Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

[whoosh]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

I still disagree with the autokill suggestion of the aa. Yes they can hit you, but if you are at least 75% health they don't kill you. I have been hit twice by aa with full health and didn't go down. As for evasive manuvers. There are some that work. I have had a full tone lock long enough for the aa guy to reload twice. I got hit ONCE. If you think you are just going to yank the stick once and be safe, wrong. That was pre patch. Now you have to do some real life "THINKING" and as far as what works? You are either a pilot or you aren't and the patch will seperate the pilots and ground pounders.

[TheGhost]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

A lot of people seem to be missing my main point. The current balance between planes and surface to air is good, at least when looking at the bottom line, i.e. sometimes the jet can win, sometimes the AA wins. This is fine, that's exactly how it should be. My only argument is that there are other roads that could have been taken that would have gotten us to the same place without resorting to "finger of God" missles that behave in a completely ridiculous manner. The biggest issue is the effect that these missles have had on air to air combat. That's an issue which doesn't affect ground pounders at all, and unless you have spent time flying you simply can't appreciate what a mockery has been made of jet vs jet combat.

[Paas]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

If we disregard the fact that realism has little or nothing to do with bf2 (such a discussion relevant to OFP or RO but not BF2) you really need to do some reading on performance of SA missiles. I have seen you making statements in several threads that I interpret as you thinking SAM's even the shoulder launched variety have above 50% percentages. If you have a source for thinking shoulder launched SA missiles will have even 25% hit ratio under combat conditions agains jets I would very much like to see it.

That's shoulder fired.

Granted, the Missiles in the game are Shoulder Fired missiles locked onto a platform, yet, I think what Dice/EA was trying to get across was actual "SAMs". Ala. Vietnam War.

Also. Those percentages aren't calculated on damage. They are calculate on either "Kill, or Direct Strike". A SAM can render most jets completely useless, yet not connect with it. Especially if the weapons systems on the Jet are damages, or the ordinace destroyed by a proxomity warhead.

...then again. I want you to show me records of when a Pilot was able to avoid a Radar Locked missile by simply banking with flaring; putting somthing between them, or ejecting. Seeing as all of the missiles in this game Appear to be Radar Guided.

{WP}Paas

[PoweredBySoy]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

Ok, I'm sorry, but I've seen this idea of "the game is about capping flags, pilots have nothing to do with capping flags" thrown around way to often and I find it personally offensive.

If you find it personally offensive, that's fine. And I'm glad you can so skillfully bomb a tank. But what I'm saying is that if you (as a pilot) are having trouble with AA on a particular map, why don't you change roles and help surpress that AA. Become a sniper. Grab a tank. Or, better yet, bail out and cap the flag where the AA lies. Writing a 2000 word essay on how the mechanics of AA vs planes is broken does little to make me think you're willing to adapt.

My problem with all the glorified pilots in this game are they they pigeonhole themselves into this role. They don't seem to contribute to what's happening on the battlefield if that means having to give up their plane. All that matters is what's happening in the air, and what they can do from the air.

I can't count how many times I've been on a map, where my team has pushed the other team all the way back to their main spawn point. Looking at my radar I see that my team has left like 3 rear flags completely unguarded. All it would take for the other team to regain some momentum would be for one of their pilots to eject and cap a flag. But does it never happen? Never. So the base raping continues on until they lose.

[Paas]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

A lot of people seem to be missing my main point. The current balance between planes and surface to air is good, at least when looking at the bottom line, i.e. sometimes the jet can win, sometimes the AA wins. This is fine, that's exactly how it should be. My only argument is that there are other roads that could have been taken that would have gotten us to the same place without resorting to "finger of God" missles that behave in a completely ridiculous manner. The biggest issue is the effect that these missles have had on air to air combat. That's an issue which doesn't affect ground pounders at all, and unless you have spent time flying you simply can't appreciate what a mockery has been made of jet vs jet combat.

Ok. I'm inclined to agree here. The Dogfighting in this game is' nilch. Any "Commando" with the ability to lock on the Radar can win. Yet, it's still a thinking man's game. You have to get low, get fast, and keep your mind set on when it's ok to flar and get your butt out of a hairy situation.

Also, when that tone gets solid, it's time to pop them. Yet, you should already be turning. A.A. missiles are avoidable, your S.A. just has to be exremely high.

...although, it does seem like EA has kicked the cannons in the nuts. I almost never use them anymore unless it's a show of respect to another pilot who has been attempting to use them on me. Other than that, I get you out of the sky as quickly as possible. Missiles are the way to go.

Furthermore. Modern air to air missiles are pretty effective in Medium and Short ranges. I would think that with flares the missiles are Heat Seekig, yet, they lock on like they are Radar...confusing

I don't know. It's all confusing to me really. Yet, it's much better than it was. Missiles can be avoided, it just takes a level of skill that's 5 or 10 notches above the past requirements. It also takes a respect for the ground and what the "Peons" down there can really do to you if you're not carefull.

Dogfighting though!? Pfffft.. so dead.

{WP}Paas

[TheGhost]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

I still disagree with the autokill suggestion of the aa. Yes they can hit you, but if you are at least 75% health they don't kill you. I have been hit twice by aa with full health and didn't go down. As for evasive manuvers. There are some that work. I have had a full tone lock long enough for the aa guy to reload twice. I got hit ONCE. If you think you are just going to yank the stick once and be safe, wrong. That was pre patch. Now you have to do some real life "THINKING" and as far as what works? You are either a pilot or you aren't and the patch will seperate the pilots and ground pounders.

I think you are confusing SAM's and air to air. I clearly said that the balance of jets and SAM's is good. I never said SAM's were auto kill. Without flares they are pretty much auto hit, but not necessarily auto kill. As you said it is possible to escape to repair. The auto kill is jet vs jet, I am 100% for getting behind a jet and killing them since the patch, this isn't right and it takes no skill.

I would love to know what sort of evasive maneuvers you think can be used against these missles, because until I see it done with some consistency I'm calling BS. I have literally seen these missles overshoot their target, spin around, and come straight back at them from the front and kill them. I'm not talking about making some big arcing turn and coming back around, I'm saying they went straight past, spun around on an axis through the center of the missle, and came back along the same flight path, literally flying back through their own contrail.

[PoweredBySoy]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

A lot of people seem to be missing my main point. The current balance between planes and surface to air is good, at least when looking at the bottom line, i.e. sometimes the jet can win, sometimes the AA wins. This is fine, that's exactly how it should be.....

Then part of my arguement may have inappropriately been focused towards you. It's an arguement I've been making with pilots in general all day.

I'm bored at work. =/

[DrunkPikachu]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

The problem with how the missiles act now is not wholely that they they cheated so the missiles could now hit a plane, but because the cheating mechanisms will allow it to change targets unreasonably and hit them consistently since the new target has little to no benefit of an initial warning.

All in all I love what mobile and stationary AA can do now (stationary being a bit weak HP wise though), but seeing your missiles hit a friendly chopper that was straight left from you instead of the guy flying slowly in front, and in a straight line, is insanely retarded.

[Paas]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

I would love to know what sort of evasive maneuvers you think can be used against these missles, because until I see it done with some consistency I'm calling BS. I have literally seen these missles overshoot their target, spin around, and come straight back at them from the front and kill them. I'm not talking about making some big arcing turn and coming back around, I'm saying they went straight past, spun around on an axis through the center of the missle, and came back along the same flight path, literally flying back through their own contrail.

...that's just hardcore. Damn funny too.

{WP}Paas

[CommanderD]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

Look the only people moaning about the AA are the crap whoring pilots of the helicopters and jets. Those pilots who are skilled enough not to just base rape the other sides uncapturable main base will adapt, I love the new AA's perfect for AA to combat instead of ground bombing.

[DrunkPikachu]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

...that's just hardcore. Damn funny too.

{WP}Paas

Even better is watching the two missiles you fired at a plane overshoot it, then start making a double helix for a second or two until it finally kills him.

[Paas]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

Even better is watching the two missiles you fired at a plane overshoot it, then start making a double helix for a second or two until it finally kills him.

So, what you're telling me is they give 120% to get the job done?

Go missiles? The true american worker?

{WP}Paas

[PoweredBySoy]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

I think it's just safe to say that Dice coded the AA missiles to be an automatic hit. Seeing the actual missile flying through the sky is just for animation. :p

During a lock-on, the only actual thing a pilot can do to avoid getting hit is a) launch flares, or b) get out of range.

Everyone might as well just drop the "evading missiles" arguement. Because if they're doing instant 180 degree turns, it's obviously not going to happen.

[whoosh]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

Ok. I'm inclined to agree here. The Dogfighting in this game is' nilch. Any "Commando" with the ability to lock on the Radar can win. Yet, it's still a thinking man's game. You have to get low, get fast, and keep your mind set on when it's ok to flar and get your butt out of a hairy situation.

Also, when that tone gets solid, it's time to pop them. Yet, you should already be turning. A.A. missiles are avoidable, your S.A. just has to be exremely high.

...although, it does seem like EA has kicked the cannons in the nuts. I almost never use them anymore unless it's a show of respect to another pilot who has been attempting to use them on me. Other than that, I get you out of the sky as quickly as possible. Missiles are the way to go.

Furthermore. Modern air to air missiles are pretty effective in Medium and Short ranges. I would think that with flares the missiles are Heat Seekig, yet, they lock on like they are Radar...confusing

I don't know. It's all confusing to me really. Yet, it's much better than it was. Missiles can be avoided, it just takes a level of skill that's 5 or 10 notches above the past requirements. It also takes a respect for the ground and what the "Peons" down there can really do to you if you're not carefull.

Dogfighting though!? Pfffft.. so dead.

{WP}Paas

dogfighting with noobs is even better than pre patch. They can 180 all they want and I'll still shoot them down. I'll say it again.

THIS PATCH WILL SEPERATE THE NOOBS WHO HAD NO BUSINESS IN AN AIRPLANE TO START WITH FROM THE PILOTS WHO HAVE LEARNED A SKILL.

By noobs I mean the guy that spends 60% of his time flying in the boundary areas. Bomber pilots trying to shoot down fighters.

Fighters wasting assests trying to stay away from the enemy fighters instead of seeking them out.

Half way through the game the guy has been sneaking around the map and has 1 kill.

All of these morons are done. And I really hope the other team is manning thier aa sites if the idiot tks me for and airplane.

This patch WILL seperate noobs from pilots.

[TheGhost]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

...then again. I want you to show me records of when a Pilot was able to avoid a Radar Locked missile by simply banking with flaring; putting somthing between them, or ejecting. Seeing as all of the missiles in this game Appear to be Radar Guided.

{WP}Paas

How do you figure the missles are radar guided when we are given flares, and not chaff to counter them? Flares are for heat seeker missles. Not that it matters, what happens in the real world has little to do with what should happen in this game. As a FPS, the game should first work towards achieving a balanced system, but one where skill still plays a part. Then you can consult the real world to try and at least make the game "look" somewhat real.

Here's how it should work:

Skilled SAM operator vs unskilled pilot = dead pilot 80% or more of the time.

Skilled pilot vs unskilled SAM operator = dead SAM operator 80% or more of the time

Skilled SAM operator vs equally skilled pilot = unpredictable outcome, sometimes the SAM dies, sometimes the pilot dies, sometimes they both die, sometimes its a draw (although one or both still probably takes some damage)

The same thing would apply to jet vs jet combat. All I'm asking for is a system where the outcome for both sides is directly tied to their skill level.