Gun Collections

[Ronin581]

Re: Gun Collections

When chickenhawk was talking about 'handling' guns and using them, he may not have just been talking about safeties etc on guns, but rather the psychological effects like buck fever..?

what is buck fever?

[Kayback]

Re: Gun Collections

Reading Kaybacks post makes me even more worried, shouldnt he have some kind of psycological screening before being an ATC? But he's also a police officer at the same time and he see's BF2 as a way of shooting "substitute" Humans. Your one screwed up person and you shouldnt be allowed to own weapons or be responsible for other people lives....just a judgment call and I'm making it.

Yeah, because I couldn't possibly pass both the ATC required screenings and the police ones.

You are taking what I said totally out of context. As I said, you must subscribe to amature reverse psychology hour.

When you play BF2 you are running around a simulated battle ground shooting avatars of real people. There is no denying the violent content of the game. It is just a game, but one where you DO engage in violent actions. You play it, and you claim people who shoot pistols at paper targets are all whackjobs.

Go ahead. Make the judgement call. It is water off my back. I'll never meet you and you'll never meet me. However if you ever are in South Africa, drop me a line and we can hook up and I'll take you to my range. I'll also take you to where I work and you can see how responsible I am, with other's lives.

Oh and on the maturity thing? I think I have more knowledge of gun safety, arcs of fire, bullet penetration and using weapons under extreme circumstances than many people. .....The only gun owners that have proper training and respect for the wepons are those from a military or police background. Not many civilians are able to get proper training from courses other than those run by like minded mongoloids that need a semi-auto for home security.

Actually if I had my way I'd take a 12 guage pump action for home security. The latest laws in South Africa only permit one firearm for self defence. Which I've decided on a CCW.

However the laws in South Africa DO require gunowners to now sit psychological tests as well as written theory and practical tests to be declared "competant" to own a firearm.

So not only does the goverment think I'm fit to controll masses of people in aeroplanes, i'm fit to enforce the law and protect the peace, but I'm also fit enough to own and carry a firearm.

They also think I'm fit enough to drive a car and fly an aeroplane.

I'm very glad you do have more knowledge than other people and I totally respect that. I do not respect your complete lack of asckowledgement that others might be equally well versed or equally well trained.

I'll freely admit that there are some people who don't take th right sort of line abotu firearms or their uses. There are also plenty of people I'd like to see not own them. However there are also many many comptetant, safe people out there who can and do own firearms.

As for propper training, in decent countries where the goverment allow their citizens to protect themselves, you can get all the training you want. In the USA there are thinks like Black Water Lodge, which teach propper handgun, rifle and shotgun use. There are some here in SA as well, but they are mainly civilian versions of the police courses.


Any responsible gunowner will learn how to use their weapon responsibly. As I said, in SA you have to PROVE you can do this before they give you a lisence.

If it's for safety or protection then cool if you have proper training. I wouldnt class plinking at paper targets is proper training.

Neither would I. Unless you are a target shooter, then plinking at paper targets is EXACTLY the training you DO require. I also shoot sport shooting like IDPA and IPSC. Neither of these have any bearign on real world shooting, even though they both profess to be combat shooting.

IPSC is the worst of the two, is has absolutely zero consideration for tactical cover or movement. It is simply run into the room and dump bullets. But it is fun.

IDPA is slightly more realistic, but the rules they apply make it less than real. There are also too many "running" gunfights and shooting around hostage stages for it to be even remotely real. Again it is fun.

3 gun matches are pretty much more of the same, however they are with shotguns and rifles as well as sidearms.

You don't like guns, or civilians who own guns. That is your right. However I've seen some scary cops who don't know the first thing abotu firearm saftey or the use of deadly force.

I honestly don't mind if you don't think I'm either responsible enough to be an ATC or to own firearms, but an entire goverment disagrees with you twice, the company I work for disagrees with you, the 500 pilots I speak to every day disagree with you, the people at the shooting range disagree with you, and I'm afraid to say, I disagree with you.

KBK

[I Hate TKpunishers]

Re: Gun Collections

from top to bottom:


mossberg 12 ga pump
professional ordinance .223
colt AR-15
H&K USC .45 acp
.22 that isn't mine (I have a ruger 10/22 that looks just like that tho)
2 x H&K USP compact .40
S&W 9mm
Taurus 9mm (beretta knock off.. not pictured)
side by side double barrel 16 ga. (not pictured)

[l=lCoBrAl=l]

Re: Gun Collections

Well I personally own only a couple rifles. My dad on the other hand, has been in the business for quite a while. We don't have to many guns any more but we have had alot. In fact, in the early 80's, my dad had private museum of guns in southern utah. Just check out his website www.aa-ok.com You can go to the picture gallery.

oh and btw. You guys arguing about who being in the military and knowing more about weapons and what not. Just stop, really. You're embarassing yourselves. You've all proven who knows what about guns, but it's worthless arguing about it.

[Kayback]

Re: Gun Collections

what is buck fever?

Not being a hunter I can't really explain what he means by it, but what I understand is a form of target fixation or mental lockup?

Getting into a state where, mentally, it isn't good for you to have a gun in your hands.

Dep Pres Cheney anyone? (can't say his first name, its censored)

But l=lCoBrAl=l is correct. While the military do receive pretty good training with their weapons, the cops definately dont.

In most countries where cops are allowed to carry firearms, they only receive basic firearms training. A cops firearm is only one tool at their disposal, and one they are more or less expected NOT to use.

You get training in everything from voice and body language controll, basic grapling, batton, tazers and pepper spray. If you draw your firearm and fire it, you've got to have a damn good reason. Your main aim as a cop is the peaceful preservation of the law.

The only cops who get extensive training in firearms are tactical teams. Like American SWAT teams and the British C019. That is because they are not normal cops and their primary tools are their rifles and sidearms. They are the ones called in when the on the beat cops can't handle the situation.

Other than that, firearm training in police forces is rudimentry at best. When I became a cop, I aced the firearms training first time around, simply because I knew how to shoot before.

I was able to score highly with the 12 guage pump, and I'd never even held one before. Since I've volunteered for further training in both "special weapons and tactics". Nothing quite as high and mighty as a SWAT person, but I'm qualified to carry the LM5 and LM6 5.56mm assault rifle on patrol, as well as the 12 guage pump. I'm also qualified as "lead" in a house entry

However the run of the mill cops? They have bi anual quals of which the pass is something like 60% at 7m. Any idiot can shoot that.


Remember, to most cops guns are just tools that they get issued.

KBK

[ThoughtForm]

Re: Gun Collections

It's half mental, half physiological..

In short it is the adrenaline rush you get when you are aiming at a real living target which you do not experience with paper targets during practice.

The adrenaline rush and 'excitement' from the prospect of taking a life makes your hands/body shake to the point where you can not and should not use a firearm / weapon.

In training against paper targets, you could hit the bullseye 10 times in a row, but in a buck fever situation you would be lucky to even hit the boiler house area (important areas such as heart, lungs etc- main chest)

Seasoned hunters / armed police will be less susceptible to this because they have felt it before and have learnt to deal with it. This is mainly a issue for anyone who has not shot at a real living thing before, as you cannot gauge how your body will react in that situation without experiencing it. The mental preparation in training will only take you so far..

While it is named 'Buck Fever', it applies to shooting at any living thing

A quick google for Buck Fever will show up a plethora of stories from people having dropped arrows, missed targets completely and acting inexplicably while under the influence of Buck Fever

[Punisher1990_1]

Re: Gun Collections

In my avatar

Shame they're only airsoft.. but still :)

U lucky p**** lol. jus jkin nice collection

Love the AK

[Chickenhawk]

Re: Gun Collections

How people handle themselves under pressure is a good point. The instinct of when to draw your weapon and when to keep it "non-agressive" takes a lot of training and a fair bit of experience. One reason why British troops are highly effective in police actions (Bosnia, Iraq 1 + 2, Ruwanda etc) is because a lot of the training is based around Northern Ireland. In the mid 80's it was decided that both the Para's and the Royal Marines would no longer be needed in NI because they were seen as "shock troops" and thus too aggressive for a peacefull solution. However it was very strongly argued that NI was the best training that any sodier could be given and fortunatley we kept doing 6 month tours.

We trained so heavily in "Rules of Engagement" that you could remember in an instant what reaction fitted the situation. The more specialist branches of the Police get more thorough training although a recent killing by SWAT and also a mistake by S019 brings up questions.

I would hope that anyone that had a weapon drawn was in a calm state of mind and knew what was going on (situational awareness) but unfortunatley doubt this is usualy the case. Do what you have to do, do it well, cause you can sh*t yourself and cry about it later.

[Ronin581]

Re: Gun Collections

At some point in a life or death situation I am sure most people would instinctively be able to shoot a criminal. Just go to NRA's website they have plenty of stories about people shooting home invaders etc, and I am sure most of them had no prior killing expierience. Some may freeze but most I am sure would not

[troybob]

Re: Gun Collections

some may say there is no pressure if you have a gun

[Kayback]

Re: Gun Collections

How people handle themselves under pressure is a good point.... Do what you have to do, do it well, cause you can sh*t yourself and cry about it later.

Definately. As you train so shall you fight.

This is one reason force on force training is so important. It's especially useful to use things like Simunition that actually allow you to use real firearms on living targets.

The MILES gear that the army uses is ok as well.

To know how your body reacts under stress is one of the most important things a person could know.

Ronin and Troybob, fight flight or freeze. That is what happens to every person on the planet. They either try run away, they try fight back, or they simply freeze up.

Training, especially high stress training, allows one to function when the body is gearing up for Fight Flight or Freeze.

One of the furst things to go is fine motor skills. When the body dumps adrenaline into the system it is gearig up to keep the body functioning even while it is wounded. Your arms get difficult to move, let alone draw and aim a firearm. Your fingers become like jelly, making holding a firearm and manipulating the controlls difficult.

You lose sensation in your limbs as the blod flow is restricted. You body is saving it for your "core", so it won't get lost in a limb wound.

Your eyesight contracts down to a tunnel, which exaperates target fixation.

Your bowels and bladder want to give away to dump excess weight.

And you brain simply stops working.

It takes some serious training and willpower to overcome these effect and to be able to operate even remotely in the right way.

This is where training come into play. Under stress you will perform muscle menory actions. This is why people, civilians, cops and military practice their firearm handling skills. You practice reloading, clearing stoppages, and indexing the weapon until it becomes first nature. When the brain shuts down you want it to happen naturally.

The more you train the better you will be at whatever it is you are doing. Throw in high stress training and you should be able to perform the required actions automatically. This leaves you what little cognitive power you have left to think through the situation at hand without havting to concentrate on your movements.

KBK

KBK

[Ronin581]

Re: Gun Collections

I am sure everything you are saying is true. I saw a video one time on one of those "worlds craziest police videos" shows that showed a shootout between a cop and a bad guy. Odd part was they were no more then 15 feet away from each other and fired an entire clip a piece and niether of them hit anything. All the symptoms you describe above apply to both people in a situation, the attacker and the defender. The armed attack would like to walk up to you, demand your wallet and get away will no confrontation. However if you were to answer his request with drawing your pistol then he too is put in the Fight, Flee or Freeze predicament. I suppose no one will know their reaction unless it actually happens to them. I agree training helps this but there are still soldiers that freeze in combat I am sure. I am not entirely sure what training gets you prepared for actual combat, as nothing I am aware of has the level of realism needed to simulate something deadly such as bullets whizzing at your head. Does firing lasers from a miles system really help? You still know that there is no danger coming to you. I have never been in the military so please explain to me how that is better than paper target shooting. It was my understanding that the miles system was designed to work on tactical situations, and procedures, not to get you prepared for how you will react when live rounds are fired at you in combat.

[Kayback]

Re: Gun Collections

I've never used the Miles system either, I've only seen it demostrated, which is why I ranked the Simunitions as a better training tool. I have used those.

Miles gear helps you get used to firing your gun in the midst of a larger gunfight. It teaches you how to move and think with guns going off all around you, yours included. It alsto teaches you not to get hit.

While this might sound kind of obvious, the first time you get plugged with a Simunition makes you realise how vulnerable you are. I assume this is the same with Miles gear.

While not eactly the same was having your life blown away by a 5.56mm, the ribbing you are going to take from your squad mates and the chewing your your CO will give you will probably make you try harder next time.

While I don't think anything can replace true battelfield experience, it is a different, more dynamic form of training than the 300yard rifle range. It is also higher stress and closer to a real life combat situation.

Working backwards, your suggestion that the perp might suffer from fight flight or freeze, those are basically startle reactions. When the mugger suprises you initially, those are what you do.

The mugger has already selected a course of action, and is acting on it. In a way he is already in "fight" mode. There is a chance that defending yourself can kick in their flight or freeze, but it's a pretty good bet they will fight.

Now I'm not talking about a protracted gunfight here, those rules change. Generally setting off a gunshot kicks through most people's mindset and causes them to re adjust.

However if the mugger already has you at knife or gunpoint, you are screwed. The chance of "Beating the drop" or getting the advantage over your attacker in that case is minimal at best. It's been widely proven that in the time it takes you to draw your firearm a person inside of 7 yards, with a kife, can attack and kill your before you get your shot off.

Remember the attacker is instigating these events, he has the advantages. Almost all of them.

The basic idea of self defence is to not LET the attacker or mugger get into this position of power.

BecauseI have much respect for people who are more knowledgable than I am, I will steal Jeff Coopers colour guide here.

According to Mr Cooper, there are certain mental awareness stages that can be assigned a colour code.

Condition white is situationally unaware. "Off in your own world". You know, when you are minding your own business and not thinking about anything in particular. This is when people can "suprise" you by apearing out of nowhere. You don't see people or what what they are doing. This is peoples normal mental state. Warm and fuzzy.

Condition Yellow is heightened mental process. You are watching who's around you, you are watching what they are doing. People should not be able to sneak up on you in this condition. You are aware of your surroundings and what people are doing. This is when you'd begin to pick up people who could be a threat or just don't appear "normal".

Condition Orange is hightened mental awareness, with a specific point of interest. You've identified someone or something that is very wrong, and doesn't fit in with the normal way of life.

Guy wearing a heavy jacket in summer. Been into a couple of shops, same guy is still following you, whatever. His actions have drawn your attention and you look at him as a possible threat.

Generally you can dismiss him as a threat after a couple of seconds consideration and watching, but sometimes you can't.

When that "sometimes" happens, you kick up to Condition Red.

This is where you are gearing up for Fight of Flight. Preferably your training should exclude "freeze" as that is not a good survival skill against humans.

If the situation allows it, bug out. Run away. It's better to run away then everyone gets out of the situation alive.

However sometimes you can't. You are cornered, you physically can't run, your baby is still in the car in it's seat.... whatever. Then you need to fight.

If you are in "condition white" it takes between 5 and 10 seconds to "get up to speed". This is what most criminals, muggers and rapists use to their advantage to controll their victims.

If you are aware of these processess and are trained, or even just practice it you can generally avoid the situations before they happen. Either you can see it developing, and evade them, or they notice you aren't a sheep with it's head full of flufy wool and they go find easier victims.

[Chickenhawk]

Re: Gun Collections

When I was in we were using SAWES (no longer in use) Small Arms Weapon Effects Simulator, like MILES basicly. It is very good for section - troop - company attacks etc, large scale stuff, certainley teaches you the joys of using cover in a battle.

However I reckon your right about Simunition, it is very good but I think it is only effective in CQB, house entering etc. Another good training aid is Paintball, cheap but handy for training movement etc.....and a damn good laugh when the training is over.

The only thing I found with Simunition is that the early rounds didnt always splat on contact. One of our lads got shot on the C*ck and he was in a right state for 2-3 days, he said that his girlfriend would have left him if she had seen it in that state.

Hope the rounds break aopart no like they are meant to.

[Kayback]

Re: Gun Collections

However I reckon your right about Simunition, it is very good but I think it is only effective in CQB, house entering etc. Another good training aid is Paintball, cheap but handy for training movement etc.....and a damn good laugh when the training is over.

Yeah, It is only shorter ranged training, but 'cos I've trained as a cop, most of our work is house clearing/CQB so it wasn't a problem.

Hell the police range I got my basic training at only had a 50m rifle range. Excuse me? I can hit a soda can with my pistol at 50m.

It was quite an eye opener at the advanced training when they expected me to hit targets at 300m with the same rifle. Initially I was like; "What target?!"

I wish there was Miles/paintball/simunition that allowed shooting out to 200m+.

But as a patrolman I shouldn't be taking those sort of shots anyway.

KBK