Novel Solution to Claymores

[volkl]

First, I did read/skim the Claymore Workshop...all 8 pages. Recap of ideas presented to my recollection:

- Despite "ground rules", re-enable FF (fair enough argument)
- Require substantial arming time
- Supress triggering if crawling/crouched; chance of detonation speed dependent
- Reduce damage if just walking and not sprinting
- Have claymore triggered by friendlies but not incur damage to friendlies
- Allow heavy ammunition/explosive to detonate
- Allow Claymores to be spotted and appear on mini map

Problem statement:
With Claymore FF turned on, too many team kills result. Majority of BF2 players cannot be trusted to interpret a skull and crossbones. Consequently, placing Claymores is too risky and tends to be avoided and under-used.

With claymore FF turned off, snipers spam alleys (and other areas) with Claymores for ridiculously easy kills. Claymores are not intelligent devices that should distinguish between friend or foe.

Solution:

• Implement game logic that does not allow Claymores to be placed if any friendlies are within ~50 yards. This will pretty much prevent them from being used in Karkand alleys while still protecting snipers hiding on hillsides.
• Friendlies may not enter into the trigger zone of a Claymore. They are blocked as if running into a wall. The idea that friendly troops can rush through a mined area immune to threats is absurd. This prevents teamkills, preserves the efforts the sniper who has placed the mine, and discourages abuse of alleyways. Note, the limit of two Claymores and the above placement restriction should prevent an exploit by griefers.
• As already suggested in the other thread, allow mines to be marked which will then appear as distinct persistent dots on the mini map. Once marked, enemies will also be prevented from entering into the trigger zone of a Claymore as are friendlies. Marking a Claymore will automatically shield your team from becoming a casualty.
• Enable the movement restriction into a trigger zone to be overriden (e.g. by holding down the <alt> key while moving). Forcibly entering a trigger zone will cause detonation and damage to friendlies and enemies alike. Allow this option for squads with a medic on hand who need to get past the mine.

[Irusk0098]

Re: Novel Solution to Claymores

Great point I agree with you completely. I have always hoped someone would come with some mid-ground. Now only if we could get that in the next patch.

[adamfool99]

Re: Novel Solution to Claymores

good post.

doubt it will happen though.

[solofowaffles]

Re: Novel Solution to Claymores

good thinking but would never happen.uu expect them to change clays,they cant even get the red bug.

[SaladFork]

Re: Novel Solution to Claymores

Since I'm bored and have nothing better to do, let's have some fun.

Implement game logic that does not allow Claymores to be placed if any friendlies are within ~50 yards. This will pretty much prevent them from being used in Karkand alleys while still protecting snipers hiding on hillsides.

That's an original idea, but does not solve reported problem. All it does is further restrict the use of a tactical piece of equipment. Just like AT mines can be placed behind the tank by a stealthy engineer, why should a sniper be restricted by his teammates? Especially since we're talking about public play, not competitive player, where teammates could care less about you or your claymores.

Friendlies may not enter into the trigger zone of a Claymore. They are blocked as if running into a wall. The idea that friendly troops can rush through a mined area immune to threats is absurd. This prevents teamkills, preserves the efforts the sniper who has placed the mine, and discourages abuse of alleyways. Note, the limit of two Claymores and the above placement restriction should prevent an exploit by griefers.

This is just too easy. Please tell me you are joking. Two claymores prevent griefers? Two claymores can trap a player in an alley. Two claymores (even one) can block access to key points in many maps. Plus, most griefers work in groups. I point and laugh at this suggestion.

As already suggested in the other thread, allow mines to be marked which will then appear as distinct persistent dots on the mini map. Once marked, enemies will also be prevented from entering into the trigger zone of a Claymore as are friendlies. Marking a Claymore will automatically shield your team from becoming a casualty.

What?! Marked claymores become walls? How the hell does this happen? See above for why claymore walls are bad in general, but this is even more ridiculous. Simply knowing something is bad does not make you unable to get near it. Should a teammate spotting a tank out restrict you from being able to move to a location that would put you in harms way?

Enable the movement restriction into a trigger zone to be overriden (e.g. by holding down the <alt> key while moving). Forcibly entering a trigger zone will cause detonation and damage to friendlies and enemies alike. Allow this option for squads with a medic on hand who need to get past the mine.

This actually has some merit to it. Though I still don't like the idea of a restriction of movement due to a placeable object, this idea strikes me as one that would come useful should a restriction be put in place. Though again, no restriction SHOULD be put in place.

Bottom line is that claymores are an annoyance that WILL NOT GO AWAY. There is no 'easy solution' or 'quick fix'. Dice/EA have already realized that. The NUMBER ONE complaint was that claymores were immune. They listened, and made it so they could be destroyed by explosives. Then the number one complaint was that with explosives, claymores were pointless, and that claymores killed too many friendlies to be useful. They listened, and made it so claymores cannot be destroyed by explosives, and that they WILL NOT KILL TEAMMATES. This is the ONLY lethal thing in the game (other than AT mines, which are in a similar category) that only harm specific players. They made a script JUST TO SOLVE THIS COMPLAINT.

No matter WHAT they do, players WILL complain. Why waste the effort?

Personally, while I do get very annoyed everytime I see claymore spam, or get killed by a claymore I can't avoid even though I know it's there, I prefer it this way. If anything, it further emphasizes the neccessity of teamwork in this game. It makes the medic role more important, and forces squadmates to work together ("Claymore there, watch out"). Plus, if you want to remove the claymore, kill the sniper who placed it, and the claymore will dissappear in ~30 seconds. Grenades do wonders for snipers on low roofs, and most snipers on high roofs lean over the edge, making them easy prey for ground fire.

~Salad

[Slacker317]

Re: Novel Solution to Claymores

Although I like the idea of spotting mines and claymores for the mini-map, all that would do is add to the unbelievable spam of icons that already flood the mini-map. Sometimes, I hate playing medic because I can't see the enemy dots on my mini-map due to the death icons from teammates.

With as many snipers and engineers that play the game, that would lead to far too many spots for mines and claymores in the game. Then you'd never see the enemies or worse, that tank that is about to kill you.

At least it's an idea. I'm only trying to give constructive criticism.

[volkl]

Re: Novel Solution to Claymores

Since I'm bored and have nothing better to do, let's have some fun.~Salad

Apparently too bored to carefully read my post before responding. Maybe you missed the problem statement about too many teamkills necessitating the unfortunate placement restriction. Despite your harping on placement restriction you then proceeded to forget about it in your example of trapping a friendly in an alley.

Did you happen to do the "we'll never make it voiceovers" for Glum? If/when you read it with careful objective analysis, I'll take the time to respond seriously.

Although I like the idea of spotting mines and claymores for the mini-map, all that would do is add to the unbelievable spam of icons that already flood the mini-map. Sometimes, I hate playing medic because I can't see the enemy dots on my mini-map due to the death icons from teammates.

With as many snipers and engineers that play the game, that would lead to far too many spots for mines and claymores in the game. Then you'd never see the enemies or worse, that tank that is about to kill you.

At least it's an idea. I'm only trying to give constructive criticism.

This is good feedback. Agreed, it would add clutter to the mini-map. A better alternative might be for the skull and crossbones to appear on marked enemy mines in addition to the automatic movement restriction. Then the player isn't left wondering why they ran into an invisible wall.

[Roger Smith]

Re: Novel Solution to Claymores

bah, here is the real solution. have the team damage on claymores turned off, so teammates set them off but it doesnt hurt them. also the fact that explosives dont destroy claymores is very very lame, there is no good reason for this.

[Deadeye313]

Re: Novel Solution to Claymores

how about just allowing C4 or tank shells to blow up claymores? surely if there's enough explosive to kill a tank it can take out a small box of metal balls.

also, crawling should make you fairly immune to claymores. How about this:

Make Crawling engineers immune to claymores. This allows them to disarm the thing but makes them vulnerable to anyone who's watching from the otherside of the claymore. Although you could crawl through the left fence on Karkand, if there's a support trooper on the other side, you'll never get up.

That's a little more logical than anything. Republic Commando did a great job with the idea.

[Uberduber]

Re: Novel Solution to Claymores

bah, here is the real solution. have the team damage on claymores turned off, so teammates set them off but it doesnt hurt them. also the fact that explosives dont destroy claymores is very very lame, there is no good reason for this.

Then you'll have team mates running through them the second they are placed, "just for fun." You have to realize if there is ANY way to grief a player/teammate, most BF2 players will take it. Not getting punished (scorewise, or death count) for griefing a team mate? Even better!!
Imagine how frustrating "invisible walls", teammates running through your claymores and setting them off leaving you defenseless, etc etc would all be...

My $0.02: I would like to see claymores destructible again, a well placed claymore should be hidden anyways. Not detonating when players are prone would be a decent solution aswell.

[Slapidus]

Re: Novel Solution to Claymores

Id like to see claymores change where you have to be to actually step on it instead of being 40 yards away and boom your gone

[Roger Smith]

Re: Novel Solution to Claymores

Then you'll have team mates running through them the second they are placed, "just for fun."

a sniper shouldnt be using claymores for anything but defending thier sniping position, thats why it doesnt matter, because unless you are a squad leader, you wont have anyteammates near your claymores.

[Ali G]

Re: Novel Solution to Claymores

and why would EA do this for free? hmmm?

[Roger Smith]

Re: Novel Solution to Claymores

i dont think anyone here wants to acknowledge what claymores are supposed to be used for. they are supposed to be to defend a static sniper, no not to defend a flag, not to booby trap a hallway so people have to go around, not for a roadside bomb. so if we can acknowledge these things, most of the suggestions in this thread are ludicris. lets review:

Implement game logic that does not allow Claymores to be placed if any friendlies are within ~50 yards. This will pretty much prevent them from being used in Karkand alleys while still protecting snipers hiding on hillsides.

im guessing this is with the reverted claymores that blowup and kill friendlies? what happens when a guy places a claymore and a friendly enters that 50 yards later.

Friendlies may not enter into the trigger zone of a Claymore. They are blocked as if running into a wall. The idea that friendly troops can rush through a mined area immune to threats is absurd. This prevents teamkills, preserves the efforts the sniper who has placed the mine, and discourages abuse of alleyways. Note, the limit of two Claymores and the above placement restriction should prevent an exploit by griefers.

invisable walls, no, just no.
[quote=volkl]As already suggested in the other thread, allow mines to be marked which will then appear as distinct persistent dots on the mini map. Once marked, enemies will also be prevented from entering into the trigger zone of a Claymore as are friendlies. Marking a Claymore will automatically shield your team from becoming a casualty.[quote=volkl]
enemys cant enter a claymore trigger zone, then wtf is the point?

Enable the movement restriction into a trigger zone to be overriden (e.g. by holding down the <alt> key while moving). Forcibly entering a trigger zone will cause detonation and damage to friendlies and enemies alike. Allow this option for squads with a medic on hand who need to get past the mine.

man you are freaking crazy.

how about just allowing C4 or tank shells to blow up claymores? surely if there's enough explosive to kill a tank it can take out a small box of metal balls.

a claymore uses motion sensor, a rock could set it off man.

also, crawling should make you fairly immune to claymores.

ok once again, i dont think you understand the concept of a motion sensor, when you crawl, it doesnt make you any less senced.
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the answer is very simple, have them detonate on teammates but not hurt them, and to have ANY explosive destroy them, hell even a bullet should destroy them.

the claymore is supposed to be a hidden booby trap to defend a sniper in a static position. so being able to destroy it, means that hiding them would be more important. with that in mind, its crazy that we cant detonate them, we should be rewarded with being able to pass an area if we spot it.

weve seen first hand what happens with and without friendly damage on them. when teammates could set them off and damage on, idiots got tked and punished, so nobody used them. now teammates cant set them off, so they get used for base defence, roadside bombs, and general route blocking, which is not what they are for.

so now they are used in base defence because teammates dont set them off, and before they werent used at all because teammates set them off and got tked, the obvious answer is to make teammates set them off but not get hurt. this would make it so you have to use them in the correct manner if you want them to do thier job, but at the same time, you wouldnt be punished with tks for bad placment.

[Pilo-II]

Re: Novel Solution to Claymores

How about this, allow claymores to be destroyed, when it gets destroyed, a certain 'sound' would let the sniper know that his/hers claymore has been destroyed, be cautios! And the rest... use your brain!

Destroyable by team mates but no damage to them? :laugh: hell no! KILL THEM! - THE ONLY way to stop claywhoring is to chage so it kills teammates - lets face it, no one wants the minus points!


Another idea, chage RoE so that an admin would have the right to kick/ban the claywhore spammers :laugh:


Ugh, really hate them idiots, trying to get their stupid 'explosive badge'...