the real MEC army could happen

[imported_Rafterman]

The only thing most Middle Eastern states hate more than the United States is each other. The closest thing ever to a MEC army was when Egypt and Syria ganged up on Israel -- even then it wasn't a single army.

I agree with the others, I the next big showdown on the horizon is with China.

[big_sammy_b]

who knows in the near future there will be some sort of of MEC army. what actually bothers me more is the fact that China isn't that poor anymore. their economie is growing everyday and with an rate like this they're gonna be a bigger threat then some MEC army (no offence it COULD be possible that such an amry will rise and will be a threat).

China is already the wealthiest country in the world with the strongest economy with the most growth, so much so in fact recently congress wanted to impose sanctions on China due to there textiles industry but in the end they had to retract the sanctions as it would have cost America more than it would have cost China.

What we will see soon from China is it will develop a car and arms industry. They want a big army and are quickloy developing it but at the oment its not much use other than for defence because they don't manufacter it they buy there arms of countries like Israel. Without there own arms industry they won't be efective in a war because the people selling them arms can just stop and it all grinds to a halt, so they will start devloping there own weapons and start selling them like the US and UK do.

[glaeken]

I agree with the others, I the next big showdown on the horizon is with China.

There will be no showdown. China are too powerful. The US would of course win but at too greater cost. There may be something along the lines of a cold war but in all honesty I think China has too much to loose economically.

Really why need there be a show down anyway? If you can win economically then what else matters?

[imported_Spork]

At present, it appears China will take over the USA industrially in half a century or so. Of course, many things could knock the behemoth off course - a lack of energy resources, water and a widening gap between the poor and the prosperous. Nevertheless, if these issues are resolved then China will be the world superpower in the future. Coincidentally, the Chinese government is already securing oil trade agreements with Venezuela and Russia.

Militarily speaking, bolstered by the inflating economy, the Chinese armed forces will be the most formidable in the world. Naturally they won't be invading the USA, but their more weaker neighbours could easily be subjugated, and dominating world trade would cause more than enough harm.

Edit: For all the twats saying the USA could win a war with China - have fun catching the ICBMs - both nations would be crippled beyond recognition and the entire world would suffer the enviromental and economic consequences. Some common sense is applicable here.

[imported_Rafterman]

There will be no showdown. China are too powerful. The US would of course win but at too greater cost. There may be something along the lines of a cold war but in all honesty I think China has too much to loose economically.

Really why need there be a show down anyway? If you can win economically then what else matters?

Well a showdown doesn't have to be a shooting war. We had several showdowns with the Soviets during the Cold War. That's what I was referring to.

This debate comes up a lot where I work and it's always China is going to do this and the US is going to do that -- nobody really knows for sure. China has alot of domestic probems to work out -- I've been there and seen it first hand. There's lots of money over there, but it's mainly in the cities -- you see lots of Benz, BMWs, Range Rovers, etc. But go 10 miles outside of Beijing and it's the 3rd world. Ask yourself this, where do you think most of the military comes from? It's kind of hard to see folks living in high rise penthouses and driving luxury cars when dad's back home plowing a yak and mom is fetching water from a dirty creek.

I heard a rumor when I was there that the PLA doesn't post soldiers to their home regions b/c of the possibility of problems along these lines. Can anyone confirm that?

[glaeken]

Edit: For all the twats saying the USA could win a war with China - have fun catching the ICBMs - both nations would be crippled beyond recognition and the entire world would suffer the enviromental and economic consequences. Some common sense is applicable here.

Well whenever this theoretical argument gets raised it is always assumed it would be a conventional war. If you get into the whole MAD thing then of course there could be no winner.

The big issue as I understand it on the conventional war is China though having huge man power resources lacks the ability to transfer this power outside of its boarders meaning it is pretty much a defensive force only.
Though that raises the question of the US being unable to beat them on on their home turf given that man power advantage.

If both powers were to fight over something outside of their boarders though I would give it to the US just because that is the type of war the US military is set-up to fight.

[big_sammy_b]

There will be no war, china has no reason too. Its funny when you hear people (usually americans) who say a war with China is certain, they only say that because they just can't accept that there communists and are prospering economically, but they are its a fact.

And before long they'll by the ultimate superpower economically and peacefully and they will have no reason to invade anyone apart from anything else they need the rest of the world to be on good terms with them for trade etc.

As i said earlier they will devlop a arms industry and probably sell weapons to people who previously bought from the Americans and British but thats what any superpower does it doesn't mean there going to declare WW3.

[imported_Rafterman]

There will be no war, china has no reason too. Its funny when you hear people (usually americans) who say a war with China is certain, they only say that because they just can't accept that there communists and are prospering economically, but they are its a fact.

Well one could certainly argue that the reason they are prospering economically is that for certain market segments they have adopted a capitalistic approach to business.

The struggle that they are going to have is just how much of a free market is the central government going to allow. Funny thing about freedom, once people get a taste of it, they want more -- particularly if they're making money. My opinion is that this force will be greater than anything the US or the military could ever send their way.

It's the opposite of Cuba. I understand why the embargo was implemented, but it was absolutely the wrong thing to do if the US wanted them to change their ways.

As has been said, the US military might not be able to topple a communist regime, but McDonalds, Kentucky Fried Chicken, and Starbucks can bring them down in a heartbeat.

[lcplsickoll]

Actually there curretnly are, and have been, defenses against ICBM's.

[big_sammy_b]

Have you ever thought that maybe these people in the majority like living under communism? I think they do. Most people in China have a good standard of living etc for sure theres a lot of persecution if you mess with the state but for the most part i don't think people are unhappy and you have to remember there chinese not american its a drastically different culture some would say sheep like in many ways.

As for starbucks and KFC as i said before China ALREADY has a richer economy than the U.S i think its very unlikely those companies are going to topple anyone.

[glaeken]

I am not sure I would define capitalism as freedom. Let’s compare the two systems. Both have a very small percentage of the population holding the vast majority of the power. Are the disadvantaged any better off under capitalism than communism?

Of course there is that old fable that under capitalism anyone can succeed if they put the effort in but in all honesty that is total fallacy. If everyone put the effort in how could everyone succeed? How could you have a society where everyone was rich? Who would collect you trash? who would serve you a burger?

In truth you succeed through capitalism because others fail.

Where capitalism succeeds over communism it is in the fact it fits with human nature far better. It is the law of the jungle and that is what we are evolved to cope with. One thing I would never call it though is freedom.

[big_sammy_b]

^^ exactly.

So when oh when will America realise that democracy and capitalism isn't for everyone and shouldn't be imposed on countries that haven't decided to follow that ideal independantly?

[imported_Rafterman]

Have you ever thought that maybe these people in the majority like living under communism? I think they do. Most people in China have a good standard of living etc for sure theres a lot of persecution if you mess with the state but for the most part i don't think people are unhappy and you have to remember there chinese not american its a drastically different culture some would say sheep like in many ways.

As for starbucks and KFC as i said before China ALREADY has a richer economy than the U.S i think its very unlikely those companies are going to topple anyone.

Well I'm sure the Soviets "liked" living under Communism too and I'm sure many North Koreans and Cubans "like" it as well. Until they experience something different that is.

People like being able to do whatever they want to do and a government can't get away with telling its citizens that they can have freedom in one area, but not in another.

I work in the hospitality industry and see everyday the growth that's happening in China. Do we really think that a Chinese citizen that owns a company that employs thousands and is making millions of dollars building and buying hotels is going to be "sheepish" when the government tells him what to do.

These are the types of market forces that the Central Government is in one form embracing, but in other ways terrified of because they know they can't control it.

[big_sammy_b]

well not exactly in a ideal situation the government would control all industry and all profits from that industry would be paid in to the governments pocket bypassing the need for taxation or at least greatly reducing it.

The only reason in the UK we have sold off our state owned railways for example is because our governemnt is inept its not because it isn't profitable because if it wasn't nobody would have bought it would they.

A good example of state ownership of manufactering is the Volkswagen Audi group which is owned by the German government and highly profitable.

As for what people like, well your looking at it from a western perspective how do you know what people like? The truth is you don't.

[imported_Rafterman]

I am not sure I would define capitalism as freedom. Let’s compare the two systems. Both have a very small percentage of the population holding the vast majority of the power. Are the disadvantaged any better off under capitalism than communism?

Of course there is that old fable that under capitalism anyone can succeed if they put the effort in but in all honesty that is total fallacy. If everyone put the effort in how could everyone succeed? How could you have a society where everyone was rich? Who would collect you trash? who would serve you a burger?

In truth you succeed through capitalism because others fail.

Where capitalism succeeds over communism it is in the fact it fits with human nature far better. It is the law of the jungle and that is what we are evolved to cope with. One thing I would never call it though is freedom.

Well no one has every said you were guaranteed success -- what capitalism provides is an opportunity to succeed. In the US, the child of a dirt farmer does, in fact, have the opportunity to raise themselves up to a higher standard of living -- it's not easy, but he/she can succeed. In China, the child of a dirt farmer has one option -- to become a dirt farmer.

And you're right, it does fit with human nature -- which is why it can't be stopped once the seed is planted.