The Claymore Workshop: New Ideas Required

[zipp0r]

Re: The Claymore Workshop: New Ideas Required

How about:

Only engineers can can crawl towards a claymore and disarm it from any angle.
Claymores still linger for 2 deaths like C4 and AT mines. Engineer gets one point for disarming mine or gets one mine added to his kit (unless he has a full set still).

there are 3 angles to disarm a claymore from, why add a fourth one which defeats the claymores purpose ?
the majority of the time a claymore will be placed where at least 2 angles are available for it to be defused.
the fact that a person wants to be able to defuse it from its detonation angle says that they just want to nerf it cos the majority of the time a clay kills them.

ps claymores "linger" for ~15-30seconds after death, disapearing shortly after the kit bag disapears.

I think if any adjustment should be made it is that engineers can approach a claymore while prone from any direction and disarm it. It should take twice as long as a mine, because in real life an AT mine* can just be picked up and moved whereas to disarm a claymore with a trip wire or a motion detection (google IED in Iraq) would take some care and time.

*(anti-tank mines which are pressure sensitive or triggered by magnetic fields.)

Hell I say even give them a point, it might get them out of the tanks!

IRL THIS IRL THAT, as i said earlier:

if this game was anything like real life, my sniper rifle would kill everyone that i saw with 1 bullet, id have no bullet drop unless i was aiming over 1000m, you would never find where i was sniping from e.t.c

[shiremct]

Re: The Claymore Workshop: New Ideas Required

The take time to set up idea is nice but doesnt fit with the game. c4 and AT mines are just chucked on the ground, making claymores opperate differently doesnt make a lot of sense to me.

The idea of a trip-wire that extends and is visible is excellent! I love it and I think it would be a really nice addition to the game... BUT it will never happen. That would be a big addition and like the above proposition, would be very different from other explosives.

Crawling past is feasible... at least they are not insurmountable then, but its just not a good fix. Forcing a player to crawl past it but still unable to disable it is not good enough. Its nice that an engy can wrench it but other classes should be able to disable it in some way since it is a fire and forget weapon (unlike c4).



Claymores are much less a problem now that a sniper can only have 2 active at a time, but its still frustrating to come upon them as there is no way to disable them. An engy getting behind is not a viable solution to disarming as most well placed claymores are such that an engy would never get behind, especially with the whacked out detection model.

IMO, there are two possibilities:

Allow claymores to be destroyed by explosives (arty, c4, direct nade explosion, AT rocket, bomb, etc) but NOT by splash damage. The hit point model might work for this, but it depends on the damage models of the different explosives and how they are handled in game. This would be a simple way to make claymores remain effective for setting traps and killing unsupecting enemies yet still able to be disabled by an observant player. The right damage threshold would be a matter of testing, but all players will never be entirely happy. The biggest problem for this solution is the large percentage of the blast radius for explosives that does high damage. Nearly the entire blast radius for a plane's bombs are strong enough to kill, so either you get no damage or get dead. If a claymore had the life of a soldier, for example, this would be a less than perfect solution as the blast radius for hand grenades, artillery shells, and jet bombs are very large. I do not know how this is handled in the game, so I can not say for sure how well this would work out, but it would be at least much better than current. Remember that, while claymores were easily destroyed pre 1.2, they also produced tk's. Even if DICE stepped it back to where any explosion (including splash damage) detonated the claymore, they would still be more useful than before. If they can implement the hitpoints model for claymores, I think that would be the simplest and most effective method for restoring balance.

Another option is a little more radical, but equally simple in its implementation. Reduce the damage of a placed claymore so it no longer insta-gibs a player. Everyone hates being killed by insta-gib weapons, especially when they take little aiming or trouble (the old GLs, C4 chuckers, jet bombs, etc... ). A claymore is worse than all of the above because you just drop it and get a kill. Its too easy for the trouble it causes the other players. I know this idea is radical, but imagine for a moment if you will, a sniper runs about and chuckes his claymores like a little bastard and gets shot up. Now there are two claymores out in the field. Currently, you're f'-ed, but if the damage was reduced to say, 2/3 of normal or so, you could safely detonate a claymore without being insta-gibbed. Maybe something like 2/3 damage for unarmored and 1/2 damage (of total life) to armored soldiers. Thats enough for the kill assist. Now imagine a sniper setting a trap. He can set one to wound or set both to kill his target, depending on his goal. If he was covering his ass, he could set both to kill or one to wound and alert himself. A sniper can always get resupplied. Even better if the center of the blast up close did full damage but less to the sides. Now the sniper can set one claymore and know it will kill the guy who climbs up the ladder, but a dumbass chucking them isnt garunteed a kill anymore, however, he can continue to do so and get kills and kill assists, just not so easily.

For an unknown reason, I like the second option, although I acknowledge the first is the safer option (less arcady maybe...). Neither option should be hard to implement and both retain the claymores usefulness to the sniper and remove the idiocy of the current setup.

hmmm
I have an unsettling feeling that I am going to be flamed for this...

[zipp0r]

Re: The Claymore Workshop: New Ideas Required

nah not flamed, you at least put some effort into it, although (like many others) you forgot to think about what happens when a sniper is using a destructable claymore to cover a ladder. 1 grenade near it blows it up and wrecks his protection.

[TheEndofWar]

Re: The Claymore Workshop: New Ideas Required

My IRL suggestions were to keep in the theme of BF2. In realife it would take a lot of time to set up a claymore IRL everything would add up to make this a sucky game. I am just saying IF everyone thinks its problem, then make a change people will like, isn't that what this thread is about? So I say your point is good, 3 angle to approach a claymore is fine, but what is the incentive? Any engineer who would so selflessly risk his life disarming a claymore should get something, like beig able to approach it from the front, or a point for disarming or add it to his inventory. If you got apoint, I would be out there cleaning up all these nasty surprises. This also makes it bait snipers can use to shoot engineers with. hmmmm.

[shiremct]

Re: The Claymore Workshop: New Ideas Required

No, I did not forget about putting a claymore to cover a ladder, however, i believe that the grenade going off behind you should be warning enough. I dont agree with the concept that a sniper should be able to effectively block a ladder with no possibility of access.

Anyway, its pretty hard to land a grenade RIGHT there beside the claymore. The claymore could hopefully survive the damage done by the outside radius of one nade, but not two and not the inside radius of one. Uhh... that'll jumble your tongue.

[variablek]

Re: The Claymore Workshop: New Ideas Required

A problem I can see with this is the fact that, in this game, the general consensus is that the claymores are "meant" to be used to protect a sniper's back while he's scoping in on something or whatever. A clacker would leave a sniper very vulnerable. They are already next to useless at close range so I think they still need the "automatic" claymores. Lastly, not that real life has any real bearing on all this but, claymores can be fitted with infrared, acoustic, or vibration sensors, among many others.

I do agree with engies having the ability to crawl up to them to disarm them as well as hit points. Very good ideas there.

cool i didnt know they could have sensors! :)

I want one!

[ViolenT]

Re: The Claymore Workshop: New Ideas Required

In warfare claymore are generaly trip wire or command line detonated. Trip wire would be difficult to get working in BF2 to keep the gameplay uneffected.

Most people dont like snipers running off away from a claymore to get a kill much later when they are far away engaged in combat elsewhere. What could be done here is to allow a radius that claymores are effective away from the sniper. Out of this radius the claymores would not detonate. This would simulate the remote detonation used. Snipers would need to be stay close by for claymores to detonate.

A sniper could carry a remote detonator. This could be rendered ineffective and the claymores detonated in the normal fashion. So what is the purpose of the detonator? The claymores will only detonate if the detonator is in the hand of the sniper. This would simulate the sniper reaching for the command detonator if he knows that he is about to approached.

[zipp0r]

Re: The Claymore Workshop: New Ideas Required

No, I did not forget about putting a claymore to cover a ladder, however, i believe that the grenade going off behind you should be warning enough. I dont agree with the concept that a sniper should be able to effectively block a ladder with no possibility of access.

Anyway, its pretty hard to land a grenade RIGHT there beside the claymore. The claymore could hopefully survive the damage done by the outside radius of one nade, but not two and not the inside radius of one. Uhh... that'll jumble your tongue.

ahh there we go... sniper hater

[shiremct]

Re: The Claymore Workshop: New Ideas Required

Actually, you are correct, I am an admitted sniper hater... this is true, but seriously... is it neccesary to have a full-proof protection device? I think not. I agree claymores should be effective as protection or at least a means or warning, but fullproof fire and forget protection is over the top, dont you think? Lets be honest now.

[HoshNasi]

Re: The Claymore Workshop: New Ideas Required

everytime a set forth to make a comment on this topic I start playing balencing devils advocate. Is it far that the Claymore not be triggered by friendlies? Yeah I think thats fine. However the splash dmg from a friendly next to an enemy that sets it off is also justified.

However I keep getting stuck on if explosives should trigger them. In my mind they should. I mean its a damn explosive. I figure IRL the cord would break or the device would be destroyed/detonated. I can't really think of a reason that it not go off. Arent claymores made of plastic IRL and full of big BBs? Grenades would blow them to bits!! Plus explosives are loud and should get the snipers attention.

[IntensivCareBear]

Re: The Claymore Workshop: New Ideas Required

ok, we really need to clarify stuff.

its quite obvious there are quite a few snipers here who enjoy getting kills they could never get before, on account of having no skill, with claymores. these people are interfering with the process of finding a solution, even saying that no change is best.

why should claymores have a deployment time? well, because they completely ruin urban maps, and C4 and mines dont, simply. and why would it take 5 seconds to disarm a claymore that was thrown down in a split second?

2 of the following solutions are required. 1 is insufficient, and will not stop claymores from ruining urban maps. its not just turning every corner and running into a claymore, its that EVERYONE in karkand will just be a bunny hopping claymore dispenser for free kills.

1. 5 second deployment time for claymores. Some people have suggested prone engineers removing them with wrench.... which would probably take as long as mines, 4 or more seconds. this is obviously not feasible in urban maps. nobody would play engineer anyway, as youd get killed crawling around on the ground, and dont even get any bonus for removing a claymore.

2. teammates detonate claymores, but TAKE NO DAMAGE FROM FRIENDLY claymores. this way the sniper has no negative points, and the teammate is still fine. except the sniper knows that simply dropping 2 claymores by a friendly flag for 2 free kills is not going to work anymore.

3. all guns and explosives detonate claymores. sorry, but invincible, instantly deployed explosives that are often impossible to avoid, with 2 to a bunny hopping sniper, is not going to work without some counters.

some snipers have been whining in this thread about how its "not realistic" and that if their claymore whore ability is taken away they want the long whined about "one shot sniper kill."

well in BF2, things are realistic to the advantage and detriment of stuff in the game, not just to the advantage, as they are with claymores.

for example, a vehicle might be unrealistic in a way that advantages it, such as an attack helicopter withstanding a SRAW, being able to bounce off buildings, repairing super quickly, etc

but the helicopters are also not as effective as in reality, since they cannot lock on, require more than one missile to kill, gun is slightly less effective than in real life, etc.

however, the claymore is unrealistic only in ways that benefit it. it deploys super fast, is invincible, has 2 for each sniper, lingers after you die, requires no detonation.... never mind the fact that many urban areas are just perfect for claymore use.

people say get behind them. well you know the first flag at karkand? 2 claymores and its impossible to enter without dying. you know the hallway leading through to hotel point at karkand? what if enemy vehicles are out on the roads, and a claymore in the hallway? get around that.

well, those people who think so.... why dont YOU go prone in karkand and stay stationary over a claymore for 5 seconds when the sniper lays them in a split second and bunny hops out of there safe?

people are being over protective of claymores in this thread. urban maps are NOT supposed to be entirely about laying claymores and diffusing claymores safely, thats complete bs.

claymores need to be reduced to the effectiveness of mines, in that they stop people bunny hopping around corners and the like, but are not a scourge on every urban map.

really, the whole engineer disarming idea is stupid. the sniper could knife the engineer while you sit there cranking on the wrench all day, never minding that there are probably a dozen or more claymores added every time all the snipers are killed and respawn. also, the claymore explosion radius has proven to be totally unpredictable, exploding whenever the hell it feels like, not following any of its apparent set offs.... ive been killed when im standing behind and to the right of these things.

[pkm masta]

Re: The Claymore Workshop: New Ideas Required

I think that the claymores are well balanced. They are easy to avoid if one is paying careful attention. Avoiding them is quite easy. One can run around them or run by them on the correct side. If you don't know how to avoid claymores you should check out the thread on how to avoid a claymore

[shiremct]

Re: The Claymore Workshop: New Ideas Required

I think that the claymores are well balanced. They are easy to avoid if one is paying careful attention. Avoiding them is quite easy. One can run around them or run by them on the correct side. If you don't know how to avoid claymores you should check out the thread on how to avoid a claymore

How to avoid claymores:
*NEVER go around ANY corner at a flag
*Treat all bushes as giant man-eating mutations and stay far far away
*Don't do alleys
*Never spawn at a freshly capped flag
*If a sniper runs at you with claymore in hand, push control and click "suicide"

[BlackOpsSgt]

Re: The Claymore Workshop: New Ideas Required

Make Claymores retreivable (this may have already been said)
by Snipers only

Like engineers and AT mines

or Destroable by Sniper Rifle only

PS:Shiremct those are good suggestions and ones everyone else should heed (listen to) but more times than not if a person is already in front of a claymore when you throw it, it does not work, Beleive me i have tryed many times
Person come around a corner just as im setting up and kill me while im prone very frustrating

[PBJTime]

Re: The Claymore Workshop: New Ideas Required

Carebear, I agree that claymores could possibly use some tweaking but to nerf an already VERY limited kit is probably not the right idea. Although I would agree with the 5 second deployment time, I don't think the claymores should be easily defused. They are the only other "toy" a sniper has. Every other class has a useful second "toy." Why is it fair for a medic to be able to theoretically stay alive the whole round with a medic pack in hand, throw out automatic healing packs, or revive unlimited people yet a sniper can't have TWO claymores that are effective? A medic pack and ammo bag require no skill to use but are essentially automatic points if you have half a brain and can throw them in a spot heavily populated by your team, yet no one cries to nerf the medic packs. Why shouldn't one be able to throw two claymores in areas populated heavily by the enemy to get points? If they were easy to defuse, then they would serve no purpose other than to kill the occasional new guy to the game. Then, you're left with a sniper rifle...and that's it to separate you from any other class. Many can snipe with a PKM so it would be smarter to use support rendering the sniper kit almost useless.

Like I said, I would agree to the delay in claymore deployment and even for the claymores to disappear after the sniper died but if you nerf them, then anyone using a sniper kit will be a burden to the team they are on because there would be plenty other more useful kits.