Counter Battery Firemission Completed!

[Heavy552 AWG]

Enemy got artied a few times he complains.

He then tries to learn arty with direct fire within a few hundred feet shooting like armor.

But has not yet learned how to shoot with Commander's Satellite.

Range 840 yards + Heavy's own artillery = Victory.

[spitsfreeman]

Re: Counter Battery Firemission Completed!

I like using the Commander's Satellite to arty, not got many shots over 700 nice one.

[RocketPunch]

Re: Counter Battery Firemission Completed!

This will probably probably be eliminated in the next update. The CO view was never intended to help you aim arti.

see link: http://www.pointofexistence.com/foru...showtopic=9666

[Heavy552 AWG]

Re: Counter Battery Firemission Completed!

Take away the artillery completely and make everything all armor and vehicles.

What then is the commander to do with one stinking supply box and orders/map for squad leaders no one listens to?

In fact, trash the satellites too. Make the game pure without technology and it will be just another BF1942.

There are probably a few players who have the mental and coordination required to rapidly engage targets at any point in the map without simple pixel shooting a single spot on the sky. Artillery is dynamic and fluid. The situation changes minute to minute.

Yes the commander gets a few points for some kills.

I have had the pleasure of seeing my own team advance against a base that is a very strong one. They bring platoons of tanks, APC's and heli/air support and about 20 or so total advances against this base 500 yards away. Let's use the Ukraninan-Held "Bridge" base in the Rolling Thunder Map on POE as an example.

Here is a strong hold with many enemies preparing to face the German onslaught. As a commander, I am quite concerned with the enemy Anti air, armor and of course the other vehicles/infantry getting the welcome mat out to destroy my advancing german forces.

I zoom in with the satellite view fire a shell and it lands over and beyond the Bridge base a few hundred feet. The enemy activity pauses a moment when all hear that boom.

What is more, My own team actually stopped and waited as I found the range, wiped the base out and the team stormed it as on cue and took it within a few seconds when I stopped the artillery.

Shifting the fight back towards THIER default which was about 1000 yards required me to get the artillery into harms way to reduce the range to 700 or less to engage the waves of armor flowing forth from the Ukranian default.

The entire map was touch and go. Tickets fell steadily. Victory was uncertan.

The Ukraninans began to hunt for the artillery creating a need to bring up Airdefense assets and some infantry to protect the artillery but not taking too much from the team.

In the end we won the game. because we had:

1- Good support

2- Good organization

3- Ventrillo teamspeak

4- Everyone working together all arms instead of being uber rambo

5- despite all being strangers and probably playing together for the first time, all teamed up. (Hard for enemy to destroy 4 Battle Tanks manned by Engineers and backed by a supply crate)

Later in the day, I was in MEC Karkand in vanilla as a commander. Two LAV's and one tank pulled into Hotel by the spawn on that side street and started whoring kills off my Mec infantry who does not know better than to spawn else where as anti tanker.

I placed the Arty Icon on the armor all three with thier support enginners and supply boxes and fired it.

Wiped out the tank, one LAV and got a kill assist off an damaged LAV and killing quite a few infantry. I noticed the artillery in that case fell straight down instead of the trajectory in POE. The artillery is random in Vanilla and a little bit random in POE.

The difference is that POE artillery actually reacts to buildings, hills and trees and sometimes infantry can shelter on the opposite side and survive even the most serious attention of the arty.

The POE team needs to seriously consider using Laser designators for team mates who are not commander to point at a target, so that the artillery gunner can select "Copperhead" or equivilant from his availible ammunition and engage the target. Both the laser designator and gunner should share in the kill knowing that target destroyed, rounds complete.

They need to also seriously consider tossing the binocular concept. No one uses it and the time they try it they die due to a variety of enemy actions seeing a single soldier standing still for a few seconds.

The binocular concept does NOT work for me because of the crappy "Follow the shell" concept of aiming. I recall DC where you adjusted the artillery a little bit but the "Swing" you suffered in the view following the view was too much and it is easier to "Pixel" shoot a section of the sky to get the required shells onto a target base.

In Novalogic we had Mortors. Joint Operations was a game that had a Mortor. During Beta testing we were allowed 20 rounds with a self targeting system on the spin map with a dot that you placed anywhere on the map up to 515 yards.

The shells would fall within a certain radius of the dot and had the explosive equivilant of 60mm.

During the beta I rapid fired 10 at a particularly "Stuffed" base and completely destroyed 20+ infantry inside. Immediately when the stream of HEAVY552(AWG)KiLLED SO AND SO stopped, they cut the 10 rounds down to just 4. Added the nerf to the range from 515 down to about 450'sh and then added a mortor animation that seriously slowed down the setting up and firing.

We just added more mortors. Soon everyone was spamming mortors. Clays were the primary means of defense against rapers. VERY profitable.

Eventually mortormen caught in the open had to use the binoculars to find the range to the camping enemy APC, set up the mortor tube and fire at that range killing or seriously damage the APC. That my friends is the ultimate in skill in the arts of artillery. It is the same procedure used in real life.

They wanted to nerf that too. Bleah.

The culture of nerfting or taking away assets that are effective needs to stop. If you build a modern day video game of war, you will need to have big maps, plenty of people with accurate weapons systems and things in Artillery, satellite and other assets that they can depend on to assist them in moments of danger in battle.

The team that uses all arms in combat properly and moves forward forcing the enemy to react to them or simply accrue deaths is the team that wins.

What will I do if they did take away the arty? Well... I'll probably go back to bombing the be-jezus out of the enemy with a bomber deep behind enemy lines because it will be the last effective "Deep Strike" weapon in a role of disrupting, destroying and denying the enemy the ability to deploy to the MAIN front line in battle.

That my friends is the path to victory.

Only... I refuse to fly because there will be teamkillers, forced teamkills and other smaktardism to suffer on take off even if you got into a plane or heli. There are whole forums full on the internet about this so I wont visit this further.

Otherwise the game will just be a endless wave wash-rinse-repeat of world war one trench warfare... over the top, die, spawn over the top again, die, spawn BORING.

Another thing about the artillery work.. it gets very hot in that gunmount. Mentally hot. You have up to 4 bases under attack, all calling for arty support you have just one gun and a bunch of shells.

Working from base to base and moving as necessary to defend yourself against enemy artillery seeking to kill YOU. is very stressful. After about 20 minutes I realized that we had gained dominance on the map and only two bases were problems while everything else died coming out of enemy default. Then it was a matter of waiting for tickets to fall to 0.

Another time, I was near the middle of bases firing missions as required. The enemy took a base "Over My right shoulder only 200 yards behind me" I swung the lumbering artillery around and by the time I set up the enemy had advanced past and into the next base in the rear while armor came out of the base in the middle of the map and bringing my artillery under direct fire.

Oh am in deep do-do now Heavy what do do? what do I do?

Go to the drivers seat, retreat almost to default, set up all over again behind a hill arranging for the team to meet the threatened rapage that was developing. The helicopters came, tanks showed up, anti tank infantry set up... APC's ran here and there and it was pure war for a few moments.. there was a gunner in the arty then firing directly over the big barrel with me in the driver's seat scanning maps and giving orders in text.

After the bases were re-taken and we started to advance again it was almost over for that game. But we were in the frying pan for a few minutes.

The moral of my story is this:

Take away or nerf anything in a game destroys the rest of the team. The commander in POE is nerfted so much that no one uses it in Infantry only maps. To sit and spam "Enemy spotted" is not commanding. To toss a box where there are 5 support whores sprinking supply boxes is not commanding. Telling the team to take this base while 30 people are already halfway to that base is not commanding.

I might as well contemplate my navel sitting near a campfire singing Kumbaya for all the good the commander does in Infantry only maps and certain other modes like "Front-line"

For those who are still reading after this lengthly posting, thanks.

I only know how to fight what I can see inside a game and if something works great. If not, IT NEEDS TO BE FIXED. If they intend to nueter the arty or otherwise nerft it I gaurantee there will be more pixel shooting or worse, no one uses it until a giggling spec ops hop in and plinks everything around it with one shot multipule kills.

I warn the developers to be careful what they do to a game product. I point to simulations of what is possible with today's gaming and also point to arcade games where children dream at pwnage.

Sure easy to nerf or adjust or configure for the good of all... but what you are really doing is taking away that item which works in battle. Why? People dont understand arty. They whine about it. They die and look at the kill chat to see what happened. Oh I got killed by arty. Where the **** was that arty? AT HIS DEFAULT? 500 yards away? OH NOES! This game SUX! I must complain about it on the forums so they take the arty away.

What about the 4 battle tanks 100 yards away all manned by engineers storming the poor whiner's base who is angry about one death to a artillery shell? What do we do then? Huh? Tell me that.

Take away or modify one thing, then do the rest as well.

[*{82nd)*Commando]

Re: Counter Battery Firemission Completed!

WOW! Most impressive!!!!

I agree 110%! Nice job, and it all being so so true.

[troybob]

Re: Counter Battery Firemission Completed!

Commander arty is lame. Glad they're fixing it.

Kudos POE. Also put in some dynamic skies to ward off pixel shooting.

Anyone who thinks commander-arty is legit obviously doesn't care about what the game is supposed to be all about.

[imported_Master Shake]

Re: Counter Battery Firemission Completed!

Commander arty is lame. Glad they're fixing it.

Kudos POE. Also put in some dynamic skies to ward off pixel shooting.

Anyone who thinks commander-arty is legit obviously doesn't care about what the game is supposed to be all about.

Agreed,....imagine all the vanilla stat padders will have to learn how to use team work to win a map instead of working together to increase the amount of points they have and earn a rank in an imaginary world.....

Commander abusing the arty is lame...

[Heavy552 AWG]

Re: Counter Battery Firemission Completed!

Let's say they do nerf or fat finger the coding to **** up the artillery.

That will represent a gigantic slap in the face of those who understand the role Artillery plays in modern war. As well as confirming a culture of ignorance and desire to nueter or cultivate the whiners/complainers who cannot accept or understand such a potent weapons system in a game world.

I for one have already said my peice supporting the Commander's method and should they remove it or screw up the artillery then I think that video games has indeed crossed a very important line between simulation and arcade for the worse.

Bottom Line, IM DAMN GLAD we were able to use the arty in this way instead of the totally useless and cumbersome POE Issued Manual at Arms for the Artillery. No one uses the spotting and the inherent aiming design presented to the gunner "Following the Shell" is crap to begin with.

A moment in the sun using a weapons system properly with good fidelity to real life artillery is worth a 1000 days in ignorance or lack of understanding about the nature of video games and development of everything within such games in today's culture of arcadish games.

[Barone]

Re: Counter Battery Firemission Completed!

Let's say they do nerf or fat finger the coding to **** up the artillery.

That will represent a gigantic slap in the face of those who understand the role Artillery plays in modern war. As well as confirming a culture of ignorance and desire to nueter or cultivate the whiners/complainers who cannot accept or understand such a potent weapons system in a game world.

I for one have already said my peice supporting the Commander's method and should they remove it or screw up the artillery then I think that video games has indeed crossed a very important line between simulation and arcade for the worse.

Bottom Line, IM DAMN GLAD we were able to use the arty in this way instead of the totally useless and cumbersome POE Issued Manual at Arms for the Artillery. No one uses the spotting and the inherent aiming design presented to the gunner "Following the Shell" is crap to begin with.

A moment in the sun using a weapons system properly with good fidelity to real life artillery is worth a 1000 days in ignorance or lack of understanding about the nature of video games and development of everything within such games in today's culture of arcadish games.

Heavy,

I've read your posts and the responses. As it stands right now, I'm on the fence about arty use in POE2. I've played some PoE2 and have enjoyed it thoroughly, but haven't yet been (at least to my knowledge) in a game where arty was being used effectively by either side. Tried some spotting and saw a teammate driving the arty around aimlessly--that was it.

What servers do you frequent? I'd like to see your arguments in action regarding the usefulness/impact of arty on the game. Also, I'd appreciate the chance to learn. Although I've read your other posts about employing the arty, seeing it in action would help a lot.

Thanks.

[Heavy552 AWG]

Re: Counter Battery Firemission Completed!

Heavy,

I've read your posts and the responses. As it stands right now, I'm on the fence about arty use in POE2. I've played some PoE2 and have enjoyed it thoroughly, but haven't yet been (at least to my knowledge) in a game where arty was being used effectively by either side. Tried some spotting and saw a teammate driving the arty around aimlessly--that was it.

What servers do you frequent? I'd like to see your arguments in action regarding the usefulness/impact of arty on the game. Also, I'd appreciate the chance to learn. Although I've read your other posts about employing the arty, seeing it in action would help a lot.

Thanks.

Some of us get together on Ventrillo to play POE some nights of every week in the early evening. I will PM you after I clear my chores for the day with the server information and hopefully you can see the Artillery being used as it should be used by the commander. I would be happy to provide you with the oppertunity to learn if that is what you want.

The only problem I have at this time is the lack of Full Version Fraps or other third party recording programs to capture video and process it for Youtube or similar to post here to help those understand what artillery is all about in POE.

I would like nothing better than to invest the 30 dollars or so for such a program and produce a video of a typical POE server night while on the artillery possibly complete with ventrillo converstations during the various fire missions against enemy bases, enemy armor and enemy infantry taking bases.

me thinks I better do it soon before they do update the POE and trash that particular weapons system.

[Barone]

Re: Counter Battery Firemission Completed!

Some of us get together on Ventrillo to play POE some nights of every week in the early evening. I will PM you after I clear my chores for the day with the server information and hopefully you can see the Artillery being used as it should be used by the commander. I would be happy to provide you with the oppertunity to learn if that is what you want.

The only problem I have at this time is the lack of Full Version Fraps or other third party recording programs to capture video and process it for Youtube or similar to post here to help those understand what artillery is all about in POE.

I would like nothing better than to invest the 30 dollars or so for such a program and produce a video of a typical POE server night while on the artillery possibly complete with ventrillo converstations during the various fire missions against enemy bases, enemy armor and enemy infantry taking bases.

me thinks I better do it soon before they do update the POE and trash that particular weapons system.

Thanks, sounds good.

A video would be awesome. And a convincing argument.

I also check the AWG site now and then if you want to post the information there.

[Heavy552 AWG]

Re: Counter Battery Firemission Completed!

Thanks, sounds good.

A video would be awesome. And a convincing argument.

I also check the AWG site now and then if you want to post the information there.

I will have to do alot of learning on the video side but will generate a video asap just dont know when it will be out.

I noticed some people using the word "Stat padding" or equivilant to denote actions by use of artillery in POE to gain large amounts of kills.

I say that does not apply here because POE does not have stats to collect and show. They will have an alternative ranking system at some point in the future.

Also the artillery has a chance to stop a large force of enemies cold and sometimes generates very large amounts of kills. I lay this on the opposing team who has not taken the time to find and shut down the artillery.

There will always be one to three heros on every team that does thier very best and utmost to identify and destroy the most dangerous people or weapons in a given game situation. These are the leaders of our world and they know what needs to be done. The rest can learn by example and thier leadership.

I suspect it goes deeper than screaming "PADDER!" It might actually be a frusteration that an opponet feels when rolling into a base defended by artilery from a great distance and gets destroyed or so badly damaged as to become exposed to counter attack.

I propose that the team wishing to get into town and take the base take a moment to scout out and destroy the artillery by airstrike or counterbattery fire. But that might be too much work and effort taking away from the simple shooting of dozens of infantry near you for those wonderful "Stats"

Artillery remains a very useful componet of all weapons systems availible to a player in POE today. It is a part of a team when used properly.

You may not find much on the AWG website except a link to the POE site which I recently registered to carry on the fight to keep the POE artillery the way it is for the commander. There are about 7 very good threads going on with both sides saying strong positions for or against the arty every day.

[troybob]

Re: Counter Battery Firemission Completed!

Let's say they do nerf or fat finger the coding to **** up the artillery.

That will represent a gigantic slap in the face of those who understand the role Artillery plays in modern war. As well as confirming a culture of ignorance and desire to nueter or cultivate the whiners/complainers who cannot accept or understand such a potent weapons system in a game world.

i think you're misunderstanding. They're not going to remove the arty, just make it work the way it was intended - with a spotter.

Once someone spots, you'll still be able to do the EXACT same thing you're doing now.

[Heavy552 AWG]

Re: Counter Battery Firemission Completed!

i think you're misunderstanding. They're not going to remove the arty, just make it work the way it was intended - with a spotter.

Once someone spots, you'll still be able to do the EXACT same thing you're doing now.

I understand that. The current system does not work. The essence of artillery is gravity. You fire a round and it will travel a given distance for elevation.

You need two things:

Range to target down to 10 yards.

Observation of effect of artillery.

One artillery weapon area firing in the general direction of the enemy will not be effective. Many artilleries firing will probably generate enough coverage to do damage to the enemy in the target area.

If there is to be only one artillery weapon and you already have a nerfted commander who has only the satellite view and a supply drop capability then give him the arty.

Otherwise the artillery will be nerfted and reduced to either one of two things:

Driving into battle like another tank but with a really big gun.

or

Sitting somewhere spamming at a base that may or may not be hit. (Or even have enemies in it)

It is a valuable resource and must not be wasted pounding a field with just grass growing in it and no way for the gunner to understand what he or she is shooting at.

You might as well toss the artillery into the trash bin after this nerf is done by POE. What will happen? No one spots, gunner sits bored. Nothing gets killed.

Therefore POE Artillery becomes the ultimate removal of the hated BF2 artillery that kills Friendlys and enemy alike in unrealistic ways if they do nerf it.

Today you have predator UAV's with onboard cameras, Helicopters with gun cameras aircraft with missile cameras and tanks with gunsights. What needs to be done to keep the artillery effective is to issue the Infantry man a laser guidiance system such as "Copperhead" and given kill credit equal to what the gunner in the arty gets for killing a enemy marked target.

Also a data network within the game needs to be built tying the commander into every vehicle into the battle. Today's military uses various data networks where a M1a1 Tank gunner can see a target, identify it, locate it down to a few inches on the globe.. the commander of the tank transmits that information back to friendly artillery in his rear who then responds to the fire mission request. The target gets destroyed in a few moments done.

The purity of using the artillery and the satellite to simulate all of that activity is good. But very mentally demanding with a high level of skill to get that artillery round onto a target.

60 seconds provided by the current spot is not long enough. Worse, the 60 seconds goes by and the enemy tank that got spotted is no longer there, he literally has driven away and you have no way of seeing where he is next. The infantry that spotted the tank for you is most likely dead and no one else is going to understand the situation long enough to get a new spot on the tank.

With each spot three problems need solving.

1- WHERE IS THE SPOT ... pull up the map and see. Reference it to the nearest base to determine roughly the range.

2- Fire at the spot after you dail in the correct gun elevation with necessary traverse adjustments to point the whole thing in that spotted target;s direction.

3- Determine the error of the shot. Is it over? Is it short? Is it even on the spotted map? Did it go off and kill a teammate on the way to the target? If you are off by 100 yards you will NEVER hear the shell or understand what is happening to that shell relative to the target.

by the time you understand the success or failure of the target spotted firemission the enemy most likely will have traveled to the next base resulting in a whole new fire mission to be started from stratch.

Good gunners are able to get fire power delivered on target by the third round. That happens very quickly in time. maybe 10 seconds. But the wonderful mistake that POE made was to allow the commander's satellite view to provide a STABLE viewing platform of the target and saving teammate's lives if they should approach the enemy while you are firing at him.

"Following the shot" may be visually exciting to a child firing artillery but is totally destructive to the gunner who desires to place the round on target using error correction to finish the target. The developers who orginated the POE manual of following the shot did not understand that artillery is not about following the shell, it's about where it went and what corrections to make to get the second one delivered on target, on time.

Regular pixel shooting spamming at a enemy base or target area only generates a group of shells falling about 100-200 yards radius AROUND the base and everyone inside feels safe and unthreatened by the artillery. Boom bomm boom bomm.... after a while it fades to background noise of war and becomes ear or eye candy to nearby players.

But should a group of infantry or a tank or two get lasered and a shell is on the way TO THAT SPECIFIC spot down to a few inches of error they should be very afraid of impending death. Likely such a laser designator will provide a warning to vehicles equippted with sensors and possible visual shooting will provide early warning to infantry when the first shell lands nearby.

The enemy should under stand at that point that they are now being looked at by artillery and the second or third shell will kill them if they dont take action. Usually it is getting out of the target area. Sometimes it's communicating the danger to other teammates flying a attack chopper or aircarft with bombs and might be in the location of the artillery firing and kill it. Or even tanks hearing the multipule booms of the artillery firing and moving to kill it. Perhaps a spec ops driving a jeep knows where it is and it placing C4 on it.

The best way to remove enemy artillery is to have your artillery FIND IT when it is on the march to it's chosen firing point and kill it before it slaughters a whole bunch of your teammates and stops your entire team's attack in it's tracks. This is something that Aircraft and helis are unwilling to do. They want to fly straight to the nearest large group of enemies and wipe em all out in the almighty name of stats.

Ive had MANY enemy air units pass near my artillery unit making me concerned that possible the next pass they make is a bombing run to destroy the arty. But no... they are trying to get to the default to rape and kill many children that failed to GET out of the default into battle.

Suppose you assigned 50 points global to artillery and have it credited to the airman who kills one. Suddenly the mass of targets in default will be worth nothing and ALL effort will be invested in raping the artillery peice for loads and loads of points.

The previous paragraph illustrates the need for gamers to make alot of points for thier efforts in the game. The game has tickets that determine win or loss. Each kill or flag taken is worth tickets. Sometimes the game has a TIMER that renders tickets irrevelant. Sometimes with no timer tickets can be stopped with the goal of acquiring awards padding etc.... that my friends is NOT what a war game should be about.

I type about different battle scenarios as they happened in the POE to this date and all present a problem to the player using the artillery.

That is why I say, make it effective and useable by ONE player if NO one else participates or REMOVE IT entirely and use the saved resources for something else that will be used by the players effectively in the game.

[jilted]

Re: Counter Battery Firemission Completed!

When we introduced artillery and a spotter to POE, we had no idea that commanders could/would use them this way.

Thus, us removing this ability is just fufilling our original intention (if we do so).