cs: source impressions

[SushiEF101]

I never had a problem with ambient noises. If you concentrate on the game itself, and your targets, you wont even hear the ambeint noises.

[entRo]

Thortok2000 wrote..

You could aptly say that it's annoying and you don't like it. That's a matter of opinion. But to say that "skilled people should play without ambient sound" is clueless. You may as well play with unlimited ammo, because skilled people shouldn't have to reload. It's "team vs. team vs. ammo clips."

You can control your ammo and reloading, you can't control ambience (given that stopsound is taken away). I don't see how taking ambience away makes the game easier as you say my argument revolves around. If everyone in the match/scrim/whatever uses it, what advantage does anyone have that makes the game easier? Taking stopsound away, everyone hears the ambience, so how is the game becoming any more difficult? With the way CS is, both teams will have a chance to take advantage of the ambient sounds. Ambience isn't a factor like.. say dizziness, that would make the game more difficult for everyone by overriding their skill abilities.



But for arguments sake, it's annoying and I hate it. :]

[HankPym]

entRo wrote..

I don't see how taking ambience away makes the game easier as you say my argument revolves around. If everyone in the match/scrim/whatever uses it, what advantage does anyone have that makes the game easier?

The stopsound command makes the game easier to play than it is when you endure the ambient sounds. Surely even you agree to that.



Your argument completely falls apart when you assume that everyone in a match uses it. I've known about the command for years, but don't use it. That puts me at a disadvantage over those who use it.



Why don't I use it? Because the ambient sounds are part of the map. In my eyes, using stopsound alters the map in the same fundamental way as, say, using a command to make the walls transparent. It's changing the intended dynamic of the map deliberately. If it weren't a console command it would be considered a cheat.



Which gets me to my final point. Your position is that practically everyone uses stopsound already, and therefore the few who don't should start. That's disurbingly akin to the argument that cheating is rampant in the game, so we all may as well download cheats as well.

[Thortok2000]

entRo wrote..

You can control your ammo and reloading, you can't control ambience (given that stopsound is taken away). I don't see how taking ambience away makes the game easier as you say my argument revolves around.

I've made ample points as to why using stop sound makes the game easier (especially in locating your enemy). Again, I refer you to my first post, Stopsound > de_aztec.



Stopsound makes it easier to hear your enemy make noise. Note the underlined word.

If everyone in the match/scrim/whatever uses it, what advantage does anyone have that makes the game easier?

And obviously if everyone uses anything (good or bad), then nobody will have the advantage over anyone else, because everyone's using it. The point that we're arguing is that NOT everyone is using it. If you want everyone using (or not using) it, then make it a server variable, not a console command.

Taking stopsound away, everyone hears the ambience, so how is the game becoming any more difficult?

Because some people have the skill to tune it out and some people are so caught up on how annoying it is that they either avoid certain parts of the map or become distracted at crucial moments. Also, on de_aztec in particular, some sounds (such as people running in water) blend in very well with the ambient sound of the storm, making it difficult to locate them by sound.

With the way CS is, both teams will have a chance to take advantage of the ambient sounds. Ambience isn't a factor like.. say dizziness, that would make the game more difficult for everyone by overriding their skill abilities.

Just because both sides can do it doesn't make it any less cheating. Imagine in a racing video game, someone enters in a code to make his car go twice as fast. Then the other person enters in the same code. They're both cheating, so it's fair? What if someone doesn't know the code? It'd be simpler to have a 'speed' setting for the battle, set before you play, so that everyone (or no one) benefits.



It's still arguably fair if both people cheat, however, so one must look at what they designed the game to be. In CS's case, the map makers intentionally included the sounds. If the sounds 'get in your way and annoy you', you may as well complain about the walls. It's part of the map and should be dealt with.

But for arguments sake, it's annoying and I hate it. :]

Got it.

[Stagger Lee]

Good Point HankPym. Perhaps it's not as drastic as cheating but it is changing the map from it's intended purpose. It's why I typically don't use it. Just on Italy. I also used it back when Office' garage door malfunctioned a while back. (Anyone remember that?....geez.)

As someone who has never DL'ed the first cheat nor even changed sounds, models or skins for the same reasons you bring up, I like your points.

I knew someone who had a cartoon skin where enemies heads were huge and he could see them behind any crate or box. He had the nerve to say it wasn't cheating because anyone could download it!

[0marTheZealot]

Ambiance isn't a problem as long as the looped sounds aren't :



1. Annoying. The original Aztec's crickets come to mind. No way could one play on that map for 15+ mintues w/o getting a headache. Italy's jukebox is also annoying.



2. Very loud. Most ambient sounds should be that. Ambient. Not screeching to the fore-front obscuring everything. If the rain was 2 notches quieter, then no one would have a problem.



3. Boring. Every map so far has boring ambient sounds. Spice it up a bit please.



Honestly as long as thsoe criteria are met, ambient sounds aren't a problem. I definately wouldn't mind them in CS:S.

[entRo]

HankPym wrote..

The stopsound command makes the game easier to play than it is when you endure the ambient sounds. Surely even you agree to that.

It makes the game easier in a player vs. map sense. Looking at it as team vs. team, it may make the game easier for a time, but it will make it equally hard for an equal amount of time later on.

Your argument completely falls apart when you assume that everyone in a match uses it. I've known about the command for years, but don't use it. That puts me at a disadvantage over those who use it.

If you're talking about public play, I already stated, I know everyone doesn't use it, and I wouldn't really mind it being a server option for public play. If we're talking from a competitive/league sense, it doesn't matter if it was meant to be apart of the game or not. The shield happens to be in the game, CAL doesn't allow it. Should I buy the shield in rebellion, screaming "IT WAS MEANT TO BE THIS WAY!" and get myself a suspension? Maybe next season. You don't have to use it in league play if you don't want, but when it is a widely accepted action, you're simply putting yourself at a disadvantage. That's your choice.

Why don't I use it? Because the ambient sounds are part of the map. In my eyes, using stopsound alters the map in the same fundamental way as, say, using a command to make the walls transparent.

There's those, like yourself, who like to play the game to enjoy the game. I, and others like me, like playing the game to be better than someone else. I wouldn't go as far to say it's comparable to wallhacking. Look at it this way: We have Skill, and over it is this net called "ambience". Skill can still be seen through the net, but Skill would be better off if the net would release it. I'm not saying ambient sounds impare someone's playing ability that badly, but it's simply not helping skill to be a more dedicing factor in the game. Really, the only map I use stopsound on is aztec. I kind of like the birds on train. :]

It's changing the intended dynamic of the map deliberately.

What if de_dust had a screeching, ambient beep constantly playing that made everything else inaudible? Would you change it then? If you did, you'd be altering the intended "dynamic" of the map.

If it weren't a console command it would be considered a cheat.

Really? I hike my brightness up through the drivers for my graphics card. Is that a cheat?

Which gets me to my final point. Your position is that practically everyone uses stopsound already, and therefore the few who don't should start. That's disurbingly akin to the argument that cheating is rampant in the game, so we all may as well download cheats as well.

Again, public play is completely irrelevent. Those who don't use stopsound, don't have to if they don't want to, but that's their choice and they shouldn't be complaining about others who use it. Holding stopsound as a cheat simply doesn't make sense. What if a league were to release de_aztecx or something, which was exactly the same thing, without ambient sounds and rain? Essentially, they are doing the same thing stopsound does. You could say that "well not everyone knows about stopsound, and everyone would know about the de_aztecx", and you'd be right. Not EVERYONE knows about it, but a damn large majority do. Those who don't, will probably find out real soon from a teammate or someone else.

Thortok2000 wrote..

I've made ample points as to why using stop sound makes the game easier (especially in locating your enemy). Again, I refer you to my first post, Stopsound > de_aztec.

See above

Stopsound makes it easier to hear your enemy make noise. Note the underlined word.

Yep, and having it allowed also allows your opponents to hear you make noise. It balances out.

And obviously if everyone uses anything (good or bad), then nobody will have the advantage over anyone else, because everyone's using it. The point that we're arguing is that NOT everyone is using it. If you want everyone using (or not using) it, then make it a server variable, not a console command.

For pubs, yea, I agree. Or make it a bindable key in the controls menu. Then those who still don't know about it, have no excuse except ignorance. Either one would work for me.

Because some people have the skill to tune it out and some people are so caught up on how annoying it is that they either avoid certain parts of the map or become distracted at crucial moments. Also, on de_aztec in particular, some sounds (such as people running in water) blend in very well with the ambient sound of the storm, making it difficult to locate them by sound.

I'm sorry, but if you can hear the ambient noises, hearing things underneath them will be very difficult regardless of your hearing abilities. If your hearing sucks, you wont hear anything well. If your hearing is good, you'll hear the footsteps better, and the ambient noises also better.

Just because both sides can do it doesn't make it any less cheating. Imagine in a racing video game, someone enters in a code to make his car go twice as fast. Then the other person enters in the same code. They're both cheating, so it's fair? What if someone doesn't know the code? It'd be simpler to have a 'speed' setting for the battle, set before you play, so that everyone (or no one) benefits.

Like you're about to say below, it's still fair.

It's still arguably fair if both people cheat, however, so one must look at what they designed the game to be. In CS's case, the map makers intentionally included the sounds. If the sounds 'get in your way and annoy you', you may as well complain about the walls. It's part of the map and should be dealt with.

In a public sense, yea, the game is to be taken for what it is. In a competitive sense, the league designates what you can and can't do. See the shield reference. As far as walls go? Yea, let's do away with them! Kidding. Walls bring strategy into play, another element of skill. Had you no walls, strategy would be very minimal. It would come down to an aim map, where the player with the best aim and movement skills would win most of the time. I'd rather we have a strategic side to CS so the game doesn't come down to a fragfest, and actually requires some thinking for success. fy_iceworld has no real strategy to it, though it has walls, but that's because it's just the most ridiculous excuse for a map ever.



There was a big black spider up on the cieling while I was typing this, and now it's gone and I'm scared. :[

[sardiax]

i think a big difference here is whether you consider the ability to hear over ambience/account for ambience a part of 'skill'.



lets say we have 'skill', and over this skill is a web called 'aiming'. you can still make-out the skill through the aiming, but perhaps the skill would be better off if the aiming were removed.



to me that sounds obsurd, and i'm sure it sounds obsurd to most of you too, i'm fairly certain its believed by most that aiming is a part of skill in counter-strike. i believe that being able to account for ambient sounds is also a part of that skill. i also believe they can add more to the strategic element of the game, its one of the things i feel makes counter-strike counter-strike, instead of just quake with modern weapons.



i'll just say that to me it seems that counter-strike : source is definitely going to be more like counter-strike should be than the current counter-strike.

[Thortok2000]

entRo wrote..

What if de_dust had a screeching, ambient beep constantly playing that made everything else inaudible? Would you change it then? If you did, you'd be altering the intended "dynamic" of the map.

If dust had that kind of problem, most people simply wouldn't play it.

Really? I hike my brightness up through the drivers for my graphics card. Is that a cheat?

I've been trying to do the same myself. To me, this is the price you pay for releasing the game on computer systems where things such as brightness and FPS will vary.

Again, public play is completely irrelevent. Those who don't use stopsound, don't have to if they don't want to, but that's their choice and they shouldn't be complaining about others who use it. Holding stopsound as a cheat simply doesn't make sense. What if a league were to release de_aztecx or something, which was exactly the same thing, without ambient sounds and rain? Essentially, they are doing the same thing stopsound does. You could say that "well not everyone knows about stopsound, and everyone would know about the de_aztecx", and you'd be right. Not EVERYONE knows about it, but a damn large majority do. Those who don't, will probably find out real soon from a teammate or someone else.

We've already made the suggestion of a server-side variable. I don't care if everyone or nobody knows about stopsound, if one person uses it and another doesn't, the one who uses it has the advantage.

Yep, and having it allowed also allows your opponents to hear you make noise. It balances out.

It balances out to be a game involving less skill than it otherwise would.

For pubs, yea, I agree. Or make it a bindable key in the controls menu. Then those who still don't know about it, have no excuse except ignorance. Either one would work for me.

A server-side variable. As a skill-affecting part of the game, it should apply to all the players on that server, having ambient noise or not having it.

I'm sorry, but if you can hear the ambient noises, hearing things underneath them will be very difficult regardless of your hearing abilities. If your hearing sucks, you wont hear anything well. If your hearing is good, you'll hear the footsteps better, and the ambient noises also better.

Say this again so it makes sense, please?

Like you're about to say below, it's still fair.

Still arguably fair. I don't think of it as being fair to the game itself.

In a public sense, yea, the game is to be taken for what it is. In a competitive sense, the league designates what you can and can't do. See the shield reference. As far as walls go? Yea, let's do away with them! Kidding. Walls bring strategy into play, another element of skill. Had you no walls, strategy would be very minimal. It would come down to an aim map, where the player with the best aim and movement skills would win most of the time. I'd rather we have a strategic side to CS so the game doesn't come down to a fragfest, and actually requires some thinking for success. fy_iceworld has no real strategy to it, though it has walls, but that's because it's just the most ridiculous excuse for a map ever.

Ambient noise brings strategy into play, another element of skill. Had you no ambient noise, audial strategy would be very minimal. It would come down to a very simple map, where any player that isn't deaf will hear every sound the enemy makes. I'd rather we have a strategic side to CS so the game doesn't come down to 'run or walk', and actually requires some thinking for success.

There was a big black spider up on the cieling while I was typing this, and now it's gone and I'm scared. :[

Call Spider-man!

[calleqvist83]

NUKE!!!! why didnt he say anything about de_nuke... that has to come with

[entRo]

Thortok2000 wrote..

Call Spider-man!

Since you said that, I wont even respond to the rest of your post and just say you're right, even though I disagree. :]

[Thortok2000]

entRo wrote..

Since you said that, I wont even respond to the rest of your post and just say you're right, even though I disagree. :]

Heh. ^.^



Basically it boils down to this. In CS 1.6, most ambient noise is annoying and significant advantage can be gained from using stopsound, so nearly everyone who knows about it, uses it (especially in competitive environments).



What I and others who agree with me are saying is that they hope that CS:S will contain ambience that is more strategic, less annoying, and cannot be muted. Is it wrong to hope for the best?

[RocketSauce]

I can't believe I just read 5 straight pages of debate about the stopsound command. I think this argument has been effectively run into the ground. I hope you guys are paying this much attention to the election.

[crazychicken]

theres almost no sound in cs as it is , i regard the ambient sound as a welcome intrusion seeing as they are basically cs's music



also apart from maybe on aztec a little bit they dont stop me hearing the enemy any less, the only annoying sound are the crickets

[Safety_man]

wut map are the crickets on?