How I love and hate the Spy

[EyeofG]

Got to actually play some spy in a few servers I was in some time ago and here are my thoughs on the spy.

Good:
I just feels so good when you get into your foe's base without them knowing that your a spy and then when you get to stab snipers and not get seen... it is just so awesome

When getting to plant sabbers on those eng items and not get seen, is also pretty funny/awesome

Backstabs

Bad:
Sadly, now a days, Since most people want to get the pyro unlocks and acivs, playing a spy is VERY hard without being put on fire by a pyro.

The names. When you become your foe, it auto-asigns you a name of a member of their team and this is bad when, the people with that name comes up to you, looks at you and go "SPY" then shoots you

The cloak watch gives you a VERY limited time to get somewhere near or get you into your foe's base and sadly, going uncloaked at the worst times

The Knife. The knife when stabbing someone in the back works great and kills in one hit. When stabbing anyone anywhere else on their body does about 1/10 damage to them and then showing yourself as a spy so then everyone killing you.

The new update. In one of the most recent updates, the spy was nerfed so that it doesn't move like the person they are hiding as. So no more double jumps to a spy dressed as a scout. This also goes for all the rest of the classes other then heavy, in which moves slowly still....

[ch3ch3n]

Re: How I love and hate the Spy

i agree whit you it s prety hard and frustrating to play the spy at this stage. You will be killed more then you kill. And yes the cloak goes way to fast and it takes way to long to regarge. The disguise doest work enymore so i think in the future whit the spy update it would be smart for valve to make the cloak a lot longer and faster regarge. This will save him more than the diguise.

[EyeofG]

Re: How I love and hate the Spy

i agree whit you it s prety hard and frustrating to play the spy at this stage. You will be killed more then you kill. And yes the cloak goes way to fast and it takes way to long to regarge. The disguise doest work enymore so i think in the future whit the spy update it would be smart for valve to make the cloak a lot longer and faster regarge. This will save him more than the diguise.

I'd hope in the Spy update they would actually make one of the weapon make your cloak watch last longer

[ch3ch3n]

Re: How I love and hate the Spy

I'd hope in the Spy update they would actually make one of the weapon make your cloak watch last longer

that s what i m trying to say here

[MrChris_CJ]

Re: How I love and hate the Spy

There are many things to consider about Spy, he is one of the hardest classes and one requiring skill and brains, to be an effective spy is a monumental task under some circumstances.

The recent pyro update hasn't made things better, even smacktards can spycheck etc etc

Spy however has always been slightly broken, I kill far more spies than I ever get backstabbed for many reasons.

But these are some things you need to consider:

The Spy could never double jump when he impersonated the scout and when disguised as scout you have to remember the Spys base movement speed, the scouts max speed is beyond that of a spy who cannot move any faster than he normally can so when disguised as scout he moves slower. The best way to counter this is to only use it in hectic situations, at a distance or to sidestep a lot to trick people into thinking you are moving faster than you really are.
When a spy disguises as a slower class he slows down because this better impersonates the class, if you saw a heavy moving at the normal spy speed it would be VERY obvious.

Spies are also very easy to spot, they almost always have the telltale level of hp, around the 60-75% mark.
They will always have the primary weapon of the class displayed and as a medic do not have an ubercharge meter; most spies also make themselves very obvious and do not replicate the behaviour of the class they are portraying, most simply run in to try and sap and get promptly mowed

The spy naming has always been this way and there's nothing wrong with it.
For example if you are disguised as a demoman and the enemy team has no demoman then you will be randomly assigned a name from potentially anyone on the enemy team.

If you disguised as pyro however and the enemy team has 3 pyros on their side then its a random choice of their 3 names. Its not a drawback its simply game design, the name function has always been there and can be one of the funniest features.

Otherwise the cloak is a bit annoying in that you can't recharge it in supply boxes or on dispensers, but it is not a long term tool. Its primary uses are for escape and to avoid detection; for moving around the map so you can get in a good position behind the enemy without being seen. Just remember to dodge enemies as you will flicker if you brush against them

And the knife is supposed to do low damage, it 1 hit kills from the backstab after all (even if that is borked, fail animations ftl) that's why you have the revolver which is a very powerful and useful weapon is utterly underused.

The main problem with the knife is the hit detection and animation resulting in many annoying failed backstabs which should have killed the target, such failures almost always result in a dead spy

The class is one of risk, taking chances etc It isn't at all balanced because atm he has such a hard time (however expect the Spy update to change many things) the spy is used to get behind enemy lines and cause chaos and confusion not be in the middle fighting with soldiers and pyros (although you can do that if you wish). Otherwise most of the points you listed as cons are basic gameplay features with not much wrong with them

the spy atm simply suffers from an unbalance, its increasingly hard for him to deal damage because he can be very obvious despite the best spies efforts to remain concealed

good things to do for the spy would be:
1. randomise the health bar when disguised and make it reactive
2. when disguised as medic he gets a randomly generate ubercharge meter (would make for some hilarious moments)
3. he has the ability to display secondary weapons and melee weapons, eg when he gets out his revolver he has the primary weapon, sapper secondary, butterfly knife for melee
4. dispensers, cabinets replenish cloak
5. Pyros need to maintain a short sustained fire on the spy to ignite him, so they can no longer just spam and insta light him up
6. Unlocks need to help him out of his current predicament, such as weapons that help to recharge the cloak when they land kills etc, or a phase cloak that lets him pass through enemies and the only way to detect him is weapons fire
7. Fix the dam backstab animation and hit detection (and the pyro flamethrower mechanics) a shorter animation like a stab and twist would be better because right now most of my backstabs are done on the fly when someone runs past me or something; the times where he does the flickup are far more prone to unfair failure

the spies abilities are balanced in theory, with drawbacks and benefits, but unfortunately the other classes don't fit in well with him and thus plow him into the floor in most cases. He doesn't even need anything on the level of the ott pyro update and none of the suggestions I made are game breaking at all

(sorry about the mega post but you should read it even with the bad grammar)

[EyeofG]

Re: How I love and hate the Spy

There are many things to consider about Spy, he is one of the hardest classes and one requiring skill and brains, to be an effective spy is a monumental task under some circumstances.

The recent pyro update hasn't made things better, even smacktards can spycheck etc etc

Spy however has always been slightly broken, I kill far more spies than I ever get backstabbed for many reasons.

But these are some things you need to consider:

The Spy could never double jump when he impersonated the scout and when disguised as scout you have to remember the Spys base movement speed, the scouts max speed is beyond that of a spy who cannot move any faster than he normally can so when disguised as scout he moves slower. The best way to counter this is to only use it in hectic situations, at a distance or to sidestep a lot to trick people into thinking you are moving faster than you really are.
When a spy disguises as a slower class he slows down because this better impersonates the class, if you saw a heavy moving at the normal spy speed it would be VERY obvious.

Spies are also very easy to spot, they almost always have the telltale level of hp, around the 60-75% mark.
They will always have the primary weapon of the class displayed and as a medic do not have an ubercharge meter; most spies also make themselves very obvious and do not replicate the behaviour of the class they are portraying, most simply run in to try and sap and get promptly mowed

The spy naming has always been this way and there's nothing wrong with it.
For example if you are disguised as a demoman and the enemy team has no demoman then you will be randomly assigned a name from potentially anyone on the enemy team.

If you disguised as pyro however and the enemy team has 3 pyros on their side then its a random choice of their 3 names. Its not a drawback its simply game design, the name function has always been there and can be one of the funniest features.

Otherwise the cloak is a bit annoying in that you can't recharge it in supply boxes or on dispensers, but it is not a long term tool. Its primary uses are for escape and to avoid detection; for moving around the map so you can get in a good position behind the enemy without being seen. Just remember to dodge enemies as you will flicker if you brush against them

And the knife is supposed to do low damage, it 1 hit kills from the backstab after all (even if that is borked, fail animations ftl) that's why you have the revolver which is a very powerful and useful weapon is utterly underused.

The main problem with the knife is the hit detection and animation resulting in many annoying failed backstabs which should have killed the target, such failures almost always result in a dead spy

The class is one of risk, taking chances etc It isn't at all balanced because atm he has such a hard time (however expect the Spy update to change many things) the spy is used to get behind enemy lines and cause chaos and confusion not be in the middle fighting with soldiers and pyros (although you can do that if you wish). Otherwise most of the points you listed as cons are basic gameplay features with not much wrong with them

the spy atm simply suffers from an unbalance, its increasingly hard for him to deal damage because he can be very obvious despite the best spies efforts to remain concealed

good things to do for the spy would be:
1. randomise the health bar when disguised and make it reactive
2. when disguised as medic he gets a randomly generate ubercharge meter (would make for some hilarious moments)
3. he has the ability to display secondary weapons and melee weapons, eg when he gets out his revolver he has the primary weapon, sapper secondary, butterfly knife for melee
4. dispensers, cabinets replenish cloak
5. Pyros need to maintain a short sustained fire on the spy to ignite him, so they can no longer just spam and insta light him up
6. Unlocks need to help him out of his current predicament, such as weapons that help to recharge the cloak when they land kills etc, or a phase cloak that lets him pass through enemies and the only way to detect him is weapons fire
7. Fix the dam backstab animation and hit detection (and the pyro flamethrower mechanics) a shorter animation like a stab and twist would be better because right now most of my backstabs are done on the fly when someone runs past me or something; the times where he does the flickup are far more prone to unfair failure

the spies abilities are balanced in theory, with drawbacks and benefits, but unfortunately the other classes don't fit in well with him and thus plow him into the floor in most cases. He doesn't even need anything on the level of the ott pyro update and none of the suggestions I made are game breaking at all

(sorry about the mega post but you should read it even with the bad grammar)

Well to sadly to correct you, when in the foe's outfits, the spies used to move more like each of the different classes then just moving like a spy moves. Like I said, when there was in a recent update, they removed that fact and only lefted the normal speed of a heavy in there. I have been playing TF2 for a good few months and I can tell the different.

[iQue]

Re: How I love and hate the Spy

Spy doesn't need a fix. I still do fine even though I have to struggle more than before (I like the challenge)

People just need to stop playing on these dustbowl/goldrush 24/7 32 player servers.

Gravelpit and granary are the best damn maps in the game

[MrChris_CJ]

Re: How I love and hate the Spy

I think you misunderstood me, I have been playing TF2 for months as well, I even dabbled in the beta, albeit for a very short period (when the sappers weren't nerfed)

Each class has a base movement speed that they cannot exceed, the spy is actually one of the faster classes

BUT

disguising as a scout does not make him move faster because this would exceed his base movement speeds

and disguising as a slower class will also slow him down to match the base movement speeds of that class

the only disguise that the spy can use to move at the normal base spy movement rate is when he is actually disguised as another spy, these are simple gameplay rules and mechanics and cannot be subverted

basically the rule for disguises is you move at the same speed as the class you are disguised as but only a long as you do not disguise as a faster class

Spy doesn't need a fix. I still do fine even though I have to struggle more than before (I like the challenge)

People just need to stop playing on these dustbowl/goldrush 24/7 32 player servers.

Gravelpit and granary are the best damn maps in the game

although those servers are indeed the spawn of satan

there are some aspects to the spy that are flawed compared to others, there are just some minor changes that would make him fun and effective to play but without making it game breaking

[EyeofG]

Re: How I love and hate the Spy

Yeah one map that really sucks with Spy is Fort2

[iQue]

Re: How I love and hate the Spy

The only "fixes" I want is the backstab detection and the damn bug when you get stuck in people all the time and can't get away. Both when I'm cloaked and just disguised.

Yeah one map that really sucks with Spy is Fort2

lolwut

It's easily one of the best maps for spying. On smaller servers that is ^^

[Mo0by]

Re: How I love and hate the Spy

Yeah 2fort is one of the best spy maps as long as you dont venture into their base too far.

[iQue]

Re: How I love and hate the Spy

You don't want to take the intel with 3 sentry nests waiting outside

[signa]

Re: How I love and hate the Spy

I never disguise as scout, its a dead giveaway to the enemy team when they see a scout moving too slow. I usually disguise as sniper and get behind the enemy team. people mostly ignore snipers because they are usually just standing around and hanging back. Use a little side to side movement when disguised as sniper. It looks like you are trying to get an angle to snipe someone. I also don't disguise as soldier or heavy that much either because they move too slow. Usually I want to move quicker so I can get the backstab. Heavy is good if you want to get some healing or uber from an enemy medic.
I always try to recharge up to at least 50% cloak before attacking so i have at least a little cloak to get away. To use the cloak effectively you need to know safe areas of a map where you can kind of hide out and recharge. Also when cloaking, hit cloak and wait around 1 second extra before moving out of cover so your not seen cloaking. Enemies always see you at 50% health when disguised, but you can boost your health up to normal level by healing off of a enemy dispenser, or getting an enemy medic to heal you.

[AllFoamNoBeer]

Re: How I love and hate the Spy

Guising as a sniper is probably the best, you can safely just stand in the enemy base with your "rifle" and walk about looking for your backstab.

[solofowaffles]

Re: How I love and hate the Spy

I never disguise as scout, its a dead giveaway to the enemy team when they see a scout moving too slow. I usually disguise as sniper and get behind the enemy team. people mostly ignore snipers because they are usually just standing around and hanging back. Use a little side to side movement when disguised as sniper. It looks like you are trying to get an angle to snipe someone. I also don't disguise as soldier or heavy that much either because they move too slow. Usually I want to move quicker so I can get the backstab. Heavy is good if you want to get some healing or uber from an enemy medic.
I always try to recharge up to at least 50% cloak before attacking so i have at least a little cloak to get away. To use the cloak effectively you need to know safe areas of a map where you can kind of hide out and recharge. Also when cloaking, hit cloak and wait around 1 second extra before moving out of cover so your not seen cloaking. Enemies always see you at 50% health when disguised, but you can boost your health up to normal level by healing off of a enemy dispenser, or getting an enemy medic to heal you.

The master has spoken.