Assault = Impossible?

[Paas]

Re: Assault = Impossible?

Honestly, I don't recall anyone asking for an IO "Mode"... maybe maps, but not "Modes". Hell, I don't recall anyone asking for cartillary; seems like EA/Dice is just going out on random idea orgies now...

Anyways. Planewhore, what exactly did you predict? "IO" concept wasn't a hot button issue, hell, I didn't even know it was going on. Vehicle balance crys, maybe, but complete removal on "ALL" maps? Not so much.

{WP}Paas

[Revoluti0n]

Re: Assault = Impossible?

Honestly, I don't recall anyone asking for an IO "Mode"... maybe maps, but not "Modes". Hell, I don't recall anyone asking for cartillary; seems like EA/Dice is just going out on random idea orgies now...

Anyways. Planewhore, what exactly did you predict? "IO" concept wasn't a hot button issue, hell, I didn't even know it was going on. Vehicle balance crys, maybe, but complete removal on "ALL" maps? Not so much.

{WP}Paas

The cartillery must have been an after thought of seeing the screenshot of Quake Wars. I mean, it was really a pain having to run all over the map because some noob drove the only vehicle and never bothered to take anyone with them. As far as the game modes, Conquest is basically Team Death Match and Capture The Flag in 1. WHo can say with any accuracy anymore at this point.

I think the request for IO was more of an implied one rather than a direct one. In fact, I would venture to say that it came by way of all the posts on here and on the EA boards about how "tank/plane/chopper whores have no skill". In order to make an effort to please that particular segment of the community, the ones that prefer to play half the game by not using any vehicles in an effort to help their team win; and in return call the ones that play the full game (with vehicles) whores, stat padders and cheaters, etc.
Your post sounds like it is on the correct path and not far fetched at all.

Talus makes a good point too. The IO maps should have had their spawn points rearranged in some strategic and/or thoughtful manner instead of just removing all mode of transportation. Ladders should have been added to some buildings and some kit limitations should have been implemented.

[WolfAlmighty]

Re: Assault = Impossible?

The cartillery must have been an after thought of seeing the screenshot of Quake Wars. I mean, it was really a pain having to run all over the map because some noob drove the only vehicle and never bothered to take anyone with them. As far as the game modes, Conquest is basically Team Death Match and Capture The Flag in 1. WHo can say with any accuracy anymore at this point.

I think the request for IO was more of an implied one rather than a direct one. In fact, I would venture to say that it came by way of all the posts on here and on the EA boards about how "tank/plane/chopper whores have no skill". In order to make an effort to please that particular segment of the community, the ones that prefer to play half the game by not using any vehicles in an effort to help their team win; and in return call the ones that play the full game (with vehicles) whores, stat padders and cheaters, etc.
Your post sounds like it is on the correct path and not far fetched at all.

Talus makes a good point too. The IO maps should have had their spawn points rearranged in some strategic and/or thoughtful manner instead of just removing all mode of transportation. Ladders should have been added to some buildings and some kit limitations should have been implemented.

For IO mode to have truly been a success (meaning, fun for EVERYONE to play) a lot of changes and tweaks would have had to have been made to all the maps, kits, and weapon loadouts, and even the infantry combat physics. All of this would have taken much time, though, and IMO could almost qualify as a separate game entirely but if done right would have rawked. Instead, they simply put in an option to click a box and remove all vehicles and Bob's your uncle, you have IO mode. Without making the necessary balance changes to the classes and maps to accommodate the lack of vehicles, making what is now IO is essentially a waste of time better spent on making the current BF2 situation (e.g. J-10/F35B, STA lock on range, etc.) more balanced and better for everyone.

My 2¢.

~Wolfgang

[~WPN~Major Ursa]

Re: Assault = Impossible?

For IO mode to have truly been a success (meaning, fun for EVERYONE to play) a lot of changes and tweaks would have had to have been made to all the maps, kits, and weapon loadouts, and even the infantry combat physics. All of this would have taken much time, though, and IMO could almost qualify as a separate game entirely but if done right would have rawked. Instead, they simply put in an option to click a box and remove all vehicles and Bob's your uncle, you have IO mode. Without making the necessary balance changes to the classes and maps to accommodate the lack of vehicles, making what is now IO is essentially a waste of time better spent on making the current BF2 situation (e.g. J-10/F35B, STA lock on range, etc.) more balanced and better for everyone.

My 2¢.

~Wolfgang

You are on the right track Wolfgang, but it would have required VERY little to have made IO work. All that had to be done was to remove the offensive only vehicles. Tanks/APCs/Attack helos/Jets and mobile AA. You could have even left out the Blackhawk and the MEC transport chopper if you wanted. The buggies, HMMVs, Vodniks and other wheeled transport vehicles should have stayed. This would still require engys to repair them and AT guys to kill them.

BUT, this didn't happen. I would say that you will se a return to unranked IO where the server side modifications to remove offensive vehicles is turned on. The current IO mode we have been given seems to pale in comparison to the IO mode that could have been had on unranked servers all along.

[Paas]

Re: Assault = Impossible?

I hope someone from Dice is taking notes! :P

{WP}Paas

P.S. - ...and I expect to be paid for my... hell, I expect to be paid for everyone's services. Especially mine though.

[7eregrine]

Re: Assault = Impossible?

Wow did you guys get OFF-TOPIC. I believe (and I couldn't stand to read much past page 2) the REAL LIFE comment only meant ... y'know as compared to UNREAL TOURNEY or QUAKE 4. Yes it's arcadish, but it has a more "realistic" feel then any of the previous games I mentioned.

As for the "arty sux" comment... oy. It's a tool. A damn good one in the right hands.

[DesertFalcon]

Re: Assault = Impossible?

IO sucks its only for people who care about points.

[WolfAlmighty]

Re: Assault = Impossible?

You are on the right track Wolfgang, but it would have required VERY little to have made IO work. All that had to be done was to remove the offensive only vehicles. Tanks/APCs/Attack helos/Jets and mobile AA. You could have even left out the Blackhawk and the MEC transport chopper if you wanted. The buggies, HMMVs, Vodniks and other wheeled transport vehicles should have stayed. This would still require engys to repair them and AT guys to kill them.

BUT, this didn't happen. I would say that you will se a return to unranked IO where the server side modifications to remove offensive vehicles is turned on. The current IO mode we have been given seems to pale in comparison to the IO mode that could have been had on unranked servers all along.

I do agree that adding unarmed transport vehicles would be a step in the right direction, but it would still leave a lot to be desired as far as class balancing go. Here's some things that I would do to make IO more fun:

•Since the only vehicles that would be there would be unarmed ones and the only way to kill someone with one would be to run them over, you really wouldn't get much use out of an AT rocket (not to mention how the buggy hit detection usually causes rockets to go clean through speeding Vodniks and FAVs anyway), and by the same token since the only vehicles that would be around would be transport which, I'm assuming, would be fairly plentiful there wouldn't be much need for repairing them. Therefore, I would combine AT and Engineer classes into the 'Vehicle' class. Give them both AT mines and AT rockets, keep the wrench, take away the body armour, and give them a choice of weapon loadouts between shotguns (engineer default) or SMGs (AT default). With no vehicles there'd be no need for this class at all, but with just light vehicles there's no need for two anti-vehicle classes with short-ranged infantry weapons, so they would need more perks to make them a desirable class. Combining the two would do the trick.
•Combine Assault and Medic, and take away their ability to revive teammates. Give them body armour. Medic already is, essentially, the pseudo-assault class anyway, so why not make it official? Just give them body armour and call it done, but take away the ability to resurrect teammates in battle. This would put more emphasis on keeping the squad leader alive and also prevent it from being an overpowered class (which medic is in IO mode, no use denying it).
•Combine Spec Ops and Sniper class, giving them both C4 and claymores and allow them to choose between either a carbine or a sniper rifle. Basically make this the sabotage class, but make claymores both destructable by explosives again and make them FF-on only. For shorter-visibility maps like Karkand people would choose the carbines and for longer-ranged maps they would probably choose the sniper rifle.
•Keep support the same as it is now, but allow them to deploy their LMG as a mounted MG. I've mentioned this idea before a LONG time ago (back when LMGs were still ridiculously inaccurate) and I still think it would have merit, even moreso in an IO mode. The LMG could be on a tripod and have a full 360° motion, but unlike the typical mounted MG it only has one full clip on it and has to be resupplied via ammo pack before it can be reloaded. When deployed (which would take about 5 seconds to prevent it from being abused by having it an instant thing) ANYONE can use it and it has the same accuracy/recoil as a regular mounted MG would, but the support trooper wouldn't be able to use his LMG until he picks it back up again. Like how mortars worked in BF:V. Combining this with my insta-prone suggestion (below) would make support a defensive class only as they're intended, but a damned good one, and wouldn't step on assault/medic's toes at all.
•Take away supply crates. This makes people rely on their teammates for ammo and health, and commander assets would need to be better protected (also giving another need for the Vehicle class).
•Reduce the splash radius on hand grenades. This would instantly cut down on many of the complaints about nade spam. Splash radius on hand nades should be reduced to just a little larger than what a GL nade is right now.
•Reduce the amount of cone-of-fire/deviation on all guns across the board, barring the standing/crouching deviation of LMGs which would be fine as it is now. If guns were more accurate there would also be less need for nade spam since the guns themselves would be more lethal.
•Eliminate insta-prone accuracy. When you hit the prone key, your accuracy will be the same as that as if you were jumping (back when you could still jump and shoot) for about 2-3 seconds and it will then settle down into the best possible accuracy. BF1942 and BF:V veterans will remember this feature well. Proning would only be used as a defensive position, not a 'come-around-the-corner-and-belly-flop-against-someone-5-feet-away' position.

Some of the class combination features I believe are occurring in BF2142 (correct me if I'm wrong, though...I haven't read much on BF2142 TBH) but in a mode where a big chunk of the initial BF2 game has been taken out there isn't as much need for class diversity, so I think we could do with just 4 classes.

Just a few of my thoughts. Of course, it goes without saying that it would be great if they could reduce hit detection errors and shabby netcode, but that's probably a whole other story.

~Wolfgang

[imported_Dr.D]

Re: Assault = Impossible?

They shouldn't have removed artillary from IO. Infantry only still has guns/tow/uav/scanner/supply-drop in it, so I fail to see how that's "infantry only".

Artillary would make IO much better.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooo!

[rangedrecon]

Re: Assault = Impossible?

I think some chute' limitations would need to be in order. Such as only allowing Assault oriented troops to chute' in (Spec Ops, Assault to be more specific). Therefore adding a tactical agility to gound assaults and ambushes, while giving a "USE" for the two classes that seemed to have been graced with the short end of the stick in terms of the new IO mode.

pure genius less random snipers and medics raining down to kill you only assualt should do that

[Lazza66]

Re: Assault = Impossible?

The maps just aren't suitable. Having modded many maps for DC and SH, including some infantry only I became aware of the particular requirements.

Some sort of transport vehicles were still essential to breakthrough areas that a group could use to bottleneck the whole map, in a way I'd never thought of or seen (through testing with bots and my daughter). I added coop / single player support and AI for the testing, a lot of work.

The maps had to be just right, and if I was screening BF2 maps for possible IO modding, I would only consider Sharqi, Mashtuur, Karkand, Wake, and now Jalalabad. From hundreds of free downloadable BF'42 maps I found around a dozen that were very good infantry only.

Argon Forest was my favourite, modded with Silent Heroes, and only transport vehicles, awesome map. My favourite DC infantry only conversion was a map named Shima Senjou, an awesome wee island. I'd be stoked if ppl looked at these maps and compared them to BF2 IO maps, you would instantly know exactly what makes a good IO map.

But even those great battle maps, in the context of stats and points whorage would be doomed. It would be so easy just to sit back and clock up points that players would be quite happy just to lie back and do just that.

Despite the things I've been called here I do enjoy the variety and challenge of different game modes and styles, enough so to make my own mini mods in the past. But the IO mode as offered by DICE Canada just leaks like a sieve, and the stats system just adds to the problem.

[MrBenis]

Re: Assault = Impossible?

A compromise would have been 5 minutes between each arty volley (shoulda been that way to start with, frankly).

Its total removal is just stupid.