Expansion pack?

[jimbob]

Re: Expansion pack?

There are plenty of reasons:

1) BF 2 has problems that should've been fixed before its release, but we're still dealing with them now. You've paid for a sub-par product, and now you want to pay the same company again? Way to send the right message.

2) There are already Mods coming out, such as Project Reality (within weeks now), that alter the game enough to make it interesting again. If anything, the smaller mini-mods keep us busy until the bigger Mods arrive. If you pay for SF, you're paying for the same kind of things that Mods will bring, except that SF won't be as thorough, community-driven, or well-supported.

3) BF:SF isn't an EXPANSION at all. It does nothing to expand the current gameplay, instead it REPLACES it. Can you use the new SF weapons, etc. on the old maps? No. Can you engage in SF gameplay while others engage in regular gameplay? No. SF is a separate game built on 80% of the same stuff as BF 2. If you want a lesson on how expansions should work, look at Planetside and their expansion, Aftershock.

4) By buying SF you're playing into EA's hands - they figure they can add some new content, not worry about integration, and make a second windfall on a game that they developed a while ago. You are helping cash in on a consumer-punishing product plan. If we have problems with a way a company is doing business, what are we going to do - write our Congressmen? No, we let them know that releasing broken products won't fly around BFland, and we do it by not giving them our money.

Will others buy it? Yes. But who cares? We're talking about doing the right thing, and hurting their sales numbers enough for them to realize that the emails they've received about BF2 being broken aren't just idle complaints that can be silenced with nightvision and grappling hooks.

great but none of these is a reason why we should value YOUR opinion.

1. yes i know it sux but if i want xtra bf2 action i will have top get it - its not about sending a message (you are really ignorant if you think me not buying will actually make a difference let alone any1 else - i suggest you look at their quarterly results lol, the worst that would happen is that DICE would lose contracts and that would mean the end of battlefield as we know it - real smart - whilest EA continues with its plan to buy out ubisoft - you have know idea who your dealing with)

2.hahahahaha project reality rofl. yes as i said all of the FULL MODS are a long long long way off....

3. YOU HAVE NO IDEA - have you played it?- no have you seen it? - no. is there a set criteria for an expansion pak - NO so in regards to your lesson plan i suggest you learn your s**t.

4. you look into this way to much - by buying SF i am satisfying my need to have more gaming.... yeah if you got a problem you complain, pity we know that does nothing. look, i am just sick of hearing the bitching and whining from people who i know are going to end up with it anyway.... you have fun in november - i am playing SF. oh yeah change the we's for i's - i certainly am not doing what your thinking of us doing rofl


"Will others buy it? Yes. But who cares?"
exactly. build a bridge and keep your negativity to yourself until you are able to comment with some authenticity.....

[Shae]

Re: Expansion pack?

I am buying it. I could careless what anyone else does. I think it looks great. If it means less jets and tanks I'm there.

[Mr. ADHD]

Re: Expansion pack?

Since when does someone have to join an organization just to make a difference? And what does Greenpeace have to do with gamer-consumer rights?.

Nothing...I was being facetious.

Complaining after the fact won't work - not with EA. Once they have your money, their internal meetings will show another resounding success, and continue to validate a consumer-inconsiderate product development strategy. And then nothing will change. No heads will roll. No one will raise an eyebrow.

Then you'll get BF3 with all of the same boneheaded issues as BF2 - same sh1t, different game. And everyone will sit around wondering how this happened, again, and why they haven't gotten the message by now. I'll tell ya - it's because we're not sending it.

By simply boycotting the product you could be sending a message that you're not interested in the 'special forces' theme. Fire off a letter to make your point. For every letter they receive they will estimate that there are 1000 others that feel the same way...or whatever number they use to guesstimate.

If you really want to do something...boycott and send a petition. Otherwise...join greenpeace to learn how to evoke corporate responsibility. hehe.

[Mr. ADHD]

Re: Expansion pack?

I care because I love everyone around here.....NOT.

I am buying it. I could careless what anyone else does. I think it looks great. If it means less jets and tanks I'm there.

[-{DFA}-Brak710]

Re: Expansion pack?

Wow, we went from expansion pack discussion, to ATI Buring/praising all on the first page.

Nice!

[vbl]

Re: Expansion pack?

Well, your post is a mess, but here goes...

great but none of these is a reason why we should value YOUR opinion.

Actually they're all good reasons to consider not buying SF, which is a sentiment shared by more people than just me.

its not about sending a message (you are really ignorant if you think me not buying will actually make a difference let alone any1 else

You're right, just you not buying it won't make a difference. A lot of us not buying it might turn some heads. This discussion alone has already trickled into the EA boards - believe in the buzz. Internet movements have had some serious impacts, even ones that originate in small communities.

i suggest you look at their quarterly results lol, the worst that would happen is that DICE would lose contracts and that would mean the end of battlefield as we know it

Firstly, EA owns part of DICE, so it's highly unlikely that they'll sell all of their shares just because SF tanks. Further, many gaming contracts are for more than one game - Microsoft, for example, often writes contracts that bind the publisher and development shop for 3 games, or 5 games.

So unless BF:SF happens to signal the end of the gaming contract, there is no risk here. Even if, somehow, DICE does get dumped - it'll be because of reasons far beyond crap sales of SF. Companies don't make expensive decisions based on one flop.

Your doomsday theory shouldn't discourage anyone from doing what they think it right.

2.hahahahaha project reality rofl. yes as i said all of the FULL MODS are a long long long way off....

SF isn't anywhere near a full mod in terms of content or gameplay changes, so I think my suggestion remains pretty solid.

3. YOU HAVE NO IDEA - have you played it?- no have you seen it? - no.

Have you read the preview or game description? It's pretty clear that you can only use SF stuff on SF maps, and those SF maps are separate from the regular BF2 maps.

is there a set criteria for an expansion pak - NO

There are basic criteria for a good expansion pack - the first of which is that it doesn't totally marginalize the original game on which it's based.

4. you look into this way to much

Actually, it doesn't take much "looking" at all to realize what the best path of action is.

by buying SF i am satisfying my need to have more gaming....

Kind of like someone who smokes whatever someone puts in front of them, just to satisfy their "need" for a high? My post isn't directed at you, since I'm reasonably sure that you can't say no to anything that satisfies your "need". Most of us game out of "want".

yeah if you got a problem you complain, pity we know that does nothing.

The last patch addressed a lot of complaints. Please reconcile that with your theory about complaining not achieving anything. Nevermind that I'm not telling anyone to complain - I'm suggesting that folks not buy SF.

look, i am just sick of hearing the bitching and whining from people who i know are going to end up with it anyway

I'm not going to end up with it.

Also, maybe you ought to draft your responses when you're in a less angry mood.

exactly. build a bridge and keep your negativity to yourself until you are able to comment with some authenticity.....

The facts are pretty evident and laid out nicely in front of you. My hope is that you can get past your pubescent grandstanding and tell me why we should buy the expansion, since that would actually address the issue at hand.

[strathound]

Re: Expansion pack?

Oh I recognize it fine. I'm just not willing to let you get away with using it to deflect an argument.

What argument? You said, "Don't buy it?" And the general consensus here is that individuals will decide to buy or not buy based on their own individual assessment of value vs. cost.

There's no argument. I'm just mocking the audacity of your comment. Sounds like there are a few of you that feel the same way. So, in the immortal words of Miracle Max, "have fun storming the castle." Let us know how deep your boycott affects EA stock.

In the meantime, I'm interested in seeing how this title pans out. At the moment, BF2 is the game I look forward to playing when I pull into my driveway. Just ended my WoW subscription. Must be doing something right.

[vbl]

Re: Expansion pack?

What argument? You said, "Don't buy it?" And the general consensus here is that individuals will decide to buy or not buy based on their own individual assessment of value vs. cost.

I made an argument as to why folks shouldn't buy SF, you tried to debunk it as a worthwhile argument using some pretty flimsy sarcasm, and then I called you on it. This isn't complicated.

[strathound]

Re: Expansion pack?

There are plenty of reasons:
3) BF:SF isn't an EXPANSION at all. It does nothing to expand the current gameplay, instead it REPLACES it. Can you use the new SF weapons, etc. on the old maps? No. Can you engage in SF gameplay while others engage in regular gameplay? No. SF is a separate game built on 80% of the same stuff as BF 2. If you want a lesson on how expansions should work, look at Planetside and their expansion, Aftershock.

4) By buying SF you're playing into EA's hands - they figure they can add some new content, not worry about integration, and make a second windfall on a game that they developed a while ago. You are helping cash in on a consumer-punishing product plan. If we have problems with a way a company is doing business, what are we going to do - write our Congressmen? No, we let them know that releasing broken products won't fly around BFland, and we do it by not giving them our money.

Ok, you are sucking me in. LOL. Look, that's great if you want to send a message. Heck, I might even join you if I know why I'm doing it. You have to convince me that action like this needs to be taken. I'm near that point with the server browser for instance. But the points you make above are not necessarily compelling to me because I don't mind paying for another expansion that gives new and different gameplay. I don't need the infinite HL mods. Although I am intrigued by Planetside. Many people have told me to take a look at it and that I would enjoy it.

But that aside. I see NOTHING wrong with EA trying to make money selling their software. In fact, you could argue that the more money they are making, the more that they can invest in R&D and improved gameplay ideas. Just look at the money Blizzard is making on World of Warcraft. Holy snikes. And if you've played that game, you realize the time and effort that went into it. It's massive.

My counter argument to you is that at this point, BF2 is not crappy enough for ME to feel justified boycotting EA or DICE. It's actually a pretty darn fun game, if you can look past it's shortcomings. Once I'm in game, I'm in heaven. The blackhawks don't bother me. Does anybody even shoot at those things? A couple of Support and an AT will send it back wimpering to mama in a very short firefight. What else is there? Yes, the maps will get boring after a while. I play the same three over and over.

But ask yourself this. Have you gotten $50 worth of entertainment out of the game so far? I sure have. I have over 100 hours of gametime. What would this cost ... at the movies? Well, assuming 3 hour movies and $8 a ticket, that's $264. And I'm sure I've got hundreds of hours of gaming ahead of me still.

So sure, I'd buy another EA product again if it's this good. Wouldn't even blink. I feel that the concept of BF:SF is compelling enough already to drop another $50 on it. If you don't, ok, great. Sorry we won't get to game together.

[strathound]

Re: Expansion pack?

I made an argument as to why folks shouldn't buy SF, you tried to debunk it as a worthwhile argument using some pretty flimsy sarcasm, and then I called you on it. This isn't complicated.

Come on ass ... variable ... where's the love? Give your bud a hug. It's going to be ok.

[vbl]

Re: Expansion pack?

I don't mind paying for another expansion that gives new and different gameplay.

Firstly, gameplay is not going to be new, or very different. Read the EA SF site. Literally, you'll be capturing flags just like BF2. The only difference is that you get 7 new vehicles (scattered across 8 new maps), and 10 new weapons (scattered across 6 armies). Oh, and it'll be darker.

But that aside. I see NOTHING wrong with EA trying to make money selling their software. In fact, you could argue that the more money they are making, the more that they can invest in R&D and improved gameplay ideas.

EA doesn't consider quality products, happy employees, or even happy customers as core values. If you haven't already, please read this:
EA: The Human Story

It's only one person's opinion, but there are posts all over Slashdot and other mainstream websites that corroborate the blogger's claims. Google it if you want to see the impact that this one blog entry has made.

My counter argument to you is that at this point, BF2 is not crappy enough for ME to feel justified boycotting EA or DICE. It's actually a pretty darn fun game, if you can look past it's shortcomings.

My contention is that we should stop being so tolerant of shortcomings.

But ask yourself this. Have you gotten $50 worth of entertainment out of the game so far?

Maybe. I've also gotten a lot of frustration and annoyance. Others have had far worse experiences. Either way, BF2 is not always a joy to play - sometimes it's downright abysmal and I have to shut it off and walk away. Do you think it's right for a game to induce those feelings?

So sure, I'd buy another EA product again if it's this good. Wouldn't even blink. I feel that the concept of BF:SF is compelling enough already to drop another $50 on it.

I think you're romanticizing it. Go read the game features again, and then tell me that it's anything more than Strike at Karkand at night, with a few more weapons, a few more vehicles, and the same old gameplay. Factor in the inevitable bugs, exploits, and the fact that you won't get to play with anyone who doesn't have it, and tell me it's worth the money.

Tell me that you absolutely have to have these minor things right now vs. waiting , keeping your cash, doing the right thing vs. EA, and playing one of the many more comprehensive, innovative mods due out in the next 6 months.

[strathound]

Re: Expansion pack?

EA doesn't consider quality products, happy employees, or even happy customers as core values. If you haven't already, please read this:
EA: The Human Story

[snip]

Tell me that you absolutely have to have these minor things right now vs. aiting , keeping your cash, doing the right thing vs. EA, and playing one of the many more comprehensive, innovative mods due out in the next 6 months.

Ok, that link was new to me, so I gave it a read. Interesting, but not surprising. First of all, I have several friends who work at a major gaming company here in Dallas. They've approached me about working there. I said no. Not because it wouldn't be a dream job. I know what they are working on, and it would be. But everyone out there knows what it's like working for a game company. It's no picnic. It's either your life, or you find something else. Writing computer programs is not my life, not anymore.

Second, I've been through that. Yep. Been there, done that, 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for months on end. But that's what happens when you are young and stupid and willing to please.

I'm not trying to discount what the blogger was saying. I'm just saying that I know that stuff happens and they can get away with it because every hotshot coming out of college wants to write games. And they live on Mt. Dew and bologna sandwiches. So they pay them dirt and give them their dream job. If it's so awful, why aren't more of them leaving to write insurance software?

But that brings us back to your crusade. I feel for you, I really do, even if your rationale is constantly changing. I can't tell if it's because the game sucks or if it's because EA is bad to their employees or both. But if it's the bad company issue, then why'd you buy the first title? I bet you have BF 1942 media sitting around your house too.

So tell us. Who are you trying to save? Is it really the overworked software developers that you care so much about? Or is it the thought of buying a product that fails to meet your personal standards that has you up in arms? Or, perhaps, are you really so convinced of your own superiority that you believe you can make any quip you like and people will naturally follow you?

Whatever your motive, you have yet to make a compelling argument. My recommendation to you, if you are serious, is to write your thoughts out in advance, scrutinize them, them post them as a new thread on this forum. Don't bury your thoughts in another thread where they will be ignored. and don't leak it out in stages. Get it all out in one go, and make the sale. Do this and people might take your suggestion seriously.

[vbl]

Re: Expansion pack?

But that brings us back to your crusade. I feel for you, I really do, even if your rationale is constantly changing. I can't tell if it's because the game sucks or if it's because EA is bad to their employees or both. But if it's the bad company issue, then why'd you buy the first title?

Firstly, I cited the EA spouse blog as a direct response to something you wrote:

"In fact, you could argue that the more money they are making, the more that they can invest in R&D and improved gameplay ideas."

Using the blog as at least one form of proof, my contention is that the money EA makes simply will not find its way back to anyone concerned with creating "improved gameplay ideas". The developers struggle just to get the product finished, much less consider how to make it better.

BF1942 and BFV never received "improved gameplay" either - just expansions that added, to no one's surprise, more maps, factions, and weapons. Content that is freely available in mods.

Ultimately, the gameplay they created in BF 1942 has remained almost exactly the same across all three major releases. Isn't it time we stopped paying them for it?

All of that aside, my rationale has always been the same - you just keep asking for more detail and more reasons, so I graciously give them to you. I think that all of the above issues are relevant to the discussion at hand, and they all contribute to the strength behind my personal conviction on the matter.

If they continue to operate in the manner they are, EA, and especially the BF franchise, are not worthy of our ongoing financial support. Pick your reason(s).

So tell us. Who are you trying to save? Is it really the overworked software developers that you care so much about? Or is it the thought of buying a product that fails to meet your personal standards that has you up in arms? Or, perhaps, are you really so convinced of your own superiority that you believe you can make any quip you like and people will naturally follow you?

I'm not trying to save anyone. I'm just stating something that goes against the mainstream in the hopes of getting a few people to reconsider what they otherwise thought to be an easy, obvious choice.

Maybe someone decides SF isn't worth it because of the way EA treats people, or maybe they decide they don't want to pay for more buggy software. Maybe they just don't like the shallow add-ons included with the expansion. For me, they're all good reasons. The best thing I can do is surface these ideas and let people decide.

Whatever your motive, you have yet to make a compelling argument. My recommendation to you, if you are serious, is to write your thoughts out in advance, scrutinize them, them post them as a new thread on this forum. Don't bury your thoughts in another thread where they will be ignored. and don't leak it out in stages. Get it all out in one go, and make the sale. Do this and people might take your suggestion seriously.

Thanks for the advice, but I've done quite enough writing on the issue to satisfy my sense of obligation to openly state what I believe to be a purchase worth questioning.

Frankly, I'm not sure anything will change your mind. If you want proof beyond what I've outlined, you're not going to find it. There are no facts that finger EA as baby-killers, or supporters of terrorism. There is no hidden epiphany that anyone can give you that will righteously and conclusively drag you away from your choice.

For you, it sounds like the right thing is buying the expansion. Good luck with it.

[Jesse]

Re: Expansion pack?

But that aside. I see NOTHING wrong with EA trying to make money selling their software. In fact, you could argue that the more money they are making, the more that they can invest in R&D and improved gameplay ideas. Just look at the money Blizzard is making on World of Warcraft. Holy snikes. And if you've played that game, you realize the time and effort that went into it. It's massive.

What a coincidence, I don't find anything wrong with EA trying to make money selling their software either. I do find a problem with them releasing half finished products and then not even half a year later, releasing a lack-luster mod with very little change to the game, and charging people money for it. They're not trying to please you, they're trying to take advantage of you. Blizzard is making money on World of Warcraft, for one because it requires a subscription fee. It also has infinitely better support than EA gives for anything, and has a constantly changing environment.

My counter argument to you is that at this point, BF2 is not crappy enough for ME to feel justified boycotting EA or DICE. It's actually a pretty darn fun game, if you can look past it's shortcomings. Once I'm in game, I'm in heaven. The blackhawks don't bother me. Does anybody even shoot at those things? A couple of Support and an AT will send it back wimpering to mama in a very short firefight. What else is there? Yes, the maps will get boring after a while. I play the same three over and over.

I partially agree. Battlefield 2 CAN be fun. However, everytime I try to look past the shortcomings, they continue to remind me of themselves...you just CAN'T look beyond these shortcomings as they are constantly obvious in the game. I'm sure you can name at least 3 things in the game that you know are wrong, that have been there since BEFORE the release, that they still haven't fixed. And hey, Blackhawks never bothered me either, that's just a sad example of people whining and getting one of the few good features in the game ruined. (adding to cap rate while in vehicles, if you didn't catch that and thought I simply meant the Blackhawk as a flying fortress, which it wasn't to begin with)

But ask yourself this. Have you gotten $50 worth of entertainment out of the game so far? I sure have. I have over 100 hours of gametime. What would this cost ... at the movies? Well, assuming 3 hour movies and $8 a ticket, that's $264. And I'm sure I've got hundreds of hours of gaming ahead of me still.

I've seen this analogy tons of times, and I still don't buy it. Goto the movies, what if the screen has tears in it and the lights keep flickering during the movie? Or you goto a restaurant and your table is crooked, the seat legs are uneven, and there are croutons in your drink.

So sure, I'd buy another EA product again if it's this good. Wouldn't even blink. I feel that the concept of BF:SF is compelling enough already to drop another $50 on it. If you don't, ok, great. Sorry we won't get to game together.

The concept of Battlefield Special Forces is compelling? What are you on, seriously. SF is going to be nothing but more base camping, flag hopping, noob tubing players in darker areas. That's it. Stealth will not be used, it won't even be useful. The commander assets spelled it's death in the base of the game, and they're making their return in SF. Ziplines don't even matter, and I wouldn't be suprised if a mod couldn't code it with existing code and objects in BF2 at present. New vehicles? Please. If the majority of vehicles being a jetski, 4-wheeler, and a truck that is already in the BF2 code minus it's hud, is something for you to pay $50 for, you either have no concept of value, or are a spoiled rich person. Not trying to be offensive, but if you say you want to spend $50 on all of this, you obviously are not catching either the value of said money or the quality of said mod. (it's not expanding anything, sorry, I see no reason it should be called an expansion pack except that EA names things that because they want to take advantage of people)

-----------------------------------------

OK, Variable makes perfectly valid statements, and I back him 100%. EA is simply trying to take advantage of you. They have flat out LIED to you in previews before the game, promising things up until the very release, and then ignore us when we wonder where everything went. They have released you a product with bugs that were in the demo long before the release, and still haven't fixed them. They can't even get a serverbrowser correct, something that games have gotten right years and years ago. At least with BF1942 and BFV under their belt, you would think they could write a serverbrowser now. It's nothing but simply string comparison, and they can't even do that right. I still don't see your logic in supporting Special Forces, so please enlighten me on what reasons there are to waste money on a product.

And by the way, anyone who buys it is indirectly telling EA they are pleased with the way BF2 was released, whether you like it or not. Sales figures do matter, and OUR money is what makes them. Look at quarterly reports? Where do you think those come from? EA, although they probably have enough money to buy about 20 printing operations, do not just print their own money and make up numbers. Consumers, such as ourselves, make up those numbers. If we don't fall into their trap, their quarterly profits go down, it's not hard to understand. If their profits go down, it will eventually get through their stone hearts that they might want to bring their games up to par with anything else on the market.

[DogGunn]

Re: Expansion pack?

As long as there are more

infantry

battles I'm happy.