air combat (a2a, g2a)

[SvnTwoo]

Re: air combat (a2a, g2a)

jets suck..............

maps with no jets rock...............

that's all I got to say.............

---------------------------

summed up...
a. I can't fly cause I suck.
b. Jets own me all the time... I hate them....
c. please flame me... cause I'm a ***....

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: air combat (a2a, g2a)

actually what i was reffering to was the fact that either the hitboxes or the aa missiles are screwed up in regaurd to jets. if they have the right angle of turn, some jets like the j10 can avoid missiles that are on cource to hit them. the missiles flying up to the engine and then miss, this isnt dodging.

Some theories say that its not actually only the hitbox meshes, but also the heatsource. Theres a good comparision pic, where the heatsource for te J10 is inside the body, and F35Bs is right out at the back and in the open. So the missiles dont have a chance to seeing it when they get too close and they miss. In 1.2 this was fixed because the missiles had a wider lock-angle so they didnt lose the target from its sights. I think it was somewhere then lowered and now we have what we have now.

if the missiles turn rate was lower, wouldnt that create a "perfect shot oppertunity" scenario?

Thats what I though at first, but there are several issues.

First Pre 1.2 was set to 3/3 (pitch and yaw), right now its set to 15/15. When I set it to 5/5, it was still as good as 15/15 was. So its hard to finetune when total miss and total hit numbers are so close.

Secondly, if we start to finetune this, this will all fall down to which jet has better turn radius, so well have a situation where F35B cant outtturn a missile and J10 can.

a pilot that knows where all the static aa is, and where the essex is, can cannon it far before the aa platform gets a lock, decreasing the a2g radar range, would not help the situation. where as if aa had long range, they could effectivly combat those pilots. what i meant to say by maximum visual range was basically that if a jet pilot can see me, i want to be able to lock onto him.

No. Now what youre proposing here is a neverending scenario where pilots get better and better and statis-AA gets beefed and beefed. And where does it end? You know, at some point, people who really want to use static AA as an offensive weapon, have to start working on their skills to use one like that. Otherwise, its a defensive weapon and dont expect a lot of kills with it.

the modern attack chopper is designed to be a long range anti-armor missile platform. it would simply be fufilling its role.
um im lost, i dont understand what you are saying, why isnt the turn rate the most important thing again?

But its still a close in air rupport vehicle. And BF2 maps represent a whole battlefield. In real life choppers dont fire missiles over the whole country, you know?

[Roger Smith]

Re: air combat (a2a, g2a)

Some theories say that its not actually only the hitbox meshes, but also the heatsource.

as long as it gets fixed.

Secondly, if we start to finetune this, this will all fall down to which jet has better turn radius, so well have a situation where F35B cant outtturn a missile and J10 can.

why not make it so they can both outrun them but its just easier for the j10?

at some point, people who really want to use static AA as an offensive weapon, have to start working on their skills to use one like that. Otherwise, its a defensive weapon and dont expect a lot of kills with it.

it doesnt really surve the purpose of defending an area, if the enemy can fly freely in that area at mid level.

But its still a close in air rupport vehicle. And BF2 maps represent a whole battlefield. In real life choppers dont fire missiles over the whole country, you know?

the hellfire missile has a range of 8000 miles.

The attack helicopter has two main roles: first, to provide direct and accurate close air support for ground troops, and second, to destroy enemy armor behind enemy lines.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: air combat (a2a, g2a)

as long as it gets fixed.

Its DICE.

why not make it so they can both outrun them but its just easier for the j10?

Why dont you propose 1.12 in the first place?! Im telling you. Its either a hit or not. You cant have it otherwise if you expect equality. Otherwise you have what you have now.

it doesnt really surve the purpose of defending an area, if the enemy can fly freely in that area at mid level.

Ooh, so you want the jets to circle around their uncaps or out of bounds just to not to be locked on to? Jesus Christ, have you ever flown a jet in BF2?

the hellfire missile has a range of 8000 miles.

Im sorry, I find that VERY hard to believe. Isnt Hellfire missile used to attack in 5 or so miles distance?

[Roger Smith]

Re: air combat (a2a, g2a)

Why dont you propose 1.12 in the first place?! Im telling you. Its either a hit or not. You cant have it otherwise if you expect equality. Otherwise you have what you have now.

you are probobly right, but i just think the aspect of aiming your missiles is lost on the current version, due to the high rate of turn on the aa missiles.

Ooh, so you want the jets to circle around their uncaps or out of bounds just to not to be locked on to? Jesus Christ, have you ever flown a jet in BF2?

no i want them to fly high till they aquire a target.

Im sorry, I find that VERY hard to believe. Isnt Hellfire missile used to attack in 5 or so miles distance?

whoops i think it was meters

AGM-114A Basic Hellfire
Range: 8,000 m (8,750 yd)

yer right 5 miles :) anyhow, 5 miles is quite alot, it seems entirely fair to tv from long range, even if the tv guide range is to be decreased.

[Turnip]

Re: air combat (a2a, g2a)

The current ground to air missiles are laughable against anyone with a remote bit of skill in an aircraft, I propose we make them TV guided instead of relying on a stupid computer to hit for us. Double or triple the speed of the helicopter TV missile, stick em on the AA, and keep everything else the same. Then people can actually get good at AA, which in the current system you cant. Still wouldnt be to fair for people on the ground with the carpet bombing that goes on but its a lot more fair than it is now.

And I think the reason people dont use it aside from it not being very effective is how boring it is to man them, this would fix that as well.

[Maxor127]

Re: air combat (a2a, g2a)

I agree with those changes. The AA is pretty much worthless. And a good pilot has a huge advantage. This is compounded by the fact that most placements are in the worst positions so you can't get a clear view of the air unless they're flying over you or on one specific side. Range should definitely be increased and actual AA vehicles should be on every air map. Of course, flares should have a good chance of deviating a missile, but if no flares are released then a missile should have an extremely high success rate in hitting... this isn't GI Joe where you can out fly a missile and guide it into a mountain. And seriously... one missile is all it should take to take out a plane. Just like one TOW can take out a tank in one shot.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: air combat (a2a, g2a)

The current ground to air missiles are laughable against anyone with a remote bit of skill in an aircraft, I propose we make them TV guided instead of relying on a stupid computer to hit for us. Double or triple the speed of the helicopter TV missile, stick em on the AA, and keep everything else the same. Then people can actually get good at AA, which in the current system you cant. Still wouldnt be to fair for people on the ground with the carpet bombing that goes on but its a lot more fair than it is now.

And I think the reason people dont use it aside from it not being very effective is how boring it is to man them, this would fix that as well.

Turnip, ever cruised around with the free cam in the spectate mode? That could be one hell of a system for a skill-based STA system.

Roger, BF2 maps are a scaled down versions of bigger battlefields. So 5 miles in real life would still be about 500 metres or so in BF2. The way it is now, its almost perfect and working.

As for STA sites. You cant make them good against jets without making them super-good against choppers. And they are just fine against choppers. For jets, maybe not so good, but once you get that shot off, its a direct hit, so I dont see a problem.

[Turnip]

Re: air combat (a2a, g2a)

STA?

Sorry can you explain what you mean a bit more.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: air combat (a2a, g2a)

STA?

Sorry can you explain what you mean a bit more.

Surface To Air.

And free spectate mode is where you cruise around the map with navigating with your mouse. My idea was like this-

Create a missile guidance system like the free spectate mode with a proximity meter somewhere on the screen so you can manually detonate the missile. You chase the jet, and if you think youre close enough, you detonate. One direct hit is one kill. Of course it has to be fairly restricted, because simple navigation in spectate mode and chasing jets there is fairly easy and simple.

[Roger Smith]

Re: air combat (a2a, g2a)

fair enough, im still not 100% on the aa missile balance. ima anylize what you wrote and try to figure out, ill post my findings.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: air combat (a2a, g2a)

fair enough, im still not 100% on the aa missile balance. ima anylize what you wrote and try to figure out, ill post my findings.

You can open up the AA missile files and check for yourself. If you need help with understanding on how the figures work or what they represent, ask away.

Ive been doing a lot of work, trying to find the missile balance. Correct missile balance is when they all work the same for every jet. And this brings it all down to a simple choice.

Working for all, or working for noone.

My last attempt was to create a 120 degree field of view equipped missile with pre 1.2 maneuverability, so that it wont catch up with jets in turns, but wont let go either... Im not sure if itll work out, but if THAT option wont work, then you really do have only 3 optins left for DICE.

1.12
1.2
Or fixing all jest heatsource and hitbox mesh.

[Roger Smith]

Re: air combat (a2a, g2a)

i was wondering, is this statement:

Im telling you. Its either a hit or not.

under the assumption that the heatsouces/hitboxes/meshes are or are not fixed?

it seems insane to try to balance jet combat out without getting that stuff fixed first.

[Chris_Redfield]

Re: air combat (a2a, g2a)

i was wondering, is this statement:
under the assumption that the heatsouces/hitboxes/meshes are or are not fixed?

it seems insane to try to balance jet combat out without getting that stuff fixed first.

Are not fixed. And well, I have no clue why they havent stepped on it. Hitbox and heatsource will not be fixed, judging by what is said.

[x_knight_x]

Re: air combat (a2a, g2a)

i fly the F35B a lot and i have no problems with a2a combat.