Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

[Paas]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

The current system in play promotes teamwork. Yet, it promotes it in and extremely harsh manner.

Fact of the matter is, if your team wants Air Support, your ground units need to secure SAM sites and Enemy Anti-Air vehicles. The Jets have to rely on their team to gain some grounds, and hold SAM sites with small squads, if they plan on staying in the AIR for extended periods of time.

As for the turning abbilites for the missiles, I belvie this comes down to a game limitations. The variables needed to perfectly implement a realistic
A.A. system would probably bog down any server. So, instead of opting that road, they pretty much made the missiles realistically accurate. Which is true to life; in a sense.

In true air combat, banking hard isn't going to help you avoid a missile if the enemy still has a lock on you. The missile isn't going to chase your exhaust (Unless it's heat seeking, even then it's going to lock onto the engines). A radar missile will lock onto your cockpit area, so even in a hard turn the missile would strike the center of your jet (In a sense)

Furthermore, the most effective missiles are proximity. They don't actually have to connect with you in order to deliver damage. They just have to come within a certain range, detonate, and cause considerable damage to your craft.

I like the current system. I actually would prefer that EA gimped Jets a big more (Fighters don't get bombs. Bombs don't get A.A. missiles) to add a deaper level of teamplay. Yet, I highely doubt that would happen. If the fuss' is so strong over a "Teamplay Based" tweak. People would freak such changes were made.

...nice post though. I respect your stand on the issue. Yet, I don't agree.

{WP}Paas

P.S. - Also, the engagement range of SAMs appears to be reduced. Also, if you put an object between you and the missile, it will miss. I have done it plent of times in Blackhawks and Cobras. It does work, yet, it takes a certain levle of alertness. Also, you only have the timeframe of your flares to make it happen.

Yet, really in truely, the SAM sites don't have much range. If you stay out of their domain until you're ready to attack, you're good to go.

[Kattspya]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

Oh belive me, I feel so sorry for the helo pilots under the current system I want to cry for them. I just don't have as much experience in the helos as I do in the jets and I feel a good helo pilot would do a much better job at discussing how the new AA relates to what their job on the battle field is.

I'll bite.

I haven't played for long enough to form a solid opinion. What I say is what I've figured out with under ten hours flight time in the new patch.

My first issue is the lack of the SAM operators performance reflecting on the hit percentage of the missiles. If you have a tone and the helo doesn't flare or is out of flares you have more or less an assured hit. If the hit percentage was somehow determined by the operators actions I would have no problem with the lethality of the SAM's.

The second issue is that the rockets sometimes ignores flares. If they are going to have almost 100% accurate AA without flares then they should have a near zero hit probability with flares.

The third issue is that the flares dissipate to quickly. If you don't have cover within five seconds (or so) range you are toast. That means you are dead if caught in the open above a certain height and can't localise the person targeting you before your flares dissipate.

The quick and simple sollution would be to make the flares cover you for a longer time or increasing the locking time of the SAM's, maybe a combination of both. This isn't hard to implement and shouldn't cause any substantial complains about renerfing of SAM's.

A harder sollution would be making the operators input influence the hit probability. Have a pretty low base accuracy for badly aimed shots maybe 20-25% or lower. Maybe it cold be the ammount of time you have the crosshair on target before firing or that determines the hit probability. Max the accuracy out at just below 100% or have it 100% it doesn't really matter.

I also have complants about the FAV's. They are invisible at long range but can still damage you. They bring you down in four seconds. I believe it takes about two seconds of continous cannon fire to bring down a jeep. That means you have two seconds to locate a possibly invisible jeep (if its far away) and two seconds to destroy it. There are up to ten FAV's and jeeps on the larger maps and at most two helos per team (unless one is stolen). And that's not counting tanks, APC's, AT soldiers, and mobile AA. The helo has enough threats without being turned to shreds in a few seconds if spotted by a competent guy in a jeep.

I could actually accept the current damage (some will claim it's realistic) if the helos get FLIR. If I don't get FLIR (which I won't) I would very much like jeeps to take more damage from the cannon or have the driver be more vulnerable to splash from the TV-guided.

[Bullet_Force]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

LOL at calling AA users Rambos. The only rambo here sunshine is the pilot. You dont see tanks charging through mines now do you? Why should jets be able to charge through their counter. AA is to be feared.

Jets are the rambos. They need to get some team work going and get one of their team mates to snipe the aa user or take it out with a tank if its mobile AA.

[DrunkPikachu]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

I was wondering, imagine if the mobile AA's heat seeking capability was toned down, not much, but down reasonably. BUT, it was also given a choice between using a hit or miss missile, OR firing off a manually controlled missile ala DC samsite.

Of course tons of people wouldn't like it, and I'm sure its too much work for the skilled programmers over at DICE, busy working on a bug-ridden BF3 I'm sure.

[whoosh]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

I actually think the changes are good.
Before the change being on a runway or carrier was a joke. If you weren't getting raped by the other team you were getting tked by some moron who couldn't fly anyway.

I have been flying since the patch and have found most of the automatic kills to be untrue. Get that??? Didn't happen. At least not to me.
I got shot at, I got hit, I got repaired and kept flying. Now for as long as I have been playing there has always been a horde of noobs that think they have the spacial skills to fly. They don't. Yes it was easy before even if you didn't have any skills you could still bomb the crap out of the armor. But that was the point of the patch- to make it harder for pilots to rape the ground units.

A absolutely wonderful side affect of that was; Unless you could fly before you better go practice on a empty server, because its not point and click anymore. You have to be able to "T H I N K" and plan the approach to the target.

Personally, I love the fact I can shoot down noob pilots in enemy aircraft and helos, some with just cannon fire. The apache is still not an auto kill if the pilots any good. And if his team is manning the AA I couldn't always stay around to finish him off.

If the degree of difficulty means teams need to work with commanders to have a plan of attack - - even better.

If they don't - - then just keep crying ladies cause I'm gonna bomb you and your aa sites anyway.

And if you are one of the thousands of noobs who "THINK" you can fly then I say - - - Get the fuxk out of my airplane LOL

Yes MY airplane. Airplanes are for P I L O T S, as in people who can fly. Not noobs who can find an airplane

[Paas]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

LOL at calling AA users Rambos. The only rambo here sunshine is the pilot. You dont see tanks charging through mines now do you? Why should jets be able to charge through their counter. AA is to be feared.

Jets are the rambos. They need to get some team work going and get one of their team mates to snipe the aa user or take it out with a tank if its mobile AA.

Not very well put. Yet, it's true.

Jets ultimate enemy is the A.A. The game represents this now. Yet, even then, the A.A. has a VERY short engagement range (SAMs at least). So, it's up to the pilot to either ask his team to secure all SAM sites, or he needs to take it upon himself to elminate them. Then make his bombing run and get the hell out of dodge.

You don't see "Most" reasonable Tank operators charging into confined spaces, or sitting in the open. They know their field of operation, and they know Helos/Jets/Anti-Tank have it out for them. They respect that. Us jet pilots simply need to respect the A.A.

...and as for the complaints of turning abbilities of the missiles. A Radar locked missile will catch you even if you're in an extreme turn. All the missiles in the game are Radar. I don't see the problem.

{WP}Paas

[Hu.Z_of_PLA]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

With respect, I suggest a class in reading comprehension. I fully admitted that pre patch AA was not used the way it should have been, and I agree that seeing it used as I suggest will almost never happen in a pick up game (in a clan setting or just with an organized group of friends on TS this tactic was not only used but used effectively). The fact that people refuse to cooperate and use it correctly in no way changes the fact that that IS how it was designed to be used.

I also said that the end result right now between ground based SAM's and jets is a prettly balanced system. However, it is very poorly implemented and relies on missles that cheat every known law of physics (and in fact I think they invented several new laws of physics for the sole purpose of violating them). It results in a very artifical single-check based system. When a SAM is fired there is one check in place, do you or do you not have flares. If you fail the flare check you are getting hit. It leaves almost no room for the skill of either the SAM operator or the pilot to play a role in the outcome. I want to see a system where both sides have the opportunity to display their skill.

The biggest issue right now is air to air combat, and unless you have been flying you just can't appreciate what a joke this has become.

In reality, Jet can have 9G of turning force, missiles can have 40G, need I say more?

Missile almost always win, without countermeasures.

[TheGhost]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

All of the pilots bitching seem to think that this game is their own personal flight simulator or something. There is a whole dynamic war going on - which, might I add, is structured around capping and maintaining flags. An aspect of the game which I think many pilots forgot long ago.

Ok, I'm sorry, but I've seen this idea of "the game is about capping flags, pilots have nothing to do with capping flags" thrown around way to often and I find it personally offensive.

For starters I can't tell you how many times I have helped out a lone team mate trying to cap a flag. As soon as I see someone moving in on an enemy flag I try to give them support. If possible I will try to make a bombing run just before they get to the base to take out or soften any resistance. Then once they have the flag at neutral I really step it up because this riles the enemy up like a swarm of angry bees. Usually once the flag goes neutral there will be a nearby APC or tank that starts moving in on the area. My job is to protect that guy at the flag and make sure that armor never gets there, and I do a damn good job of that. Just because the pilot isn't physically there raising the flag doesn't mean he didn't play just as big a role in capturing it. Not to mention all the "Defended Flag" points I have racked up taking out enemy vehicles trying to capture one of our flags.

On top of that, I do 90% of my flying in the fighters. I like the fighters because I can do precise bombing in them unlike the bombers which just obliterate everything in their path. It's a lot harder to learn to bomb with the fighters, but if you become good at it you can provide close in air support for your ground troops. I've helped out a lot of friendly armor by dropping a 500lb bomb on the hatch of an enemy tank they were fighting, even when a lot of times there may only be about 20 feet between the two vehicles at the time.

The number of times I have had team mates thank me for saving them against enemy armor tells me that people who say pilots don't understand the team apect of the game have no clue what they are talking about.

[PoweredBySoy]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

The current system in play promotes teamwork.......

Everything you write on this forum Paas is absolutely correct.

I love you.

[Paas]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

I was wondering, imagine if the mobile AA's heat seeking capability was toned down, not much, but down reasonably. BUT, it was also given a choice between using a hit or miss missile, OR firing off a manually controlled missile ala DC samsite.

Of course tons of people wouldn't like it, and I'm sure its too much work for the skilled programmers over at DICE, busy working on a bug-ridden BF3 I'm sure.

Why should ground forces have to work outrageously hard to get you out of the air!?

...It takes hardly "ANY" skill to pull of a successfull bombing run. I know, I do it whenever a Jet is left free for me to tamper with. It's not like you're having to calculate range/speed. You just dive are your "Extremely Well Lit" target, and give them 5 missiles over a wide spread; and it only takes to produce a kill.

...the arrogance of some is astounding. Jets still have the most "Dominate" weapons supply. It just takes "planning" and "teamwork" to implement correctly. Every limitation on a Jet now is the product of poor teamwork.

While i'll admit teamwork is hard to come by on most public servers, it's still there if people put the effort. If the effort isn't applied, your team is punished. Simple as that. Fly Boys cannot operate without Ground support, as it should be.

{WP}Paas

[TheGhost]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

In reality, Jet can have 9G of turning force, missiles can have 40G, need I say more?

Missile almost always win, without countermeasures.

In reality dogfights would be over before the jets got within 100 miles of each other. In reality I would just launch a few tomahawks from one of the Essex's escorts and obliterate your silly little MEC outpost. In reality the F-15 is the most dominant fighter aircraft in the world, not some slow poke bomber that can't maneuver for beans. This is a FPS, not reality. There should be some level of skill involved in all aspects. Since your such a big fan of reality, how about if my M95 cut you completely in half, like it would "in reality"?

[Xantos]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

I think it's ok. Helicopters can fly extremely low and hide behind hills, trees, buildings. It's essential to make fast passes with Hydra rockets and gattling cannon. For TV-guided missiles...just use bob-up attack e.g. hover behind a cover then add collective to raise chopper, have flares and gunner ready...BOOM tank, apc, peeps, AA is dead.

Aircrafts...fly very high or fly very low in canyons etc. Air-to-air combat...don't let your opponent get behind you.

[Paas]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

In reality dogfights would be over before the jets got within 100 miles of each other. In reality I would just launch a few tomahawks from one of the Essex's escorts and obliterate your silly little MEC outpost. In reality the F-15 is the most dominant fighter aircraft in the world, not some slow poke bomber that can't maneuver for beans. This is a FPS, not reality. There should be some level of skill involved in all aspects. Since your such a big fan of reality, how about if my M95 cut you completely in half, like it would "in reality"?

...and M95 doesn't cut anyone in half.

The F-15 is not the most dominant fighter AirCraft in the world. F-16 would actually take and F-15 in a dogfight anytime of the week; also, there are MiGs with extreme "Look Down, Shoot Down" capabilites.

Futhermore. Long range missiles can be avoided (Flares). Have been, and dog fighting is not dead. It's your mindset that cost so many pilots in Vietnam when the Army thought "The era' of the Dog Fight is over".

A MEC outpost would have "Anti-Missile" defenses much like the Essex does. So, it would be a matter of "Ground" units, or a surgical Air Strike taking out those locations before the Essex could do it's duty.

There is a level of skill involved in A.A. It's the "thinking" skill. You need to know when it's ok to man your SAM, and when it's a bad idea to expose the fact your SAM is armed.

Because, truth be told. A pilot can engage you before you're able to even begin to produce a lock.

{WP}Paas

[Kattspya]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

In reality, Jet can have 9G of turning force, missiles can have 40G, need I say more?

If we disregard the fact that realism has little or nothing to do with bf2 (such a discussion relevant to OFP or RO but not BF2) you really need to do some reading on performance of SA missiles. I have seen you making statements in several threads that I interpret as you thinking SAM's even the shoulder launched variety have above 50% percentages. If you have a source for thinking shoulder launched SA missiles will have even 25% hit ratio under combat conditions agains jets I would very much like to see it.

[DanneDA]

Re: Serious thoughts on the state of AA, past and present

I like the 1.2 patch because you now need some skills to survive in the air which is good. You also need to rely on your team to help you out.

The one thing I do not like about the patch is the implentation of the AA missiles, it's joke. They defy all the laws of physics applied to everything else in the game. If you do a *really* sharp turn the missile should not have a 100 % accuracy, more of like 70-80 %. Missiles fired perpendicular to it's target (as described in the first post) should have an accuracy of 60-70 %.

I also think the Air to Air missiles where much better in pre 1.2 as it required skill to take another air vehicle down. A solution would be to make the missiles somewhere in between pre 1.2 and 1.2. You should still be able to have a dogfight (= fun and good for the ground units as you are both occupied doing something else than bombing).

I'd take flying in 1.2 over pre 1.2 any day when it comes to bombing and helping the team. However I'd take pre 1.2 over 1.2 any day when it comes to dogfighting as it doesn't exist now.