BF2: A Game For Terrorist Training?

[Griffon2-6]

Re: BF2: A Game For Terrorist Training?

That is just retarded, I'm glad I don't live in the US now. If Congress thinks DICE is a terrorist organization based in SWEDEN, then I fear for the future of the US. Also, you can never compare a game to real life combat, as gamey balance solutions, weapon characteristics, exploits, etc. is not evident in real combat. Hell, they don't even know how popular BF2 is, is everyone going to become a terrorist? There are just no more words to describe the stupidity of this situation. I bet the generals sitting there were having a good laugh.

Also, if terrorists want to train with computer games, good for them. Good for them. They'll die faster, and they'll be dolphin diving, instaproning (breaking their own ribs in the process), grenade spamming, n00b t00bing (well, they already do that lol), and the sort. It'll only get them killed faster and easier. What, they think they can just run into the middle of a combat zone and spray and pray? They'll hurt themselves first!

[DeutschKSK]

Re: BF2: A Game For Terrorist Training?

Americans... no offense to anyone but this is just too funny.

[ohlem]

Re: BF2: A Game For Terrorist Training?

No I wasn't being sarcastic........




Here's the report....




Link to NGIR(National Guard Intelligence report)

http://hotair.ord.cachefly.net/images/2006-05/iraq-doc.pdf

Hannity and Colmes Coverage

http://hotair.com/archives/top-picks/2006/06/21/video-santorum-hoekstra-mcinerney-talk-wmd-on-hc/

Am I wrong now?

[jarm8181]

Re: BF2: A Game For Terrorist Training?

You americans should really think about making IQ tests manditory for anyone wishing to go into politics, anyone under 100 should not be allowed

Agreed, and I'm sure whatever country you're from I'd give you the same advice for your politicians. Politicians are an equal opportunity offender, doesn't matter what nationality.

[AP_piano295]

Re: BF2: A Game For Terrorist Training?

No I wasn't being sarcastic........




Here's the report....




Link to NGIR(National Guard Intelligence report)

http://hotair.ord.cachefly.net/images/2006-05/iraq-doc.pdf

Hannity and Colmes Coverage

http://hotair.com/archives/top-picks/2006/06/21/video-santorum-hoekstra-mcinerney-talk-wmd-on-hc/

Am I wrong now?

Soooooo they still have a couple of the weapons that Bush senior... gave to them... maybe.

And you've lost a credability with me for posting a link to a fox video.

I love our countrys policys though we give a bad man chemical weapons... we get angry that he used the weapons WE gave him and invade him. Then 10 years latter we start a war with him because he still has some of the weapons WE gave to him.

WOAH I just had a killer idea if we dont want people using chemical weapons lets... not build them chemical weapons????? ahh mebe thats a stupid idea.

[jarm8181]

Re: BF2: A Game For Terrorist Training?

$7 Million? SO WHAT!?!?! This country has what, 300 million people in it? $0.02 per person....OH NOES I CANT AFFORD MY double whip, half soy, half hazelnut, no fat, quarter sugar, double espresso frappucino because $0.00000003 was wasted on ONE mistake made by somebody on the intelligence committee! Uhh...no...

That's not the point. It's principle and 7 million dollars wasted here, and another 3 billion wasted somewhere else, and the sh*t starts to add up. I guess you never worked in accounting? It adds up REAL FAST. And the principle being, we pay taxes, that is men with guns force us to give up part of our money, so that they can completely squander it on things that don't make us any safer.

BTW, all 300,000 million people in this country actually doesn't pay taxes. Children pay no taxes, and people under a certain income pay no taxes, and people who receive welfare or disability, pay no taxes.

[imported_Iridium]

Re: BF2: A Game For Terrorist Training?

Anyone claiming that those few hundred gas shells from the iran war are "WMD's" is really grasping for straws. They probably WERE funded by the U.S., since we were all buddy-buddy back then, when we looked at Iraq as a secular ally (albiet not the best one) in a region full of islamic extremist theocracies, and not a potential stepping stone to world domination.

[ohlem]

Re: BF2: A Game For Terrorist Training?

Oh, wait that's right, you're liberal? You want A cnn version?


LOL!
I don't think 500+ is a "couple"










1991, April 18. Iraq delivers its first official report to the U.N. on its unconventional weapons. They acknowledge limited production of chemical weapons but do not mention nuclear or biological weapons. It is later learned the top Iraqi official have been ordered by Tariq Aziz to hide all evidence of these weapons, as well their stocks of VX (an advanced nerve agent), from inspectors.

1991, August 2. UNSCOM’s first biological inspections team arrives in Iraq. They are given a one-page statement that acknowledges that they performed biological research for defensive military purposes.

Between 1991 and 1998 UNSCOM succeeded in identifying and destroying very large quantities of chemical weapons and ballistic missiles as well as associated production facilities. The IAEA also destroyed the infrastructure for Iraq's nuclear weapons program and removed key nuclear materials. This was achieved despite a continuous and sophisticated program of harassment, obstruction, deception and denial. Because of this UNSCOM concluded by 1998 that it was unable to fulfill its mandate. The inspectors were withdrawn in December 1998.

From Iraqi declarations to the UN after the Gulf War we know that by 1991 Iraq had produced a variety of delivery means for chemical and biological agents including over 16,000 free-fall bombs and over 110,000 artillery rockets and shells. Iraq also admitted to the UN Special Commission (UNSCOM) that it had 50 chemical and 25 biological warheads available for its ballistic missiles.

UNSCOM discovers samples of indigenously-produced highly enriched uranium, forcing Iraq's acknowledgment of uranium enrichment programs and attempts to preserve key components of its prohibited nuclear weapons program.

1991, September. CIA identifies 8 sites suspected of germ production. On the list is Al Hakem which the Iraqis claim is just a warehouse, but is surrounded by security fences spaced 2 miles apart. When inspectors arrive the Iraqis change their story and say that it is a factory for making animal feed. At the time of their visit it is in fact making animal feed, but suspicions are aroused because of medical quality of the equipment and the fact that the plant is staffed by highly trained micro-biologists. It would later be proved that this facility had been one of Iraq's primary bio-weapons production lines, making tons of Botulinin and Anthrax. It is a perfect example of a “dual-use” facility.

1995. After four years of deception, Iraq finally admits it had a crash nuclear weapons program prior to the Gulf War. Were it not for that war, the regime in Iraq would likely have possessed a nuclear weapon no later than 1993.

In July, after being presented with proof that they have been lying, Iraq admits that Al-Hakam is, in fact, a bio-weapons facility that had been used to produce Botulinum and Anthrax. They present what they claim is a complete disclosure of their program. In it they claim all stockpiles were destroyed after the war with Iran.

A month later, Lieutenant General Hussein Kamael, a son-in-law of Saddam, and the man who had run Iraq’s bio-weapons program defects to Jordan. Assuming he is about to spill his guts to the U.N. (incorrectly it turns out), Iraqi officials claim they have “discovered” a new cache of documents on a chicken-farm owned by Kamel. It detailed the weaponization of thousands of liters of Anthrax, Botulinum toxin, and Aflatoxin for use with Scud warheads, aerial bombs and aircraft.

Saddam uses prisoners as test subjects for chemical and biological warfare experiments. 1,600 death-row inmates are transfered to a special unit for this purpose. An eye witness sees prisoners tied down to beds, experiments conducted on them, blood oozing around the victim's mouths and autopsies performed to confirm the effects.

1995, April. UNSCOM reports to the UN Security Council that Iraq had concealed its biological weapons program and had failed to account for 3 tons of growth material for biological agents.

1997. Andrew Weber, a U.S. diplomat involved in arranging inspections and scientific exchanges between Russia and the U.S., talks to two scientists from the Oblensk State Research Center of Applied Microbiology while visiting Moscow. He is told that a delegation of Iranians had recently visited the Oblensk and and Vector facilitie as well as others. The Iranians were on a recruiting mission, offering $5,000 per month salaries to Russian microbiologist willing to come to work in Iran. Similar delegations from Iraq, Libya and North Korea have visited Russia. Several Russian scientists are known to have accepted these offers. The exact number is not known, but the whereabouts of many former Biopreparat employees is unknown.

1997. UNSCOM discoveres evidence that Iraq is producing Ricin in quantity.

1997, June. UNSCOM reports that one of their Iraqi escorts attempted to wrest the controls of a U.N. helicopter from its Chilean pilots to keep it from flying over a suspected arms site and even threatened to shut off the fuel pump to the engine, stating he would, “do whatever he could to stop the aircraft from flying." In another case an Iraqi helicpoter blocked the progress of a U.N. helicopter by flying dangerously close to it.

1998, November 11. U.N. weapons inspectors are kicked out of Iraq by Saddam. Based on the UNSCOM report to the UN Security Council in January 1999 and earlier UNSCOM reports, when the UN inspectors left Iraq they were unable to account for: up to 360 tonnes of bulk chemical warfare agent, including 1.5 tons of VX nerve agent; up to 3,000 tons of precursor chemicals, including approximately 300 tons of which, in the Iraqi chemical warfare program, were unique to the production of VX; growth media procured for biological agent production (enough to produce over three times the 8,500 liters of anthrax spores Iraq admits to having manufactured); over 30,000 special munitions for delivery of chemical and biological agents. During their tenure, UNSCOM turns up several “cookbooks” for chemical and biological weapons.

1999, January. The UN Special Commission reports that Iraq failed to provide credible evidence that 550 mustard gas-filled artillery shells and 400 biological weapons-capable aerial bombs had been lost or destroyed.

1999, April. A man claiming to be Saddam’s former personal driver publishes a book in Britain. He quotes Saddam as saying he might one day use the West Nile virus against his enemies.

1999, August. An outbreak of West Nile Virus strikes New York. 62 people become ill and seven die. Most doctors are stumped by the flu-like symptoms, but an astute lab-technician notifies the CDC which confirms West Nile. The Mayor orders spraying the city for mosquitoes, which prevents a wider outbreak. This is the first known outbreak in North America. Experts still don’t know how the virus found its way to New York from the Middle-East.

2001. An Iraqi defector, Adnan Ihsan Saeed al-Haideri, says he has visited twenty secret facilities for chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. Mr. Saeed, a civil engineer, supports his claims with stacks of Iraqi government contracts, complete with technical specifications. Mr. Saeed said Iraq uses front companies to purchase dual-use equipment with the blessing of the United Nations – and then secretly used the equipment for their weapons programs.

2001. Iraq announces that it will begin renovating the al-Dawrah Foot and Mouth Disease Vaccine Facility, one of two known bio-containment, level-three, facilities in Iraq that have an extensive air handling and filtering system. Iraq has admitted that this was a biological weapons facility. Iraq starts the plant without UN approval, ostensibly to produce vaccines that it could more easily and more quickly import through the UN.

2001, December. Adnan Saeed al-Haideri, a specialist in Iraq’s nuclear program defects. al-Haideri identifies 300 separate clandestine sites used by Iraq to hide biological and chemical weapons, and nuclear materials. Some of the equipment is hidden in lead containers stored in fake wells lined with concrete. Al-Haideri an advanced epoxies specialist said he was called in to seal cracks in the concrete because the Iraqis feared U.S. surveillance satellites would pick up the slightest radioactive emissions.

2002. A former Iraqi intelligence officer responsible for setting up front companies for illegal overseas purchases claims that Iraq has arranged to purchase nuclear weapons material (including uranium) from Armscor, South Africa’s state armaments directorate. During the Iran-Iraq war Armscor supplied Iraq with advanced 155mm howitzers. These sales are handled through a front company in Jordan.

For five years he personally ran a procurement network based in Dubai for the Special Security Organization, the elite of Saddam's vast intelligence apparatus, in charge of overseas procurement and responsible for hiding key equipment and material for Saddam's weapons programs. He was arrested by the regime in 1998, viciously tortured, given an injection of thalium and dumped on the street. Bleeding from his nose, mouth and stomach, he managed to escape to Northern Iraq and ultimately to Turkey, where human-rights workers treat him successfully for thallium poisoning Thalium poisonig a favorite method of the regime for executing its enemies, becasue it causes a slow, painful death.

2003, January 16. Previously undisclosed warheads for chemical weapons are discovered by UN inspectors. A joint UNMOVIC/IAEA team also find a significant cache of documents related to Iraq’s uranium enrichment program in the home of Iraqi scientist Faleh Hassan.

“Inspectors going in now will have an almost impossible task to discover what’s going on in the nuclear field.... Since the inspectors left, Saddam has had four years at least to hide what needs to be hidden. Now he’s well on the road, his game will be to stall and stall — if America lets him.” - Dr Hamza, Former head of Iraq’s Nuclear development program.

“Time is on my side.” - Saddam Hussein.

[AP_piano295]

Re: BF2: A Game For Terrorist Training?

No i just prefer news where the casters dont openly take the conservitives side and then scream at the liberal speaker.

Find me video of a CNN news caster telling conservatives to shut up and cut their mic and then i'll take you seriously. Wait the people on CNN are real news casters so they dont tell anyone to shut up or cut anybodys mic just because they disagree with their way of thinking!!!

hmmm your statement above doesnt mention the fact we gave them the ability to build these weapons. IT WAS OUR FAULT HE GOT THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE

Also it notes in the report the weapons that were found were "degraded"

degraded-Having been reduced in quality or value
This sounds to me like the weapons werent necesarilly funtional ne more.

[truckstop]

Re: BF2: A Game For Terrorist Training?

Oh, wait that's right, you're liberal? You want A cnn version?


LOL!
I don't think 500+ is a "couple"










1991, April 18. Iraq delivers its first official report to the U.N. on its unconventional weapons. They acknowledge limited production of chemical weapons but do not mention nuclear or biological weapons. It is later learned the top Iraqi official have been ordered by Tariq Aziz to hide all evidence of these weapons, as well their stocks of VX (an advanced nerve agent), from inspectors.

1991, August 2. UNSCOM’s first biological inspections team arrives in Iraq. They are given a one-page statement that acknowledges that they performed biological research for defensive military purposes.

Between 1991 and 1998 UNSCOM succeeded in identifying and destroying very large quantities of chemical weapons and ballistic missiles as well as associated production facilities. The IAEA also destroyed the infrastructure for Iraq's nuclear weapons program and removed key nuclear materials. This was achieved despite a continuous and sophisticated program of harassment, obstruction, deception and denial. Because of this UNSCOM concluded by 1998 that it was unable to fulfill its mandate. The inspectors were withdrawn in December 1998.

From Iraqi declarations to the UN after the Gulf War we know that by 1991 Iraq had produced a variety of delivery means for chemical and biological agents including over 16,000 free-fall bombs and over 110,000 artillery rockets and shells. Iraq also admitted to the UN Special Commission (UNSCOM) that it had 50 chemical and 25 biological warheads available for its ballistic missiles.

UNSCOM discovers samples of indigenously-produced highly enriched uranium, forcing Iraq's acknowledgment of uranium enrichment programs and attempts to preserve key components of its prohibited nuclear weapons program.

1991, September. CIA identifies 8 sites suspected of germ production. On the list is Al Hakem which the Iraqis claim is just a warehouse, but is surrounded by security fences spaced 2 miles apart. When inspectors arrive the Iraqis change their story and say that it is a factory for making animal feed. At the time of their visit it is in fact making animal feed, but suspicions are aroused because of medical quality of the equipment and the fact that the plant is staffed by highly trained micro-biologists. It would later be proved that this facility had been one of Iraq's primary bio-weapons production lines, making tons of Botulinin and Anthrax. It is a perfect example of a “dual-use” facility.

1995. After four years of deception, Iraq finally admits it had a crash nuclear weapons program prior to the Gulf War. Were it not for that war, the regime in Iraq would likely have possessed a nuclear weapon no later than 1993.

In July, after being presented with proof that they have been lying, Iraq admits that Al-Hakam is, in fact, a bio-weapons facility that had been used to produce Botulinum and Anthrax. They present what they claim is a complete disclosure of their program. In it they claim all stockpiles were destroyed after the war with Iran.

A month later, Lieutenant General Hussein Kamael, a son-in-law of Saddam, and the man who had run Iraq’s bio-weapons program defects to Jordan. Assuming he is about to spill his guts to the U.N. (incorrectly it turns out), Iraqi officials claim they have “discovered” a new cache of documents on a chicken-farm owned by Kamel. It detailed the weaponization of thousands of liters of Anthrax, Botulinum toxin, and Aflatoxin for use with Scud warheads, aerial bombs and aircraft.

Saddam uses prisoners as test subjects for chemical and biological warfare experiments. 1,600 death-row inmates are transfered to a special unit for this purpose. An eye witness sees prisoners tied down to beds, experiments conducted on them, blood oozing around the victim's mouths and autopsies performed to confirm the effects.

1995, April. UNSCOM reports to the UN Security Council that Iraq had concealed its biological weapons program and had failed to account for 3 tons of growth material for biological agents.

1997. Andrew Weber, a U.S. diplomat involved in arranging inspections and scientific exchanges between Russia and the U.S., talks to two scientists from the Oblensk State Research Center of Applied Microbiology while visiting Moscow. He is told that a delegation of Iranians had recently visited the Oblensk and and Vector facilitie as well as others. The Iranians were on a recruiting mission, offering $5,000 per month salaries to Russian microbiologist willing to come to work in Iran. Similar delegations from Iraq, Libya and North Korea have visited Russia. Several Russian scientists are known to have accepted these offers. The exact number is not known, but the whereabouts of many former Biopreparat employees is unknown.

1997. UNSCOM discoveres evidence that Iraq is producing Ricin in quantity.

1997, June. UNSCOM reports that one of their Iraqi escorts attempted to wrest the controls of a U.N. helicopter from its Chilean pilots to keep it from flying over a suspected arms site and even threatened to shut off the fuel pump to the engine, stating he would, “do whatever he could to stop the aircraft from flying." In another case an Iraqi helicpoter blocked the progress of a U.N. helicopter by flying dangerously close to it.

1998, November 11. U.N. weapons inspectors are kicked out of Iraq by Saddam. Based on the UNSCOM report to the UN Security Council in January 1999 and earlier UNSCOM reports, when the UN inspectors left Iraq they were unable to account for: up to 360 tonnes of bulk chemical warfare agent, including 1.5 tons of VX nerve agent; up to 3,000 tons of precursor chemicals, including approximately 300 tons of which, in the Iraqi chemical warfare program, were unique to the production of VX; growth media procured for biological agent production (enough to produce over three times the 8,500 liters of anthrax spores Iraq admits to having manufactured); over 30,000 special munitions for delivery of chemical and biological agents. During their tenure, UNSCOM turns up several “cookbooks” for chemical and biological weapons.

1999, January. The UN Special Commission reports that Iraq failed to provide credible evidence that 550 mustard gas-filled artillery shells and 400 biological weapons-capable aerial bombs had been lost or destroyed.

1999, April. A man claiming to be Saddam’s former personal driver publishes a book in Britain. He quotes Saddam as saying he might one day use the West Nile virus against his enemies.

1999, August. An outbreak of West Nile Virus strikes New York. 62 people become ill and seven die. Most doctors are stumped by the flu-like symptoms, but an astute lab-technician notifies the CDC which confirms West Nile. The Mayor orders spraying the city for mosquitoes, which prevents a wider outbreak. This is the first known outbreak in North America. Experts still don’t know how the virus found its way to New York from the Middle-East.

2001. An Iraqi defector, Adnan Ihsan Saeed al-Haideri, says he has visited twenty secret facilities for chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. Mr. Saeed, a civil engineer, supports his claims with stacks of Iraqi government contracts, complete with technical specifications. Mr. Saeed said Iraq uses front companies to purchase dual-use equipment with the blessing of the United Nations – and then secretly used the equipment for their weapons programs.

2001. Iraq announces that it will begin renovating the al-Dawrah Foot and Mouth Disease Vaccine Facility, one of two known bio-containment, level-three, facilities in Iraq that have an extensive air handling and filtering system. Iraq has admitted that this was a biological weapons facility. Iraq starts the plant without UN approval, ostensibly to produce vaccines that it could more easily and more quickly import through the UN.

2001, December. Adnan Saeed al-Haideri, a specialist in Iraq’s nuclear program defects. al-Haideri identifies 300 separate clandestine sites used by Iraq to hide biological and chemical weapons, and nuclear materials. Some of the equipment is hidden in lead containers stored in fake wells lined with concrete. Al-Haideri an advanced epoxies specialist said he was called in to seal cracks in the concrete because the Iraqis feared U.S. surveillance satellites would pick up the slightest radioactive emissions.

2002. A former Iraqi intelligence officer responsible for setting up front companies for illegal overseas purchases claims that Iraq has arranged to purchase nuclear weapons material (including uranium) from Armscor, South Africa’s state armaments directorate. During the Iran-Iraq war Armscor supplied Iraq with advanced 155mm howitzers. These sales are handled through a front company in Jordan.

For five years he personally ran a procurement network based in Dubai for the Special Security Organization, the elite of Saddam's vast intelligence apparatus, in charge of overseas procurement and responsible for hiding key equipment and material for Saddam's weapons programs. He was arrested by the regime in 1998, viciously tortured, given an injection of thalium and dumped on the street. Bleeding from his nose, mouth and stomach, he managed to escape to Northern Iraq and ultimately to Turkey, where human-rights workers treat him successfully for thallium poisoning Thalium poisonig a favorite method of the regime for executing its enemies, becasue it causes a slow, painful death.

2003, January 16. Previously undisclosed warheads for chemical weapons are discovered by UN inspectors. A joint UNMOVIC/IAEA team also find a significant cache of documents related to Iraq’s uranium enrichment program in the home of Iraqi scientist Faleh Hassan.

“Inspectors going in now will have an almost impossible task to discover what’s going on in the nuclear field.... Since the inspectors left, Saddam has had four years at least to hide what needs to be hidden. Now he’s well on the road, his game will be to stall and stall — if America lets him.” - Dr Hamza, Former head of Iraq’s Nuclear development program.

“Time is on my side.” - Saddam Hussein.

the people at abc just dont get it..........

[ohlem]

Re: BF2: A Game For Terrorist Training?

No i just prefer news where the casters dont openly take the conservitives side and then scream at the liberal speaker.

Find me video of a CNN news caster telling conservatives to shut up and cut their mic and then i'll take you seriously. Wait the people on CNN are real news casters so they dont tell anyone to shut up or cut anybodys mic just because they disagree with their way of thinking!!!

hmmm your statement above doesnt mention the fact we gave them the ability to build these weapons. IT WAS OUR FAULT HE GOT THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE

Also it notes in the report the weapons that were found were "degraded"

degraded-Having been reduced in quality or value
This sounds to me like the weapons werent necesarilly funtional ne more.

Screaming? Please Show me where, I have not seen any?

[Wreck0]

Re: BF2: A Game For Terrorist Training?

High-level politics full of money-grubbing bull****ters who will dig up anything without understanding it just to show they're being "useful"? Shocking.

Fact: A congressman was quoted on camera as saying congressmen in general don't have time to read the full bills they're voting for or against. Not enough time. Gotta keep the reelection campaign and schmoozing going, after all. (He didn't say that last part.)

Battlefield 2 + Special Forces cost about $80. A computer that runs it would cost about $1000. You'd think they could've spent some of the several million they had on actually playing the game they were giving a national intelligence report on, to representatives of the people of the US.

[imported_Iridium]

Re: BF2: A Game For Terrorist Training?

Ohlem: So you're telling us that the U.S. invaded Iraq, resulting in the loss of thousands of U.S. soldiers and untold tens of thousands of Iraqis, many of them civilians, for 500 "warheads for chemical weapons"?

And all the BS about nuclear enrichment programs is a smokescreen. Why the hell did we go after Iraq, which might have been capable of producing some form of nuclear warhead in the future, rather than, oh, i don't know, North Korea, which HAD nuclear weapons and is on the fast track to getting the sort that can hit the U.S.?

Yes, Iraq wasn't playing very nice with the UN in the lead up to the invasion. But that can't possibly be the reason for the invasion, because the administartion subsequently ignored everything the UN had to say, and built a coalition, if you can call it that, without the UN.

They used the UN, and its troubles with Iraq, along with the quite timely post-9/11 fervor in the U.S., to justify an imperialist move designed to get us bases in the middle east. Go read the PNAC reports if you don't beleive it: http://www.newamericancentury.org/Re...asDefenses.pdf

[jarm8181]

Re: BF2: A Game For Terrorist Training?

Ohlem: So you're telling us that the U.S. invaded Iraq, resulting in the loss of thousands of U.S. soldiers and untold tens of thousands of Iraqis, many of them civilians, for 500 "warheads for chemical weapons"?

And all the BS about nuclear enrichment programs is a smokescreen. Why the hell did we go after Iraq, which might have been capable of producing some form of nuclear warhead in the future, rather than, oh, i don't know, North Korea, which HAD nuclear weapons and is on the fast track to getting the sort that can hit the U.S.?

Yes, Iraq wasn't playing very nice with the UN in the lead up to the invasion. But that can't possibly be the reason for the invasion, because the administartion subsequently ignored everything the UN had to say, and built a coalition, if you can call it that, without the UN.

They used the UN, and its troubles with Iraq, along with the quite timely post-9/11 fervor in the U.S., to justify an imperialist move designed to get us bases in the middle east. Go read the PNAC reports if you don't beleive it: http://www.newamericancentury.org/Re...asDefenses.pdf

The problem Iridium is I'm not convinced WMD was the real motive behind the Bush administration's desire to go to war with Iraq. I think it was based on neo-conservative theory of geo-politics and neo-conservative theory of hegemony, which to most Americans is too complicated to grasp. I think they really thought, by waging the war on terrorism, we could topple Saddam's government, establish a democracy, and thus result in a domino effect, of more and more middle eastern governments falling in favor of a democratic one to replace it. The thought behind that is that a democratic middle east, would not produce as near the amount of terrorists as the middle east produces now under theocracies and dictatorships.

Now the reason the Bush Administration decided to use the WMD route for justifying the war, was because they thought it was much more likely they could convince the public it was a good idea to go to war with Iraq based on a WMD arguement, even though that's not the reason they wanted to go, instead of trying to convey a difficult to grasp theory the neo-conservative think tanks were coming up with.

But the problem Iridium is if you start a lie, you can't continue it forever. Eventually a lie catches up with you. Bush comprimised principles, by not being honest with the American people. If he tried to give the argument from this theory of geo-politics, such as we have to establish democracies in the middle east, because it will mean less terrorists attacking us and more safety for Americans, and therefore it is in our self-defense, maybe he would've gotten more credit and not be accused of a liar. IMHO, I think Bush thought lying to the American people was the moral thing to do, because I think he thought we didn't know any better, and it was for our best interests for him to lie.

Such is the folly of most American presidents in our history. They don't give the American people enough credit. Lying never works, it only results in a disgruntled public, and a web of lies that cannot be reasonably sustained for very long.

IMHO, I think the neo-conservative view of geo-politics is not a correct one. I don't think we can reasonably think we can transform the Middle East into a bunch of flourishing democratic societies. The culture of the Middle East has to change first, the current culture of the Middle East does not respect the ideals of individual rights and of liberty. I think that's why the neo-conservative theories just won't work in reality. Going to war with Afghanistan made sense, the culture of the Middle East understands revenge. We went there to exact revenge and we were right to do so.

[F-1]

Re: BF2: A Game For Terrorist Training?

Screaming? Please Show me where, I have not seen any?

You are talking about pre-1991 heads that are not usable anymore. Maybe they had more rust than the chemicals themselves.

Listen: W did not go to the war because he made the people believe that Iraq had 500 (rusty) chemical weapons heads. The issue seemed to be much bigger than that and we all (except you and Foxnews) know now that he was very wrong.