, Jihad-Jeeps/Spec-Ops, Anti Tanks, and Engineers. Thats seven constant threats, for the Mobile Anti-Aircraft, in comparison to a Jet's... one... They have only Mobile Anti-Aircraft to worry about, with the exception of other jets... I have yet to see a Jet drop to a stationary AA, so I refuse to count that.

Personally, I'm tired of people telling me that Jets don't need a predator in every stage.

I feel they need a predator in every stage, so they can rely on ground support, just as the ground units require Air support.

All aircraft should be very vulnerable to AA, because IRL they are even vulnerable to small arms fire!